Recommend alarm upgrade?

AidenL

I have a Napco alarm which is now 17 years old.

I asked the installer last year, would it need an upgrade and he said no.

However, reading around, I see things have moved on.

Biggest problem for me is, the house wasn’t prewired for sensors at door and windows, so he only installed pirs in all rooms, plus there’s a wired sensor at the front and back door, and a wireless sensor on a pair of French doors. We tend to not out the alarm on when we are inside evenings and nights as a result, which defeats the purpose.

So I’m thinking I need a major upgrade, and hope that I can get some pointers here.

The house is a bungalow, with front and back door, and French doors.

There are 14 windows, mostly with double openings at ground level, and two velux upstairs. Can I use wireless sensors on all these or is wiring better? I have an electrician who works for reasonable money, could he install the cabling and pull back to where the panel is?

The current alarm has activation fobs, with press buttons, which are unreliable, so could I get touch fobs similar to commercial buildings?

I’d like a system with duress codes, and panic buttons ideally.

We have a Control 4 home automation system, think it uses Zigbee, so the alarm and the C4 could communicate for arming when house shuts off at night, so ideally I’d like that, but not a deal breaker.

App control, wi fi arming and disarming if away from home - is that possible?

Our monitoring price goes up and up, around 30 per month now for gsm - is that normal? I said I’d cancel it, and the installer said he would be removing the card, which I thought I had paid for.

Long wish list, any idea what I’d need to budget for this upgrade?

Thanks in advance for your comments on this.

KoolKid

AidenL wrote: »

There are 14 windows, mostly with double openings at ground level, and two velux upstairs. Can I use wireless sensors on all these or is wiring better? I have an electrician who works for reasonable money, could he install the cabling and pull back to where the panel is?

He can only do this work for you is he is PSA licenced company.
You could use the existing wiring in any new system you go for .
The 2 most popular systems we would use here would be GSD or Siemens Vanderbilt.. The downside with Vanderbilt would be they don't have wireless shock sensors at the moment.

AidenL wrote: »

The current alarm has activation fobs, with press buttons, which are unreliable, so could I get touch fobs similar to commercial buildings?

I’d like a system with duress codes, and panic buttons ideally.

Yes. These are all standard features on all systems. You can also have duress passwords for the monitoring station to recognize in the event of a situation.
Siemens Vanderbilt also have a nice high security feature called All OK Zone . This is a zone that must activate after a disarm to prevent a duress alarm being sent.

AidenL wrote: »

We have a Control 4 home automation system, think it uses Zigbee, so the alarm and the C4 could communicate for arming when house shuts off at night, so ideally I’d like that, but not a deal breaker.

Siemens Vanderbilt can do this with Control 4
https://www.spcsupportinfo.com/SPCConnectPro/spc-overview/spc-integrations/home-automation-intergration/control4/
GSD are also looking at Alexa intergrations if there is a control 4 skill there.

AidenL wrote: »

App control, wi fi arming and disarming if away from home - is that possible?

That is possible on both these system with free & chargeable options.

AidenL wrote: »

Our monitoring price goes up and up, around 30 per month now for gsm - is that normal? I said I’d cancel it, and the installer said he would be removing the card, which I thought I had paid for.

There is probably a managed SIM card or possibly a GSD unit that would be free from the monitoring stations that can be removed. But why he'd bother I don't know. Price-wise shop around and see whats included. Some monitoring packages may only include monitoring. Some may include an annual service . Some may include 2 call outs & some may cover unlimited call outs.
A managed international SIM card may /or may not also be included.
Test polling may be 24 hours,5 hours, 3 hours, 1 hour or 15 minutes.
Generally if there is a big price difference there will be a difference in the service provided.

Hope this helps. If you have any more questions come back to us.

AidenL

KoolKid wrote: »

He can only do this work for you is he is PSA licenced company.
You could use the existing wiring in any new system you go for .
The 2 most popular systems we would use here would be GSD or Siemens Vanderbilt.. The downside with Vanderbilt would be they don't have wireless shock sensors at the moment.

Yes. These are all standard features on all systems. You can also have duress passwords for the monitoring station to recognize in the event of a situation.
Siemens Vanderbilt also have a nice high security feature called All OK Zone . This is a zone that must activate after a disarm to prevent a duress alarm being sent.

Siemens Vanderbilt can do this with Control 4
https://www.spcsupportinfo.com/SPCConnectPro/spc-overview/spc-integrations/home-automation-intergration/control4/
GSD are also looking at Alexa intergrations if there is a control 4 skill there.

That is possible on both these system with free & chargeable options.


There is probably a managed SIM card or possibly a GSD unit that would be free from the monitoring stations that can be removed. But why he'd bother I don't know. Price-wise shop around and see whats included. Some monitoring packages may only include monitoring. Some may include an annual service . Some may include 2 call outs & some may cover unlimited call outs.
A managed international SIM card may /or may not also be included.
Test polling may be 24 hours,5 hours, 3 hours, 1 hour or 15 minutes.
Generally if there is a big price difference there will be a difference in the service provided.

Hope this helps. If you have any more questions come back to us.

Thanks for the very comprehensive reply, that’s great information.

I’m in Donegal, I probably have a far more limited range of installers over here though?

2011

AidenL wrote: »

We have a Control 4 home automation system, think it uses Zigbee, so the alarm and the C4 could communicate for arming when house shuts off at night, so ideally I’d like that, but not a deal breaker.

For home automation I think you would be better off posting here.
There is a very interesting discussion about a powerful alarm by Cytech that will meet all of your home automation needs on this thread. This system is compatible with Zigbee as well as a number of other protocols.

Long wish list, any idea what I’d need to budget for this upgrade?

How long is a piece of string?

Being PSA registered is not a requirement if you are installing an alarm in your own home. Also anyone (including your electrician) is permitted to install the cabling.

I have a HKC alarm myself, I am very happy with it. It has both wired and wireless sensors, app control which can also switch my heating on and off.

I use a a lot of Siemens equipment in work (PLCs, variable speed drives for motor etc...) and rate it highly so I would be confident that their alarm system is very good, however it has never been as popular in Ireland as the HKC. This doesn't mean that it is inferior, just that you have far less installers to choose from.

Personally I have never been a fan of the GSD systems, nor have I seen many around.

AidenL

2011 wrote: »

For home automation I think you would be better off posting here.
There is a very interesting discussion about a powerful alarm by Cytech that will meet all of your home automation needs on this thread. This system is compatible with Zigbee as well as a number of other protocols.



How long is a piece of string?

Being PSA registered is not a requirement if you are installing an alarm in your own home. Also anyone (including your electrician) is permitted to install the cabling.

I have a HKC alarm myself, I am very happy with it. It has both wired and wireless sensors, app control which can also switch my heating on and off.

I use a a lot of Siemens equipment in work (PLCs, variable speed drives for motor etc...) and rate it highly so I would be confident that their alarm system is very good, however it has never been as popular in Ireland as the HKC. This doesn't mean that it is inferior, just that you have far less installers to choose from.

Personally I have never been a fan of the GSD systems, nor have I seen many around.

Thank you.

Yeah I’ve been googling like crazy, HKC seem to be everywhere.

I guess local backup is important for support. My old Napco is not as steady as it was now.

Any experience of Texacom? Seems it’s imported by ADI in Ennis, same people who are the Control 4 distributors here.

2011

AidenL wrote: »

Yeah I’ve been googling like crazy, HKC seem to be everywhere.

Exactly, all installers can look after you if you use HKC. This can make pricing more competitive too.

If I wanted to go with something different than HKC I may as well go the full hog and go with something radical like the Cytech system mentioned above. Admittedly very few installers to select from with Cytech systems but on the flip side you get real home automation features. Although Siemens and HKC work well they basically offer the same thing.

AidenL

So shopping around today, seems its overwhelmingly HKC.

Having rechecked,I have 17 windows, with 23 openings - so is it recommended that id need a shock / contact sensor on them all? Plus a front and back door and a pair of French doors. The costs mount up at that.

I'm being quoted 75 euros per sensor. Is that the going rate?

KoolKid

Per device its about right but the initial systems come as kits.
Are all those windows ground floor or accessible?

AidenL

KoolKid wrote: »

Per device its about right but the initial systems come as kits.
Are all those windows ground floor or accessible?

Yeah, all but two velux are on the ground floor, it’s a bungalow.

KoolKid

Have you had companies out to survey everything. That's going to run quite expensive, I'd be making sure to get it right. It's also a requirement for the standards. I presume you are not looking at a self install.

2011

AidenL wrote: »

aving rechecked,I have 17 windows, with 23 openings - so is it recommended that id need a shock / contact sensor on them all?

That depends on a number of factors such as how accessible they are. As installers tend to charge per point surveys tend to recommend more points To be fair it generally makes sense.

Plus a front and back door and a pair of French doors. The costs mount up at that.

I'm being quoted 75 euros per sensor. Is that the going rate?

I would expect that sort of price for a house with 1/2 the number of windows. For a job that size a far better price per sensor should be achievable. Remember all quotations are based on time and materials so once an installer is on site and set up economy of scale comes into play.

Monitoring contracts and servicing contracts can be very lucrative for installers, so if these options appeal to you use them to negotiate a lower install price.

On another note HKC do really cool wireless motion detectors with built in cameras. Unless you have a Nest (or similar) you can get the alarm to control your boiler remotely from the alarm app.

fred funk }{

You need to protect all accessible windows and doors with shock sensors and contacts. Normally an installer will price for the job and then list what an extra sensor will cost as an addition to the already specified job.

With HKC you can wire traditional shock sensors into a wireless sensor, if it's near, to save some cash.

The likes of double French doors only need one device as one door has to open before the other.

HKC is a quality piece of kit and you won't be disappointed. Also, as has already been pointed out, most installers install it so you'll always have a good choice of companies to chose from for servicing.

2011

fred funk }{ wrote: »

With HKC you can wire traditional shock sensors into a wireless sensor, if it's near, to save some cash.

Good point. It just shows that selecting the right installer can save you money without needing to compromise on security.

KoolKid

This is where insisting on a site survey comes into play.Most good installers would look into this option where windows are in close proximity.
Most wireless systems have features to add in hardwired devices. The downside to adding multiple devices is it shortens battery life on that device.

AidenL

Thanks all, yep, I’ll get a survey done, with two or three reputable companies.

Seems HKC will be the most likely solution.

kub

KoolKid wrote:

This is where insisting on a site survey comes into play.Most good installers would look into this option where windows are in close proximity. Most wireless systems have features to add in hardwired devices. The downside to adding multiple devices is it shortens battery life on that device.

Sorry, but in my experience you are wrong.
I have HKC wireless sensors out there with wired inertia sensors and contacts connected into them and I have can factually say that it does not decrease battery performance at all.
That is what you get with a quality product I suppose.

2011

As wired inertia sensors are passive and not active components I can’t see how the would consume any more than a negligible amount of power.

KoolKid

Inertias are constantly picking up various levels of vibration. The levels are set in the wireless device which has to analyse and decide what data to transmit to the panel. Likewise with multiple openings.
No one is talking about inferior products it purely down to usage.
If one door opens twice a day and another opens 50 times battery life will be affected.

2011

I would argue that connecting wired sensors into a wireless sensor will marginally increase battery life. Why? Because to connect in the wired sensors it is necessary to remove a link between two terminals within the wireless sensor. As this link is very short it has a very low resistance. Once I connect alarm cable and sensors to these terminals I have connected a slightly higher resistance across the same two terminals. As the voltage on these terminals is fixed Ohm’s law dictates that a higher resistance for a given circuit will result in a smaller current flowing. As we all know battery life is a function of the current drawn, in simple terms less current drawn results in longer battery life.

KoolKid

An interesting theory. I'm basing my comments based on information from manufacturers so I'm sure they know more than me. I'd also be confident they take all that into consideration in their testing and comments.

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

An interesting theory.

With respect Ohm's law is considered a fact, not a theory.

I'm basing my comments based on information from manufacturers so I'm sure they know more than me.

What manufacturer and what exactly did they say?

KoolKid

All manufacturers have stated this to me at different stages. I trust their expertise on their own equipment they design and manufacture.

hatchman

So introducing more resistance you will use less power? Interesting theory

2011

hatchman wrote: »

So introducing more resistance you will use less power? Interesting theory

Yes.
This is very basic stuff, you don’t have to take my word for it click on the link in my last post.
Higher resistance at a fixed voltage means lower current.

Or mathematically : I = V/R

The formula for DC power is:
Power = (I^2)R

or

Power = I x R

So as you increase the resistance to a circuit fed at a fixed voltage the current decreases. That is why a large current flows through a dead short (very low resistance). Power is a function of current.

So an 8.5 kW heating element in a shower unit will have a lower resistance than the 3 kW immersion element. This is why the shower is fed from a larger cable with a higher rated MCB protecting it.

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

All manufacturers have stated this to me at different stages. I trust their expertise on their own equipment they design and manufacture.

I don’t want to derail the thread any further but clearly the laws of physics disagree as does the experience of other installers on this forum and a phone call to a manufacturer also had no concerns about impact on battery life.
I will leave it at that.

DM1983

Just to offer an alternative, I got a GSD alarm system installed a few months ago and couldn't be happier with it. Self monitored on the app and no monthly charge. I don't know why everyone uses HKC. It does nothing the the GSD system doesn't. I imagine its to do with building ongoing revenue stream for the monitoring.

2011

Dmangan wrote: »

Just to offer an alternative, I got a GSD alarm system installed a few months ago and couldn't be happier with it.

Makes sense to me.
I can see why people are delighted with Siemens / HKC / GSD alarm systems. They are all substantialy better that the alarms of the past and all offer something very similar. Different people just have slightly different preferences. The only real difference is down to how well the systems is installed as this really determines the vulnerabilities and reliability of the system.

Once properly installed any of the above should provide a robust secure solution that requires very little maintenance with the convenience of app control.

Self monitored on the app and no monthly charge.

Self monitoring, makes perfect sense to me too for the vast majority of domestic installations. Of course the bulk of your saving is due to not having to pay a central monitoring station or a maintenance fee. Any app fees are minor compared to these costs.

kub

Dmangan wrote: »

Just to offer an alternative, I got a GSD alarm system installed a few months ago and couldn't be happier with it. Self monitored on the app and no monthly charge. I don't know why everyone uses HKC. It does nothing the the GSD system doesn't. I imagine its to do with building ongoing revenue stream for the monitoring.

HKC gives me, a professional installer, peace of mind that I am fitting a system that is the benchmark of all the manufacturers in this country and further afield for that matter.
It does not give me any trouble, it gives as i have experienced since the introduction of their wireless systems, unrivaled detector battery life. Might I point out, I have systems out there now with 5 + years service and have yet to change the detector batteries.
Including also those ones that have shock sensors and contacts wired into them.
Might I add, they are the only manufacturer that allow for the connection and operation of wired inertia shock sensors to their wireless ones.

Having seen GSD's equipment, and discussed same, it just did not come up to the standard I am used to with HKC.
I have been in this industry before there was a HKC, a GSD, Vanderbilt and quite a few others and I have used and worked on every manufacturers products, HKC stand out above all the rest for me, most especially in the domestic market.

AidenL

Ok, I never went ahead with this, but its still on my to do list.

Anything changed dramatically over the last 10 months, or is it still HKC, Siemens Vanderbilt and maybe GSD?

Anyone on the boards here cover south Donegal, Ballyshannon / Bundoran area?

KoolKid

Still pretty much the same.
HKC now owned by Asaa Abloy . Otherwise all the same.

AidenL

Im revisiting this again.

I had two local companies out to survey my house.

Both are adamant that theres no point in having perimeter security, that PIRs are more than adequate. I maintained that its b best to keep intruders outside but they reckon if someone comes in, they come in.

I have triple glazed windows, and they both said that are hard to get through and that Id waste money and have false alarms from perimeter shock sensors.

Any idea what they might be so reluctant to install a perimeter upgrade?

KoolKid

Any installer who wants to install what they want without considering your wants and needs are best avoided in my professional opinion.
How in the name of anything logical is an alarm that goes off after you are broken into better than an alarm that activates before an intruder gains access.
Shock sensors are not the cause of false alarms. False alarms are caused by faulty devices, bad wiring or bad installation.
Shop around would be my advice.

kub

AidenL wrote: »

Im revisiting this again.

I had two local companies out to survey my house.

Both are adamant that theres no point in having perimeter security, that PIRs are more than adequate. I maintained that its b best to keep intruders outside but they reckon if someone comes in, they come in.

I have triple glazed windows, and they both said that are hard to get through and that Id waste money and have false alarms from perimeter shock sensors.

Any idea what they might be so reluctant to install a perimeter upgrade?

It sounds to me like they are inexperienced, by any chance do they do TV or electrical services as well?
Any experienced installer would recommend a perimeter type system, any installers that i know of, who do not, have little or no experience with inertia shock sensors and cannot actually fault find them, so avoid them whenever possible.

AidenL

That’s what I thought.

Odd how they just want to go PIRs only, as I have them installed already.

Both very long established, well known, far from inexperienced companies in the North West actually.

bk

It sounds like the system they install doesn't support shock sensors, so they are trying to push you away from that option.

If the system they installed supported shock sensors, e.g. HKC, then they might still recommend that you don't need them, but sure, if you want them, they can add them for a bit more.

If you aren't happy, get quotes from another company, perhaps ask upfront if they do hkc systems.

AidenL wrote: »

I have triple glazed windows, and they both said that are hard to get through and that Id waste money and have false alarms from perimeter shock sensors.

In fairness, I do think there is actually a lot of truth in that. The triple glazed bit. I think triple glazing reduces greatly the benefit of shock sensors.

I've double glazing myself, but it also has a layer of security film, which seemingly makes them very difficult to smash through. I had hkc shock sensors on them, but doing walking tests and even adjusting the sensitivity, I could never get the shock sensor to work properly. I could hammer the window with a rubber mallet and they still wouldn't trigger!

I think with modern high quality windows and glazing and the increasing size of windows (lots of floor to celing, etc.). Shock sensors are becoming less useful.

It is a pity that the typical Irish security systems don't support external PIR's, glass break sensors and curtain PIR's like are so common in the US. They seem to me to be more inline with modern Irish homes then shock sensors. That isn't to say that shock sensors don't have a place, they do, just that they aren't the be all and end all that some make them out to be.

Donnacha_

If its a bungalow and there is access to attic spaces then it is possible to run cables through the wall cavities, A wired system generaly cheaper. HKC would give you all the options you require.

AidenL

It was HKC one of them was installing actually.

bk wrote: »

It sounds like the system they install doesn't support shock sensors, so they are trying to push you away from that option.

If the system they installed supported shock sensors, e.g. HKC, then they might still recommend that you don't need them, but sure, if you want them, they can add them for a bit more.

If you aren't happy, get quotes from another company, perhaps ask upfront if they do hkc systems.



In fairness, I do think there is actually a lot of truth in that. The triple glazed bit. I think triple glazing reduces greatly the benefit of shock sensors.

I've double glazing myself, but it also has a layer of security film, which seemingly makes them very difficult to smash through. I had hkc shock sensors on them, but doing walking tests and even adjusting the sensitivity, I could never get the shock sensor to work properly. I could hammer the window with a rubber mallet and they still wouldn't trigger!

I think with modern high quality windows and glazing and the increasing size of windows (lots of floor to celing, etc.). Shock sensors are becoming less useful.

It is a pity that the typical Irish security systems don't support external PIR's, glass break sensors and curtain PIR's like are so common in the US. They seem to me to be more inline with modern Irish homes then shock sensors. That isn't to say that shock sensors don't have a place, they do, just that they aren't the be all and end all that some make them out to be.

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

Any installer who wants to install what they want without considering your wants and needs are best avoided in my professional opinion.
How in the name of anything logical is an alarm that goes off after you are broken into better than an alarm that activates before an intruder gains access.
Shock sensors are not the cause of false alarms. False alarms are caused by faulty devices, bad wiring or bad installation.
Shop around would be my advice.

This

2011

AidenL wrote: »

It was HKC one of them was installing actually.

Not surprising they are one of the most popular systems in ireland if not the most popular. Some installers avoid inertia shock sensors as they take so much longer to install. They just want to get in, get out and get paid rapidly.

bk

AidenL wrote: »

It was HKC one of them was installing actually.

Weird, sounds like a poor installer so!

As I said, he maybe right that they won't be of much use with your type of windows. But if you really wanted them, he should have given you two quotes, one with and one without the sensors and left you to decide. More likely to get business that way.

AidenL

Im back again - anyone have any opinions on LightSYS Risco system?

Id like to use wireless shock sensors on my windows with it.

AidenL

So, I'm going with a Risco Lightsys 2 setup.

2 Keypads, 18 Shock and Contact sensors, 3 door shock and contact.

Couple of wired PIRs, 2 fobs, and monitoring.

Seems like a decent system, will be installed in the New Year.