Bus Eireann Lose 6 Kildare Routes to Go-Ahead

Jamie2k9

https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2018/0316/947911-bus-eireann-kildare/

Bus Éireann has lost the right to operate six routes on the Kildare bus corridor after an open tender was won by the UK firm Go-Ahead.

National Transport Authority CEO Anne Graham said that around 70 Bus Éireann bus drivers would be affected, but said that as the market is growing, redundancies were not expected.

Ms Graham declined to reveal the amount of the Go-Ahead bid, however, she said the contract had been awarded on criteria of 65% of points for price, and 35% for quality.

Jamie2k9

Routes are 120, 120C, 123, 124, 126, 130

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Be interesting to see what go ahead charge. The service from naas (126) is dismal. Regularly late and nearly 11 quid return to city centre. The rush hour bus takes nearly an hour an a half to get in because it leaves way too late. And only two go to Stephens green with the rest going up the quays. Hopefully go ahead address these issues

Jamie2k9

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Be interesting to see what go ahead charge. The service from naas (126) is dismal. Regularly late and nearly 11 quid return to city centre. The rush hour bus takes nearly an hour an a half to get in because it leaves way too late. And only two go to Stephens green with the rest going up the quays. Hopefully go ahead address these issues

NTA say no price changes expected. The above link has now updated info and whinging from the NBRU!

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

NTA say no price changes expected. The above link has now updated info and whinging from the NBRU!

Strange when they said 65% of the bid was based on pricing. Suggests that bus eireann were going to jack up the price if they had got it then

gordongekko

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Strange when they said 65% of the bid was based on pricing. Suggests that bus eireann were going to jack up the price if they had got it then

Or they both scored equally on price but their service let them down

gmg678

will goahead  take tax saver tickets I wonder?
Will they cut smaller villages out, like Coill Dubh and Staffan?

LeinsterDub

gmg678 wrote: »

will goahead  take tax saver tickets I wonder?
Will they cut smaller villages out, like Coill Dubh and Staffan?

The ticketing and the routes are controlled by the NTA so I'd imagine not.

Kfagan10

Ticketing, leap cards etc will stay the same as a result of continued NTA regulation.

Also 23 new vehicles, all wheelchair accessible, are to be purchased for use over these routes.

cfuserkildare

I wonder how this will be affected by UKs withdrawal from EU?
Will Brexit cause these Bus Routes to disappear?

AlekSmart

gordongekko wrote: »

Or they both scored equally on price but their service let them down

It appears to be a rereun of the Bus Aha Cliath BMO process,with the incumbent scoring well on the cost element,only to lose out on the Quality proviso.

The strength of the Go-Ahead bid tends to be their proven track record in meeting Quality Targets set by Regulatory & Tendering Agencies abroad.

Under the current direct award contracts to the CIE companies,it is only very recently within the lifetime of the second tranche of DA tenders that externally verified compliance was introduced,whereas,Go-Ahead had decades of TfL and other bodies verifiable monitoring results.

With the NTA currently recruiting staff for their compliance monitoring sections,Commuting customers will need to get comfortable with making their views known to a completely different entity than the actual operator.

https://www.transportforireland.ie/nta-announces-preferred-bidder-for-bus-services-on-kildare-commuter-corridor/

AlekSmart

cfuserkildare wrote: »

I wonder how this will be affected by UKs withdrawal from EU?
Will Brexit cause these Bus Routes to disappear?

No relevance whatsoever,as Go-Ahead Dublin is registered in Ireland and to all intents and purposes is an IRISH operation.

The prospect of a Hard Border at Johnstown in thankfully...remote.....I hope....:D

AlmightyCushion

cfuserkildare wrote: »

I wonder how this will be affected by UKs withdrawal from EU?
Will Brexit cause these Bus Routes to disappear?

Why would it? Plenty of non EU companies operate here and go ahead operate in non EU countries. In the unlikely event they do pull the plug here, then the nta can just re-tender it.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

With the NTA currently recruiting staff for their compliance monitoring sections,Commuting customers will need to get comfortable with making their views known to a completely different entity than the actual operator.

Brilliant, it is not as if you ever got anywhere complaining to DB or BE IME.

n97 mini

I wonder will they get off to as poor a start as with the 139: no signage anywhere and no RTPI integration.

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

I wonder will they get off to as poor a start as with the 139: no signage anywhere and no RTPI integration.

Many appear willing to cut the NTA some slack on the 139 startup,but I am of the opposite opinion.

With the Tendering process now fully operational,the NTA now have to step out of the background and take possession of the Public facing role they have so assidiously sought.

It is not as if the 139 tendering process included some huge technical impediment or was beset with problems,in fact,the opposite is the case,with the process being virtually self managing.

IF the 139 startup is to be now taken as the standard for future NTA operations,then this nees to be challenged NOW,in advance of a Luas Cross City situation being allowed to become the norm.

The first priority is to make the Contract Provisions PUBLIC,with whatever financial details are deemeed commercially sensitive redacted.

For some odd reason,whilst ALL PSO contracts relevant to the CIE companies are in the Public Domain,the NTA have been markedly reticent in relation to the Dublin BMO contracts now signed and in place...Why the need to keep these out of the Public eye ?

The era of the paper Destination Slip should be long gone.

devnull

Alek - the Bus Eireann contract for Waterford routes isn't public either.

There have been three competitive tenders for existing routes and none of them are public, two won by Go-Ahead and one by Bus Eireann - that doesn't seem to suggest there is anything untoward going on since it seems pretty consistent.

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

gordongekko wrote: »

Or they both scored equally on price but their service let them down

It appears to be a rereun of the Bus Aha Cliath BMO process,with the incumbent scoring well on the cost element,only to lose out on the Quality proviso.

The strength of the Go-Ahead bid tends to be their proven track record in meeting Quality Targets set by Regulatory & Tendering Agencies abroad.

Under the current direct award contracts to the CIE companies,it is only very recently within the lifetime of the second tranche of DA tenders that externally verified compliance was introduced,whereas,Go-Ahead had decades of TfL and other bodies verifiable monitoring results.

With the NTA currently recruiting staff for their compliance monitoring sections,Commuting customers will need to get comfortable with making their views known to a completely different entity than the actual operator.

https://www.transportforireland.ie/nta-announces-preferred-bidder-for-bus-services-on-kildare-commuter-corridor/

In the NTA plan for the next few years there was an interesting aim in relation to beefing up the monitoring and compliance and making it more robust and challenging for operators to meet, or something to that effect.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

Alek - the Bus Eireann contract for Waterford routes isn't public either.

There have been three competitive tenders for existing routes and none of them are public, two won by Go-Ahead and one by Bus Eireann - that doesn't seem to suggest there is anything untoward going on since it seems pretty consistent.

It is this consistently that is somewhat concerning.

ALL of the contracts are Public Record documents once the appropriate statutory requirements are met and the documents signed.

Why are the BMO contract provisions not public,in the exact same manner as the current PSO Contracts are ?

BTW,in case you feel a Public vs Private moment coming on,I include the M&A Coaches contracts and whatever other Private operators contracts there are out there.

The Bus Atha Cliath 10% announcement was on the 10th August 2017 and I fail to see why,in March 2018 we still have not sight of the contract.

It certainly does'nt meet the standards in place elsewhere in the Bus Market Tendering world...

https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/page.aspx?c=2&id=a0d4d08f-32f9-4a7a-804b-a0e97e9c19e6

The Annex's contain the pertinent information which,bizzarely,appear to be subject to Top Secrecy rules in our form of democracy ?

devnull

Deedsie wrote: »

Any chance they could ever lose the X12 bus route as they ain't running it well. NTA have zero interest in holding them to account either

It's a commercial. Self funded route so outside the scope of tendering.

bk

I wonder what will happen with the use of Bus Aras for these routes.

I realise most operate from Connolly, so they avoid that issue, but a few do, I suppose they'll move them out of Bus Aras.

It seems like Go Ahead are very serious about entering the market here, looks like they will be a major player across the Dublin region.

Stephen15

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Be interesting to see what go ahead charge. The service from naas (126) is dismal. Regularly late and nearly 11 quid return to city centre. The rush hour bus takes nearly an hour an a half to get in because it leaves way too late. And only two go to Stephens green with the rest going up the quays. Hopefully go ahead address these issues

That's a disgraceful fare considering it's only €3.70 from Sallins to Hueston on the train. Buses should always be less than trains not more.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

I wonder what will happen with the use of Bus Aras for these routes.

I realise most operate from Connolly, so they avoid that issue, but a few do, I suppose they'll move them out of Bus Aras.

It seems like Go Ahead are very serious about entering the market here, looks like they will be a major player across the Dublin region.

It wouldn't surprise me if they went for the Luas contract too when Transdev's expires.

Stephen15

Stephen15 wrote: »

It wouldn't surprise me if they went for the Luas contract too when Transdev's expires.

I hope they do.

The fact there is a choice of operators to run the Luas is fantastic. The problems Transdev had could be their loss in the long run.

Jamie2k9

salonfire wrote: »

I hope they do.

The fact there is a choice of operators to run the Luas is fantastic. The problems Transdev had could be their loss in the long run.

Why, they wouldn't have handled the current problems any differently.

end of the road

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Be interesting to see what go ahead charge. The service from naas (126) is dismal. Regularly late and nearly 11 quid return to city centre. The rush hour bus takes nearly an hour an a half to get in because it leaves way too late. And only two go to Stephens green with the rest going up the quays. Hopefully go ahead address these issues

GA likely wouldn't be able to address those issues given they seem to be both a timetable and specified route issue? fares are set by the NTA also so GA wouldn't have any control on that score either.
effectively they will just run what the NTA specify in the manner they specify.

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Strange when they said 65% of the bid was based on pricing. Suggests that bus eireann were going to jack up the price if they had got it then

NTA control fares so bus eireann couldn't simply jack them up.

salonfire wrote: »

I hope they do.

The fact there is a choice of operators to run the Luas is fantastic. The problems Transdev had could be their loss in the long run.

actually i am not sure there really is a choice of operators. can anyone remember how many operators bid for the previous luas contracts?
the possible choice of operators wouldn't really be relevant anyway as the tenderer specifies what runs and how it runs, within the criteria set out by the tenderer. whoever meets that gets the contract.
the problems with the luas currently aren't much, if anything to do with transdev by the sounds of things but the implementation of luas cross-city as a whole. there are other entities who had a part to play and they failed in their part to address the traffic issues. transdev can only now work with what they have.

IE 222

Its a serious amount of Drivers GA are going to need to get.

What happens if G/A can't provide the services due to a lack of drivers.

Ballymount and Redcow is already jammed during the day adding all these extra buses is going to lead to problems.

Stephen15

I take it GA will be using the same depot for their ex-DB routes and the ex-BE routes.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

Alek - the Bus Eireann contract for Waterford routes isn't public either.

There have been three competitive tenders for existing routes and none of them are public, two won by Go-Ahead and one by Bus Eireann - that doesn't seem to suggest there is anything untoward going on since it seems pretty consistent.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is this consistently that is somewhat concerning.

ALL of the contracts are Public Record documents once the appropriate statutory requirements are met and the documents signed.

Why are the BMO contract provisions not public,in the exact same manner as the current PSO Contracts are ?

BTW,in case you feel a Public vs Private moment coming on,I include the M&A Coaches contracts and whatever other Private operators contracts there are out there.

The Bus Atha Cliath 10% announcement was on the 10th August 2017 and I fail to see why,in March 2018 we still have not sight of the contract.

It certainly does'nt meet the standards in place elsewhere in the Bus Market Tendering world...

https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/page.aspx?c=2&id=a0d4d08f-32f9-4a7a-804b-a0e97e9c19e6

The Annex's contain the pertinent information which,bizzarely,appear to be subject to Top Secrecy rules in our form of democracy ?

The contracts with M&A, IE, DB and BE (except Waterford) are direct award net costs contracts and must be available to.view.

All other contracts (including BE Waterford) are competitive tender gross cost contracts and not availible for the public to view, they are considered commercially sensitive (whilst not a PSO service contract the LUAS contract is considered the same - commercially sensitive). The old BE Route 817 was a competitive tender gross cost contract and this too was not availible to the public.

This is in accordance with EU Regulation.

devnull

IE 222 wrote: »

Its a serious amount of Drivers GA are going to need to get.

What happens if G/A can't provide the services due to a lack of drivers.

Ballymount and Redcow is already jammed during the day adding all these extra buses is going to lead to problems.

I assume that they will use hire-ins if they need to, I doubt it will come to that, but it's an option and BE are doing a lot of hire ins recently on Dublin Commuter services.

IE 222

devnull wrote: »

I assume that they will use hire-ins if they need to, I doubt it will come to that, but it's an option and BE are doing a lot of hire ins recently on Dublin Commuter services.

Wouldn't be a good start. Are the hire -ins not a case of been short of buses as well rather than just drivers

GM228

IE 222 wrote: »

Wouldn't be a good start. Are the hire -ins not a case of been short of buses as well rather than just drivers

Can be both, but usually due to lack of driver.

GM228

With Waterford and now these, how much of the 10% of BE routes does this represent?

Losty Dublin

AlekSmart wrote: »

No relevance whatsoever,as Go-Ahead Dublin is registered in Ireland and to all intents and purposes is an IRISH operation.

The prospect of a Hard Border at Johnstown in thankfully...remote.....I hope....:D

As it is, there is a Hard Border sealing off Johnstown and long may it last

fritzelly

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2018/0316/947911-bus-eireann-kildare/

Dunno whether to laugh or cry or cry from the laughter at what BE and the unions are saying in that report

Does anyone know how controlled GA are by the unions? They have held the country to ransom enough at this stage.

This is hilarous...

NBRU General Secretary Dermot O'Leary has warned of "major industrial unrest" if any other routes are privatised.

and then this

"forced to move from Bus Éireann to an inferior employer".

They are seriously living in cloud cuckoo land

bebeman

GM228 wrote: »

All other contracts (including BE Waterford) are competitive tender gross cost contracts and not availible for the public to view, they are considered commercially sensitive (whilst not a PSO service contract the LUAS contract is considered the same - commercially sensitive). The old BE Route 817 was a competitive tender gross cost contract and this too was not availible to the public.

This is in accordance with EU Regulation.

We call that shenanigans!

GM228

fritzelly wrote: »

Does anyone know how controlled GA are by the unions? They have held the country to ransom enough at this stage.

GA have had huge IR issues in the UK especially in their rail businesses with ASLEF.

There is no indication as to weather or not they will deal with unions here.

fritzelly

GM228 wrote: »

GA have had huge IR issues in the UK especially in their rail businesses with ASLEF.

There is no indication as to weather or not they will deal with unions here.

My comment didn't indicate I meant BE have held...

Rail issues in the UK have been going on for years now.

end of the road

fritzelly wrote: »

Dunno whether to laugh or cry or cry from the laughter at what BE and the unions are saying in that report

Does anyone know how controlled GA are by the unions? They have held the country to ransom enough at this stage.

This is hilarous...


and then this


They are seriously living in cloud cuckoo land

i would be surprised if the union or unions weren't to be in go ahead. the unions don't hold the country to ransom but will rightly look after the terms and conditions of their members. the unions being in the private operators will be a good thing as it will prevent another london situation in terms of wages and drivers.

fritzelly

end of the road wrote: »

the unions don't hold the country to ransom but will rightly look after the terms and conditions of their members

It's not 1900, we have labour courts and laws to protect workers now so yes unions do hold the country to ransom, it's not individuals with a gripe
The country has been for too long held to ransom by the rampant unionisation.
All well and good to protect the rights of workers but not to bring a country to a standstill because the unions think a sub sect of workers deserve a pay rise even though the company is hemorrhaging money and barely staying afloat

end of the road

fritzelly wrote: »

It's not 1900, we have labour courts and laws to protect workers now so yes unions do hold the country to ransom, it's not individuals with a gripe
The country has been for too long held to ransom by the rampant unionisation.
All well and good to protect the rights of workers but not to bring a country to a standstill because the unions think a sub sect of workers deserve a pay rise even though the company is hemorrhaging money and barely staying afloat

labour courts and laws aren't enough, enforcers and advisers are needed, aka unions are needed and exist. the unions don't hold the country to ransom and unionisation is good for workers. the country hasn't been brought to a stand still by unions for decades, in fact the snow is more likely to bring the country to a stand still then a strike.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

i would be surprised if the union or unions weren't to be in go ahead. the unions don't hold the country to ransom but will rightly look after the terms and conditions of their members. the unions being in the private operators will be a good thing as it will prevent another london situation in terms of wages and drivers.

So what right have they to be threatening another strike just because it was awarded to another company?

Who's to say the drivers in Go Ahead won't have the same or better conditions.

devnull

I would say that on the quality aspect of the bid, the constant service cancellations every day on tendered operations as listed on the Bus Eireann website really hit them.

fritzelly

salonfire wrote: »

So what right have they to be threatening another strike just because it was awarded to another company?

Who's to say the drivers in Go Ahead won't have the same or better conditions.

Exactly

bebeman

fritzelly wrote: »

even though the company is hemorrhaging money and barely staying afloat

DB and BE could turn huge profits within a month if that is what the Government want.
Profit is not what they want, they want buses in and out of every little village and housing estate, running a service when only a hand full will be on board.
Don't forget over 1 million, close to a quarter of the population has unlimited free travel for €70 million a year.
Less than €70 a year per person for unlimited travel on DB/BE/IE/LUAS, for some perspective a DB 30 day Travelwide Monthly is €134.

If these FTP holders paid only once a week the minimum fare of €1.50 each way to go collect their pension/dole that alone is €156 per year. How many other paid journeys would these people make in a year?
Now imagine how much money DB/BE/IE/LUAS would make if the FTP was scrapped?
IDB/BE/IE/LUAS could drastically cut the cost of fares if there was no FTP and still turn a handsome profit.

So quit the BS about CIE loosing money, the Government want it this way

bebeman

fritzelly wrote: »

It's not 1900, we have labour courts and laws to protect workers now so yes unions do hold the country to ransom, it's not individuals with a gripe
The country has been for too long held to ransom by the rampant unionisation.
All well and good to protect the rights of workers but not to bring a country to a standstill because the unions think a sub sect of workers deserve a pay rise even though the company is hemorrhaging money and barely staying afloat

Hold your horses, we have posters here working overtime and not getting paid, how can this be so if we have Labour courts and laws to protect workers?

Jamie2k9

There will be a BE/DB strike within 12 months, the NTA plan to allow other routes go to tender where they feel its needed.

They will of course have the consultation with unions lather this year about it but I think most know it will be happening hence the threats by the NBRU today.

IMO a minimum of 30% should be out to tender or unions make a deal with the NTA that any industrial action guarantees a minimum service on core routes considering the monopoly they have. Union actions over the last few years played a major role in the current set up and in most cases a strike was never really justified when you look and pre/post proposals on offer in relation to pay etc.

It's lose lose situation for them now.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

IMO a minimum of 30% should be out to tender or unions make a deal with the NTA that any industrial action guarantees a minimum service on core routes considering the monopoly they have.

i'd say there would likely be little to nothing to gain for the unions making such a deal. realistically they could achieve a good strike by doing pay negotiations across all companies at the same time anyway negating tendering as a strike breaking measure. i'd be surprised if we had more then 3 operators within the dublin area on tendered routes but i guess time will tell.
anyway it's much easier for us all to have no service then wondering what is running and what isn't. at least with a strike we know there isn't going to be a service so we can plan around it.

the_syco

fritzelly wrote: »

This is hilarous...

NBRU General Secretary Dermot O'Leary has warned of "major industrial unrest" if any other routes are privatised.

Jaysus H christ! Do they want the general public to call for a lot more than 10% of the routes to go private?

end of the road wrote: »

i would be surprised if the union or unions weren't to be in go ahead

The company will just have it in their contract that they won't negotiate with unions.

fritzelly wrote: »

the company is hemorrhaging money and barely staying afloat

TBH, if they cut a few routes that don't collect many passengers, they'd be doing well. When I went to IT Carlow, there'd be a good few times when there'd be only me and maybe 2 others from Dublin going to Carlow, even after snaking through all the little towns along the way.

A public transport service will never really make money if it has to do unprofitable routes.

end of the road

the_syco wrote: »

Jaysus H christ! Do they want the general public to call for a lot more than 10% of the routes to go private?

i'd imagine they won't particularly care what the public call for given that having the routes go private won't make a difference in terms of strikes, staff seeking pay rises and fare rises, because the NTA control fares, and it's likely that there will only be a couple of operators, for which the unions will likely decide to do (for example) pay negotiations at the same time across those operators.

the_syco wrote: »

The company will just have it in their contract that they won't negotiate with unions.

they could do that, but as the union will eventually get in, and given they have unions in their other operations, they may as well negotiate with them from the start.

the_syco wrote: »

TBH, if they cut a few routes that don't collect many passengers, they'd be doing well. When I went to IT Carlow, there'd be a good few times when there'd be only me and maybe 2 others from Dublin going to Carlow, even after snaking through all the little towns along the way.

on the face of it it's a bit of a problem, but those routes do ultimately provide a social need, assuming they are PSO services. if they are PSO routes, BE cannot cut them, as the NTA control them and the company is paid to operate them. if they are commercial routes, then chances are they will go.

the_syco wrote: »

A public transport service will never really make money if it has to do unprofitable routes.

agreed. so for it to be profitable most of the routes in the country would likely have to go, including heavily used all be it not quite profitable routes. however, i'd imagine the huge increase in car usage would very much cost us a lot more then providing those services.

jimmycrackcorm

end of the road wrote: »

labour courts and laws aren't enough, enforcers and advisers are needed, aka unions are needed and exist. the unions don't hold the country to ransom and unionisation is good for workers. the country hasn't been brought to a stand still by unions for decades, in fact the snow is more likely to bring the country to a stand still then a strike.

Saying that laws aren't enough is a damning indictment of how much a scourge that unions are in this country. The Luas drivers strike only demonstrated that unions are there to blackmail and squeeze the public. Saying they are good for the workers is tantamount to saying the mafia is good for mafia members.

But this announcement is great for the people of Kildare who will get a bus service that isn't going to be experiencing the same disruption due to strikes as seen in BE. Another nail in the SIPTU / NBRU coffin.