The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

ligertigon

If the 8th is not repealed.
When will the next election for it take place?

Simi

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

My friend got the attached leaflet handed to her the other day. We all had some laugh at the last paragraph.

That's actually hilarious! I'm impressed they managed to make it all the way to 'point' 7 before descending into absolute insanity.

If you have a picture of the whole thing, I'd love to read the rest of their manifesto.

professore

What worries me is that once the 8th is repealed, the unborn child has no rights whatsoever under the constitution. That's a problem for me.

There could have been some reasonable replacement for the 8th instead of repeal.

It's like the choice between Hillary and Trump all over again.

Annasopra

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

:eek::eek: They're actually giving these out? Surely something that misleading is not allowed?

Allowed? Theres no real regulation to allow or not allow

preacher2

Well ok then, since there are some quick replies being thrown lets debate.

First of all I am Irish and I speak of the military as any educated person on that subject would.

So go ahead and give me a reason babies should be killed.

I already know a few of them that you use but lets try to convert me, I have an open mind and I will listen to ALL of your points (keep them simply paragraphed I need to reply). But if I am to listen to your points and consider them, you are to mine.

Goodluck

Annasopra

Simi wrote: »

That's actually hilarious! I'm impressed they managed to make it all the way to 'point' 7 before descending into absolute insanity.

If you have a picture of the whole thing, I'd love to read the rest of their manifesto.

They handed them outside a pro choice event

Zubeneschamali

professore wrote: »

What worries me is that once the 8th is repealed, the unborn child has no rights whatsoever under the constitution.

The unborn had no rights under the Constitution from 1937 to 1983, and abortion was illegal for that entire time.

It was the 8th which made abortion legal.

preacher2

Why do you call eachother ''pro choice''?

You have choice? You can go out and cut your own ears off if and feed them to birds, nobody cares. You can tattoo a snake over your face, nobody cares. You can get surgery to put fake horns under your skin NOBODY CARES.

You have full choice. But when it comes to a DIFFERENT body (not your body - basic biology) then no, you do not nor will you EVER have the right to decide what happens to it. No matter what happens with the 8th.

kylith

preacher2 wrote: »

Well ok then, since there are some quick replies being thrown lets debate.

First of all I am Irish and I speak of the military as any educated person on that subject would.

So go ahead and give me a reason babies should be killed.

I already know a few of them that you use but lets try to convert me, I have an open mind and I will listen to ALL of your points (keep them simply paragraphed I need to reply). But if I am to listen to your points and consider them, you are to mine.

Goodluck

Because as an Irish woman I can be denied medical care if I am pregnant until my life is at immediate risk.

Because as an Irish woman if I find out I am carrying a foetus that will not survive I am forced by law to carry to term, deliver, and watch it die.

Because as an Irish woman if I am having a miscarriage doctors can’t do anything to speed the process, even though the foetus is doomed anyway.

Ave Sodalis

preacher2 wrote: »

You have full choice. But when it comes to a DIFFERENT body (not your body - basic biology) then no, you do not nor will you EVER have the right to decide what happens to it. No matter what happens with the 8th.

What?

Ave Sodalis

preacher2 wrote: »

Well ok then, since there are some quick replies being thrown lets debate.

First of all I am Irish and I speak of the military as any educated person on that subject would.

So go ahead and give me a reason babies should be killed.

I already know a few of them that you use but lets try to convert me, I have an open mind and I will listen to ALL of your points (keep them simply paragraphed I need to reply). But if I am to listen to your points and consider them, you are to mine.

Goodluck

Given your next post, and the one before it, I highly doubt you'll keep an open mind and listen to any posts...

kylith

preacher2 wrote: »

You have full choice. But when it comes to a DIFFERENT body (not your body - basic biology) then no, you do not nor will you EVER have the right to decide what happens to it. No matter what happens with the 8th.

If it is in my body and dependant on my body to the point that it is leaching calcium from my bones it is not independent.

bertieinexile

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

It’s true what Bertie says about mental health grounds being the grounds for >90% of terminations in the U.K.

Thanks Prof

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

The stars are published by the U.K. government every year.

I was reminded of the mental health ground number when I read the Telegraph article posted earlier. Thanks DubInMeath for the SPUC article. Good one.

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

A lot of his other ideas are nonsense though. Yesterday it was unrestricted abortion up to birth or something.

Can you remind me of the post?

Simi

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

They handed them outside a pro choice event

I stand corrected. The first page is even more insane than the second. Just wow!

Zubeneschamali

preacher2 wrote: »

But when it comes to a DIFFERENT body (not your body - basic biology) then no, you do not nor will you EVER have the right to decide what happens to it. No matter what happens with the 8th.

We don't need to repeal the 8th for this. Irish people already have a constitutionally guaranteed right to information about abortion and the right to travel for abortions abroad.

preacher2

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Given your next post, and the one before it, I highly doubt you'll keep an open mind and listen to any posts...

If I say I am going to keep an open mind, which I am, and your only argument is ''I doubt you will'' it leaves you in no mans land a bit.

Make an argument please or just dont bother replying to me it doesnt really make sense I will respect anyone who brings forward an actually decent argument (which there are for pro abortion) but coming up with something as wasteful as what you said is just a joke. Lets not joke, we arent clowns in a circus.

Ave Sodalis

preacher2 wrote: »

If I say I am going to keep an open mind, which I am, and your only argument is ''I doubt you will'' it leaves you in no mans land a bit.

Make an argument please or just dont bother replying to me it doesnt really make sense I will respect anyone who brings forward an actually decent argument (which there are for pro abortion) but coming up with something as wasteful as what you said is just a joke. Lets not joke, we arent clowns in a circus.

Then do you mind explaining what on earth you mean by your other post I replied to?

preacher2

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Then do you mind explaining what on earth you mean by your other post I replied to?

What? I am not asking for you to build me a rocket ship here, I am not here trying to argue with you, which you are clearly trying to do with me and I promise it wont end well.

Just bring me a basic argument for abortion. 1 argument, I seen a women do it a few posts up but Im not sure if shes here for a debate.

Most of you people dont want to listen so I am asking for one of you to come to a debate here.

ligertigon

Abortion for rape / incest/ medical problems/complications... yes from me.

But not on demand.

Pro choice? you had a choice when the big mickey was going into the love tunnel did school not tell you about that part?

On another note, In Ireland, unborn wild birds in eggs have rights but humans don't ? lol

Ave Sodalis

preacher2 wrote: »

What? I am not asking for you to build me a rocket ship here, I am not here trying to argue with you, which you are clearly trying to do with me and I promise it wont end well.

Just bring me a basic argument for abortion. 1 argument, I seen a women do it a few posts up but Im not sure if shes here for a debate.

Most of you people dont want to listen so I am asking for one of you to come to a debate here.

I'm actually just asking you to explain what you meant by that other post because it didn't make any sense...

Where's the proof that most of us won't listen? The very fact that there's over 12,000 posts between the two pages shows that people are willing to...erm... come to a debate? Posting about how abortion is murder, people who do it are disgusting, that women will never have choice over their wombs even if the 8th is repealed (??), and that because you want to join the army it means you have some sort of right to dictate what should happen (this isn't the US, we don't freakishly worship the army to the point where their opinion gets more weight than others here)... that's not debate either, and none of that shows any indication that you'd be even in the slightest bit willing to listen.

Oldtree

preacher2 wrote: »

Well ok then, since there are some quick replies being thrown lets debate.

First of all I am Irish and I speak of the military as any educated person on that subject would.

So go ahead and give me a reason babies should be killed.

I already know a few of them that you use but lets try to convert me, I have an open mind and I will listen to ALL of your points (keep them simply paragraphed I need to reply). But if I am to listen to your points and consider them, you are to mine.

Goodluck

All ears are you. I think you need to be curtious to posters and have a read of this thread, and it predecessor, before wading in with a "convince me post" and then a blood and guts post.

markodaly

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Why do you think I am pro-life?

Oldtree

preacher2 wrote: »

I am going to keep an open mind

Bar humbug.....

captbarnacles

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Simi wrote: »

That's actually hilarious! I'm impressed they managed to make it all the way to 'point' 7 before descending into absolute insanity.

If you have a picture of the whole thing, I'd love to read the rest of their manifesto.

They handed them outside a pro choice event

Ok those are hilarious. So funny I think maybe satire? I was laughing by point 3.

Vote no to abortion so you aren't euthanised 50 years from now 😂

preacher2

Ok Ave I dont need to waste time with your little argument. Simple answer: Most people who support abortion are liberal/leftist (NOT ALL) but most. Now if you look anywhere you can see that leftist snowflakes storm out of the place when anyone argues with them. They will call you a Nazi when they actually possess the most fascist traits.

Now onto the REAL argument from ligertiton or however you spell it.. lol.

TBH I dont really get the last part, are you saying unborn birds have more rights than unborn babies if 8th is repealed? If so then what are your views?

Abortion for rape: I understand how traumatic rape is and whatever **** actually committed such disgusting acts will burn in hell, however I dont see how it is the childs fault? I get that the mother is now stuck with something she did not want from someone she now hates and possibly even doesnt know, however is killing the baby really the answer? Is it? Will it make it more traumatic? The answer is yes.

Incest: Bit of a weird one to be honest, child will have a range of problems but its still human and again, the child, like a rape case doesnt need anyones permission to live. It was created and no it isnt ideal in fact its terrible but is killing it really going to help? TBH you shouldnt be having sex with your family anyway however its still a life.

Medical problems: This is a bit broad, however when it comes down to this why cant you just go to UK? I still disagree with it but why cant you? Anyway, you need to be more specific because there is a massive array of medical problems that dont justify and abortion and a very small amount that do.

At the end of the day, pro-abortion campaigners honestly think government officials like our current Taoiseach is genuine about his feelings on abortion, however you need to remember that they are all being fed money by big US and UK companies who will be making millions off Irish abortions.

A child does NOT need anyone elses permission to live. The answer is no. Your convenience does not give you the right to kill a baby. I am sorry.

captbarnacles

Question 8 needs lizard people added.

Ave Sodalis

preacher2 wrote:

Ok Ave I dont need to waste time with your little argument. Simple answer: Most people who support abortion are liberal/leftist (NOT ALL) but most. Now if you look anywhere you can see that leftist snowflakes storm out of the place when anyone argues with them. They will call you a Nazi when they actually possess the most fascist traits.

The only people who storm out of these thread are anti-repeal supporters who cry that they're being bullied and losing their free speech when someone disagrees with them... I've been in and out of this thread since the start. Really not sure what your point is. Care to explain that, and the other post I askrd you to explain?

markodaly

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Are you basing this on any actual data? polls? Surveys?

Both the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachteas Committee effectlively recommended the pro-life people's worst nightmare, abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, and all the polling since still says a referendum will pass.

The polls show support for my position.

A total of 40pc said unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks was 'about right', while 8pc said it 'did not go far enough', a combined 48pc in favour.

However, 33pc said unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks 'went too far' and a further 19pc were undecided - a combined 52pc against or unsure.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/poll-shows-strong-support-in-favour-of-abortion-referendum-but-12-week-proposal-splits-public-36615455.html

Strong support to repeal the 8th but when it comes to the question of 12 weeks, the support falters considerably.

Also, we know that these polls have to be taken with a grain of salt, and we might see a silent 'save the 8th' voter come out to swing it.

38% of people voted against same sex marriage, which is not nearly as contentious as this issue. Those votes are pretty much in the bag for the save the 8th side. All they need is another 13%.

It will be close. The repeal side may shade it and when I say shade it there could be 2-3% in it. However, at this juncture, I can't see it happening.

Anyway, its my opinion. I know people take offence to opinions that don't tally to their own and see it as a mission to try and bully people into submission, but there you go.

Ave Sodalis

Oh wait, I just seen preachers other post on the home page about the military... I'm not expecting him to stay around for much longer...

markodaly

seamus wrote: »

Not a hope in hell. They're not interested in moral victories. Only actual victories.

Those actually campaigning to keep the eighth are not campaigning on the basis of ethics or morals. This is not about being "correct" for them. It's a matter of faith and belief. They believe abortion is wrong, and there is nothing which can sway them from that. As a result, the ends will always justify the means. They're not interested in being right, in having all the facts, in being honest, or moral, or fair.

Their only goal is to win.

The pro-choice side would not be campaigning for choice, if they did not have the data and the facts to back it up. If the data and the facts all said that yes, having access to abortion harms women and gives them less control over their bodies, then there would be no pro-choice campaign.

This is an odd post. It is one where you can demonise one side where they are based on faith and the other side based on facts, because I presume all the pro-choice people are medical professionals? LOL, get real. All people make emotional irrational choices.

This is the age old, moral argument where you want to be seen as the good guys, but also need an enemy who are the bad guys.

Both sides have valid beliefs and valid arguments. Its down to a question on what outcomes do you wish to see.