Post Cheltenham Blues

kfallon

Bring back the Cathcart Chase!!!!

longshotvalue

If we carry this to the max there really should only be a Champion Hurdle and Gold Cup as everything else is diluting it.

Making it shorter with no handicaps will make it impossible for anyone other than huge owners to get a winner (or even dream about it).

Owners need to think someday ill be there with a chance of the game will be fecked. Anyone who had a leg in a horse would give anything to win any of those races including amateur races and cross country. (that said at the moment even all those races are being won by the same owners, but at least other owners can have a runner with hope)

Anyone not excited by the prospect of going there for a days racing in march needs to find another sport. 3 4 or 5 days.

BumperD

This harping on about when it was three days , you will never hear the end of it. 4 days is fine. Not sure they could fill a fifth day , 4 is enough, if they want Saturday racing start Wednesday

The Mig

I like it at 4 days. Not old enough to remember it being 3 days (apart from that one year with the crazy wind).

Wednesday to Saturday could be interesting.

If they went that route, could they re-schedule the racecard for the Saturday to have a better quality race along with the Gold cup?

slimshady007

handsfree2 wrote: »

The champion hurdle was weak enough this year without this race. I hope it never appears.

Why do you think the Champion hurdle was so weak? I thought it was a cracking finish with Buveir Dair pulling out all the stops to defeat last year's supreme 2nd.

I guess you'd have to look at whether the Ballymore weakens the Supreme/AB, the JLT weakens the Arkle/RSA and the Ryanair weakens the Champion Chase/Gold Cup. In my opinion they don't so I don't think it would weaken the Champion Hurdle/Stayers but others will think different. The Ryanair wasnt particularly liked when it was introduced but it has produced some top quality winners and has become a respected grade 1.

mdwexford

aidankkk wrote: »

If we carry this to the max there really should only be a Champion Hurdle and Gold Cup as everything else is diluting it.

Making it shorter with no handicaps will make it impossible for anyone other than huge owners to get a winner (or even dream about it).

Owners need to think someday ill be there with a chance of the game will be fecked. Anyone who had a leg in a horse would give anything to win any of those races including amateur races and cross country. (that said at the moment even all those races are being won by the same owners, but at least other owners can have a runner with hope)

Anyone not excited by the prospect of going there for a days racing in march needs to find another sport. 3 4 or 5 days.

I enjoy the cross country as a spectacle and for something different. Every other race added since the 3 day festival I can do without.

Nobody said no handicaps. There was loads of competitive handicaps before.

slimshady007 wrote: »

Why do you think the Champion hurdle was so weak? I thought it was a cracking finish with Buveir Dair pulling out all the stops to defeat last year's supreme 2nd.

I guess you'd have to look at whether the Ballymore weakens the Supreme/AB, the JLT weakens the Arkle/RSA and the Ryanair weakens the Champion Chase/Gold Cup. In my opinion they don't so I don't think it would weaken the Champion Hurdle/Stayers but others will think different. The Ryanair wasnt particularly liked when it was introduced but it has produced some top quality winners and has become a respected grade 1.

The "Ballymore" has been around a lot longer than the slow boat Albert Bartlett.

That, the JLT and the Ryanair obviously weaken the other races. It's not even up for debate.

longshotvalue

mdwexford wrote: »

I enjoy the cross country as a spectacle and for something different. Every other race added since the 3 day festival I can do without.

Nobody said no handicaps. There was loads of competitive handicaps before.



The "Ballymore" has been around a lot longer than the slow boat Albert Bartlett.

That, the JLT and the Ryanair obviously weaken the other races. It's not even up for debate.

You probably right in that they added a couple of poorish races and could have made better decisions, like a 2m5f hurdle and maybe a veterans chase rather than the fred winter / mares novice. martin pipe etc.

Don't agree about the JLT or Ryanair, there is far too much between a 2 mile championship race and a 3m race and the intermediate distance is needed. I can think of only 1 time the ryanair had any effect on the gold cup and that was Vautour. I think the JLT makes more sense for novices than the RSA, and as the Gold Cup is a non standard 2 furlongs over the norm of 3 miles , that race is certainly needed as the number of gold cup horses can be counted on 1 hand any year.

danganabu

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

mdwexford wrote: »

Nobody said no handicaps.

That, the JLT and the Ryanair obviously weaken the other races. It's not even up for debate.

Yes it was suggested to have no handicaps as ludicrous and all as it would be, see above.

Of course it is up for debate and I for one don't agree.

WickIow Brave

Get rid of the Fred Winter, Martin Pipe, Kim Muir, Albert Bartlett, JLT, Make the Ryanair for first and second season Novices only like the Cathcart was, get rid of the Mares Novice Hurdle and replace it with a Mares Chase, go back to the old conditions of the 4 miler.

kiers47

WickIow Brave wrote: »

Get rid of the Fred Winter, Martin Pipe, Kim Muir, Albert Bartlett, JLT, Make the Ryanair for first and second season Novices only like the Cathcart was, get rid of the Mares Novice Hurdle and replace it with a Mares Chase, go back to the old conditions of the 4 miler.

I may be in the minority. But I actually think the Martin Pipe is a great addition and a great chance for the conditionals to have a winner at the festival. Would be sad if they scrapped that.
As for the other races you mention i couldn't disagree with. The Fred Winter is a horrendous race. The Mares Novice is also a scandalous event and has no place at the festival.

Also do you mean make the Ryanair a novice event? A second season novice is a horse who failed to win a race during their first season over that discipline. Making them still a novice.
Or do you mean make it for horses who had their Novice season the previous season and allow them to run in the Ryanair before stepping up the year after? Like Don Cossack done?

danganabu

kiers47 wrote: »

. The Fred Winter is a horrendous race. The Mares Novice is also a scandalous event and has no place at the festival.

I think even people like myself who think more is better and that 4 days is great, can agree with the above two superflous races that add nothing at all. 4 days with 6 races a day would be my preference.

WickIow Brave

kiers47 wrote: »

I may be in the minority. But I actually think the Martin Pipe is a great addition and a great chance for the conditionals to have a winner at the festival. Would be sad if they scrapped that.
As for the other races you mention i couldn't disagree with. The Fred Winter is a horrendous race. The Mares Novice is also a scandalous event and has no place at the festival.

Also do you mean make the Ryanair a novice event? A second season novice is a horse who failed to win a race during their first season over that discipline. Making them still a novice.
Or do you mean make it for horses who had their Novice season the previous season and allow them to run in the Ryanair before stepping up the year after? Like Don Cossack done?

Then I'd just make the Coral Cup or the Pertemps for conditionals. Probably the Pertemps.

Yes, I mean like when Don Cossack ran in it. He wouldn't be eligible the year after then when he ran in the Gold Cup. Un de Sceaux would never have been eligible to run in the Ryanair. Vautour would have been allowed the time he ran but had he stayed alive in 2017 he would have had no choice but to run in the QMCC or the Gold Cup. No winning 4 or 5 Ryanairs.

kiers47

WickIow Brave wrote: »

Then I'd just make the Coral Cup or the Pertemps for conditionals. Probably the Pertemps.

Ya that would be fair i guess.

Id probably scrap the pertemps before the MP tbh. The pertemps is pretty much set up for an absolute plot job.
Granted it has been around a lot longer than the MP.

WickIow Brave

If the Ryanair is kept as is then we will have to accept that eventually it will be on an equal footing with the Champion Chase and the Gold Cup. It won't be seen as a lesser race. Horses like Vautour will be running in it year after year and we saw how Douvan nearly ran in it this year. The top trainers won't have any problem running their best horses in the race.

WickIow Brave

kiers47 wrote: »

Ya that would be fair i guess.

Id probably scrap the pertemps before the MP tbh. The pertemps is pretty much set up for an absolute plot job.
Granted it has been around a lot longer than the MP.

Actually that is spot on. I love the Martin Pipe as a betting heat where it's progressive horses just below the top level taking each other on whereas like you say the Pertemps is just plot jobs galore and you get yokes like Glenloe ridiculously short cos the world and its mother know its been plotted up for it.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

kksaints

I'd keep the Fred Winter purely because it generally makes the Triumph a classier race due to the fact that a lot of trainers with mediocre 4yos can enter and run in the Fred Winter rather than clogging up the Triumph and creating a big field cavalry charge as it too often was before 2005 .Personally think the Martin Pipe, Mares Novice Hurdle and the 2m4f novice handicap chase add very little to the festival.

handsfree2

slimshady007 wrote: »

Why do you think the Champion hurdle was so weak? I thought it was a cracking finish with Buveir Dair pulling out all the stops to defeat last year's supreme 2nd

You can get a fairly good handle on the race from the ratings.

Identity thief is rated 149 and was about 12 lengths of the winner which would give the impression that the winner only had to run to a mark of 161 to win.

Mick Jazz is rated 156 and was about 3 lengths of the winner which would give the impression that the winner only had to run to a mark of 160 to win.

Melon was rated 159 after his Bula run and ran to a similar standard in this around 160.

So the winner seems to have only had to run to 161 ish to win.

That compares unfavorably to most of the recent champion hurdles including last year.

mdwexford

aidankkk wrote: »

You probably right in that they added a couple of poorish races and could have made better decisions, like a 2m5f hurdle and maybe a veterans chase rather than the fred winter / mares novice. martin pipe etc.

Don't agree about the JLT or Ryanair, there is far too much between a 2 mile championship race and a 3m race and the intermediate distance is needed. I can think of only 1 time the ryanair had any effect on the gold cup and that was Vautour. I think the JLT makes more sense for novices than the RSA, and as the Gold Cup is a non standard 2 furlongs over the norm of 3 miles , that race is certainly needed as the number of gold cup horses can be counted on 1 hand any year.

Oh they definitely give horses more options and make sense to be there.

It does dilute the more established races though.

danganabu wrote: »

Yes it was suggested to have no handicaps as ludicrous and all as it would be, see above.

Of course it is up for debate and I for one don't agree.

But how can you not agree.

The more options there are the more it takes away from each race.
All the horses than ran in the AB, JLT and Ryanair since their inception would either have stayed at home or ran in the older races making them stronger.

Billgirlylegs

I can remember the addition of The Coral Cup and The Bumper.
I can also remember The Cathcart, and it was a nothing race.
I watched Beau Ranger, and Dublin Flyer running themselves into sweaty balls of nothing, running in the Gold Cup. Florida Pearl and One Man did similar,and they were legless after the second last.

I can absolutely guarantee that it is a good thing that The Ryanair was introduced. Al four would have featured at the finish, as opposed to falling in a heap in the longer race.

Mysterypunter

supremenovice wrote: »

I can't wait to see your reaction WHEN they move to a 5 day festival with the Gold Cup on the Saturday "so the working man can watch the Gold Cup".

The working man watches the Gold Cup in work