Owning stuff is coming to an end?

drillyeye

I'd consider myself a collector in a few different hobbies, media and the likes.

One thing that has struck me, particularly over the last few years, is the almost exponential growth of prices. Books, for example, have gone up in price to a huge extent (collectables, not brand new stuff).

I see the same thing happening across cars, music, videos, electronics.......list goes on. And plenty of other people asking WTF is happening too.

Another thing is the significant push to rent everything, whether its pcp for cars, or "streaming" media and so on.

At the end of the day, a company makes far more money by you being a repeat customer tied to them forever, rather than a once off customer.

Is everything "ownable" being sucked up, hence higher and higher prices? Is this being driven by the push to be a renter forever?

You could even apply the logic to housing. "Get it while you still can, cos they aren't making more"

Your Face

No

hullaballoo

Under the Brehon law system, there was no concept of personal ownership. Resources were shared amongst the community so that everyone reaped the benefits of whatever the given resource was. Of course, there was no money in the equation to complicate matters. Bartering was really a minimal act to try and agree aggregate values of goods but it wasn't commodititised.

Basically, everything belonged to everyone and there was very little strife about it. The only exception to that was bees.

Vast texts were devoted to bees. And this is at a time where vast texts were numerable. There was the Ten Commandments and then there was the Brehon Law code on bees.

I think, in modern day parlance, the phrase would be "don't fcuk with another mothafcuker's bees"

Honey, innit.

Akrasia

Its what happens when wealth gets consolidated. Economic rent is the name given to economic activity that extracts wealth from ownership of assets rather than producing things of value.

As fewer people own a bigger proportion of the wealth, they 'invest' their wealth in hoarding resources that they think will be in demand later on. They can't find a productive use for their wealth, so they hoard valuable commodities and either create a scarcity or wait for one to emerge.

drillyeye

Your Face wrote: »

No

Besides consumables, have you not noticed the price of many things getting very high?

Its like anything of value is suddenly WAAYYYY more valuable.

I have a book that cost me about 300 quid a few years ago. That was the going rate. I had a look today and the new going rate is floating around 2 grand. Madness.

I bought a fairly unique enough car about 10 years ago, and its value has increased nearly 8 times. Again, nuts. There are a whole load of other things I'd be interested in, but I'm literally priced out of it now. Its like what I have is all I'll ever have, and the rest is only available to the super wealthy.

Whats going on?! And this is worldwide btw, not just Ireland.

Dohnjoe

What?

Electronics.. I can buy a smartphone for 100 quid that blows away phones from just a few years ago
Cars.. the same priced car is getting safer, more equipped, more efficient than previous models

In general. increased efficiency, competition and mass production has meant better prices, more choices, more options, better tech and higher quality than prior generations

drillyeye

Akrasia wrote: »

Its what happens when wealth gets consolidated. Economic rent is the name given to economic activity that extracts wealth from ownership of assets rather than producing things of value.

As fewer people own a bigger proportion of the wealth, they 'invest' their wealth in hoarding resources that they think will be in demand later on. They can't find a productive use for their wealth, so they hoard valuable commodities and either create a scarcity or wait for one to emerge.

That is my strong suspicion!

Are Am Eye

I don't things are so bad. I think you're inflating the problem OP.

drillyeye

Dohnjoe wrote: »

What?

Electronics.. I can buy a smartphone for 100 quid that blows away phones from just a few years ago
Cars.. the same priced car is getting safer, more equipped, more efficient than previous models

In general. increased efficiency, competition and mass production has meant better prices, more choices, more options, better tech and higher quality than prior generations

Yah but is that stuff of any long term value?

A phone is a 100 quid, but does it retain any value, will it be worth anything in 4 years time? You likely wont be able to give it away.

Cars........very very few have any intrinsic value. The money you spend on them drops off a cliff the moment you turn the key.

True value is in something that at least stays at the same cost you paid, or maybe even goes up. Anything that goes down is wasting money. Now you might be happy depending on the item, but as the other poster mentioned, it does seem to be a case of the smart/lucky ones buying up anything of ACTUAL value for the future.

While most people are wasting their money on stuff that will be junk in no time at all. Rich get richer, etc

eeguy

Akrasia wrote: »

Its what happens when wealth gets consolidated. Economic rent is the name given to economic activity that extracts wealth from ownership of assets rather than producing things of value.

As fewer people own a bigger proportion of the wealth, they 'invest' their wealth in hoarding resources that they think will be in demand later on. They can't find a productive use for their wealth, so they hoard valuable commodities and either create a scarcity or wait for one to emerge.

This isn't the one % though. This is just people in general having more disposable income and the time and means to research and buy collectables.

Vinyl, toys, retro games and books have gotten very popular in the last few years.

Then you have shows like pawn stars, America pickers and storage wars promoting the idea of going out and buying unique items.

Sure look at the increase of things like Pop Vinyl collectibles. Even beanie babies are back!

emo72

then theres the people who try to have no belongings. can you imagine owning or desiring nothing? just the clothes on your back, and a roof over your head. freedom. this is what scares wealthy people and governments the most. a world with no consumers. they are out there.

Your Face

drillyeye wrote: »

Besides consumables, have you not noticed the price of many things getting very high?

Its like anything of value is suddenly WAAYYYY more valuable.

I have a book that cost me about 300 quid a few years ago. That was the going rate. I had a look today and the new going rate is floating around 2 grand. Madness.

I bought a fairly unique enough car about 10 years ago, and its value has increased nearly 8 times. Again, nuts. There are a whole load of other things I'd be interested in, but I'm literally priced out of it now. Its like what I have is all I'll ever have, and the rest is only available to the super wealthy.

Whats going on?! And this is worldwide btw, not just Ireland.

Gold prices took a dip at the start of the month.

Rent is up because there is less property and more demand.

It's not a conspiracy.

With antiques, it follows trends like everything else.

Ubbquittious

No
Some USAian columnist might harp on about how 'millenials' prefer Uber to owning a car, love renting high rise apartments and get all their music from streaming sites but the reality is there are feck all other options for them because wage stagnation, lack of houses where the jobs are.

I have an old car thats worth feck all and my uncle has 4 more older ones in the shed also worth feck all but they're not the models the collectors are all vying for.

American megacorps are also pushing the monthly subscription model so they have a constant stream of income to pay their employees who are all up to their eyeballs in debt repayments. There is feck all money in hardware or designing physical objects because the Chinese just copy it if it's worthwhile so all the hardware companies are making simple widgets with some smarts that runs 'in de cloud' and hopefully out.of reach from copycats

drillyeye

Are Am Eye wrote: »

I don't things are so bad. I think you're inflating the problem OP.

Well if you are a collector (of anything, as far as I can make out), you'll definitely have noticed this trend the last few years.

Perhaps the most obvious example to everyone is housing. Its gotten so expensive now that its already out or reach of many, with no sign of it slowing down.

Its not exactly drastic YET, overall. But I'm seeing a definite trend, well on its way.

Speculation, across the board, is rising to levels I've never seen before. And as I already said, contrast that with the push to "rent" everything, or to "consume" everything......tip of an iceberg?

drillyeye

Your Face wrote: »

Gold prices took a dip at the start of the month.

Rent is up because there is less property and more demand.

It's not a conspiracy.

With antiques, it follows trends like everything else.

Yeah but look at any gold chart over a long enough time span.

Notice anything?

That same trend can be applied to a great many things nowadays, but on a much, much shorter timescale.

And your example of property is backing my position up, its getting too expensive for many people to ever own a home.

If I were talking about TRUE antiques, it would be expected. But the speculation has moved onto things that WILL be antiques. The game is being shored up right under your nose.

Summer In the City

The money I'm saving due to Spotify, Netflix and various tv players is huge. I used to spend a couple of hundred a month on dvds and cds.

Rent in Ireland is the only thing that was a problem but I'm gone so at the moment my cost of living is cheap, really cheap.

drillyeye

Ubbquittious wrote: »

No
Some USAian columnist might harp on about how 'millenials' prefer Uber to owning a car, love renting high rise apartments and get all their music from streaming sites but the reality is there are feck all other options for them because wage stagnation, lack of houses where the jobs are.

I have an old car thats worth feck all and my uncle has 4 more older ones in the shed also worth feck all but they're not the models the collectors are all vying for.

American megacorps are also pushing the monthly subscription model so they have a constant stream of income to pay their employees who are all up to their eyeballs in debt repayments. There is feck all money in hardware or designing physical objects because the Chinese just copy it if it's worthwhile so all the hardware companies are making simple widgets with some smarts that runs 'in de cloud' and hopefully out.of reach from copycats

Why does your post begin with a "no", but then agree with pretty much everything I'm saying?

Your Face

drillyeye wrote: »

Yeah but look at any gold chart over a long enough time span.

Notice anything?

I noticed that it's nowhere near its 2011 price.

drillyeye

Summer In the City wrote: »

The money I'm saving due to Spotify, Netflix and various tv players is huge. I used to spend a couple of hundred a month on dvds and cds.

Rent in Ireland is the only thing that was a problem but I'm gone so at the moment my cost of living is cheap, really cheap.

Well that's something I've realised fairly recently, that having money is good, but only to a certain extent.

You'll rarely hear of a millionaire that just lets it sit in a bank. They invest to multiply their capital.

Think of it like you having a euro, and a millionaire having a euro. Your euro will accrue like 1% a year in bank (if you don't pay charges). Whereas their euro is invested, and perhaps gaining 20%.

Their money is more valuable than yours, simply because they "own stuff".

My main point is that this idea of speculating on ownership seems to have taken a hefty does of crack cocaine, sucking up everything and anything.

I'm especially dubious of paying for subscriptions to stuff I'll never own. It might seem like youre saving short term, but at the end you'll be left with zero value. Even a stupid 2 euro dvd can be resold for a few pence later.

drillyeye

Your Face wrote: »

I noticed that it's nowhere near its 2011 price.

Try 1990.

And my point is that the same appreciation of the asset is happening to many things now.......only much , much quicker.

Your Face

drillyeye wrote: »

Try 1990.

And my point is that the same appreciation of the asset is happening to many things now.......only much , much quicker.

1990 price is approx. the same as the 2002 price.
With vast fluctuations inbetween those two points.

Your Face

drillyeye wrote: »

So you noticed the jump from appx 250 to 1350 then?

Did you see that?

I think you're looking at the graph upside down.

Are Am Eye

What was a set level of resources is depleting continuously. Along
side an increasing population.

It might be of benefit to hit a kind of crisis point at the earliest possible
moment. Then civilisation collapses, the collapse acting as a safety valve, culling great swathes of the world population. And leaving a smaller group of people living a simpler life.

The alternative is for technology to develop to the degree that we can exploit hitherto unavailable resources in this world or beyond in the stars.

Well. Isn't this a cheery conversation to end the day with.

drillyeye

Your Face wrote: »

1990 price is approx. the same as the 2002 price.
With vast fluctuations inbetween those two points.

Contrarian nonsense. Or maybe youre just the worst investor in the world.

drillyeye

Are Am Eye wrote: »

What was a set level of resources is depleting continuously. Along
side an increasing population.

It might be of benefit to hit a kind of crisis point at the earliest possible
moment. Then civilisation collapses, the collapse acting as a safety valve, culling great swathes of the world population. And leaving a smaller group of people living a simpler life.

The alternative is for technology to develop to the degree that we can exploit hitherto unavailable resources in this world or beyond in the stars.

Well. Isn't this a cheery conversation to end the day with.

"things are running out"......definitely a factor.

Your Face

drillyeye wrote: »

Contrarian nonsense. Or maybe youre just the worst investor in the world.

Stick to the point please.

drillyeye

Your Face wrote: »

Stick to the point please.

That's a few years out of date, but if you cant see the OVERALL trend (a perfect example of my point), then I'll have to ask what your major malfunction is, son!? :P

Your Face

drillyeye wrote: »

That's a few years out of date, but if you cant see the OVERALL trend (a perfect example of my point), then I'll have to ask what your major malfunction is, son!? :P

I love how you left out the recent years where it dropped off and fluctuated.

drillyeye

Your Face wrote: »

I love how left out the years where it dropped off and fluctuated.

Believe it or not I didn't create the graph.

Now, to follow you on your merry dance of avoiding defeat, can you tell me what a trend is?

Perhaps you can calculate a mean percentage increase, and explain what it tells you.

Would you like to have bought gold at ANYTIME before the year 2000? Or after?

Sweet jeebus!

Your Face

drillyeye wrote: »

Believe it or not I didn't create the graph.

I doubt you did, however, it conveniently fails to show the years I was talking about.

drillyeye wrote: »

Now, to follow you on your merry dance of avoiding defeat, can you tell me what a trend is?

Why are you posting like a forgettable Bond villain?

Come on, stick to the points.

Your arguments are all over the place.

Last chance.

Vic_08

drillyeye wrote: »

Yeah but look at any gold chart over a long enough time span.

Notice anything?

That same trend can be applied to a great many things nowadays, but on a much, much shorter timescale.

And your example of property is backing my position up, its getting too expensive for many people to ever own a home.

If I were talking about TRUE antiques, it would be expected. But the speculation has moved onto things that WILL be antiques. The game is being shored up right under your nose.

And a lot of these things will never yield the return people are hoping for. Like any commodity the value is based on what people will pay for it. Buying stuff in the expectation it will someday be valuable due to demand is a gamble, some items will never have the demand to make them worth much while others that nobody ever expected to be of value will.

The problem is that if you have the bright idea that item X will be worth a fortune in 20 years it's a safe bet that lots of other people will have the same idea and it may never be rare enough to generate demand.

On the other end of the spectrum is stuff that practically nobody would have considered worthwhile collecting when new is now extremely rare and has an increasing value, as supply is so limited these can hold value very well.

It is also the case that demand and prices can fall quickly, particularly with stuff that has a small collector base and a huge amount of profit driven traders. Once the smell of a downward trend hits the amount suddenly offered for sale outstrips those willing to buy and the "value" plummets.

It is true that genuine enthusiasts have been shafted by the prices in certain markets where they get squeezed out by the speculators. Classic cars are a particular case where increasingly they get bought as investments to be locked up in secure storage at prices way above most genuine enthusiasts who would like to own them for more than just monetary gain. In these markets the prices are also more volatile as they become a quasi-currency, there have been numerous cycles in the classic car market over the years as prices fall and rise like any other commodity traded primarily for it's speculative value.

Irish Guitarist

Years ago my brother in law was convinced he had a record worth a fortune. He had seen one of those Beatles compilations (known as the red and blue albums) on television. They said it was worth something like £100. However the one they were talking about was a rarity. I'm not sure what made it rare but there was something unique about it.

He told me about this when I was at his house one day and excitedly showed me his copy. I told him the one he had seen on television must have been a collectors item that differed somehow from the standard issue and apart from that it had to be in perfect condition. He replied "it is in perfect condition" ignoring the fact the cover was held together with sellotape. A couple of months later he was pissed off because he had tried to sell it and had been told it was worth something like a tenner. I could have told him that. It was a record that had been at number 2 or 3 in the charts and had been bought by millions of people.

This was before the rise of the internet but if this happened today he'd be putting it on eBay for €100 or more. People like him are the reason for inflated prices on eBay. Anyone can think they own something worth a fortune and try to sell it for ten times its value. Then there are people who think anything old is worth a fortune. I once saw someone selling a 'vintage' cassette cleaner for something like £15. You would have bought one of these in a pound shop years ago and thrown it away after using it about ten times.

You can still get plenty of old things like CDs and books from people who know what they're selling isn't that rare. I've bought more CDs in the last three years than I had in the last five or six before that.

Graces7

Dohnjoe wrote: »

What?

Electronics.. I can buy a smartphone for 100 quid that blows away phones from just a few years ago
Cars.. the same priced car is getting safer, more equipped, more efficient than previous models

In general. increased efficiency, competition and mass production has meant better prices, more choices, more options, better tech and higher quality than prior generations

I have 2 cellphones; tesco. One was 9.99 the other 14.99 Family in Canada cannot believe the prices here. I have no need of a smartphone and tesco call prices are excellent .. I am on pay as you go ....agree totally with your last para

and the charity shops sell books...

Wibbs

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

This was before the rise of the internet but if this happened today he'd be putting it on eBay for €100 or more. People like him are the reason for inflated prices on eBay. Anyone can think they own something worth a fortune and try to sell it for ten times its value. Then there are people who think anything old is worth a fortune.

+1. The internet has been a double edged sword as far as "collectables" are concerned. It massively opened up the market, brought more buyers and more sellers and provides information about such things we could only dream of twenty years ago. The downside has been because of more demand, the supply of relatively rare items has started to dry up. They're a finite resource and many collectors are hanging onto what they have. The stuff left over keeps going up in price.

I've seen that in vintage watch collecting. The prices started to climb in the mid noughties, since around 2010 the prices went daft. A second effect was when the big name stuff started to dry up on the supply side, lesser names were then pimped by dealers which egged on collectors which in turn drove those prices up.

What I have noticed in that particular market is that while interest appears to be still high, sales are sluggish. Another effect was on eBay where previously most were auctions, now they're buy it now sales(at high prices) and stay on sale for months, sometimes years. It's becoming a stagnant market. I saw similar years back with original film posters. Same trajectory. Started off cheap enough, went through the wider public discovery phase, more stuff came to market, prices went insane, market then stagnated and then devalued. The worst hit of course being the lesser quality items, but even the top stuff devalued. EG. I have an original Star Wars pre oscars UK quad poster I got as a kid back in the late 70's. At the peak of the curve 2000 quid, now, 800 maybe.

The other angle are items that are designed out of the box as "limited edition" collectables. This area really grew over the last twenty years. Vanishingly few of which are actually limited in number. A run of 2000 is not limited. But people buy into that feeling they're getting something unique and the market goes along with them. For a time, but almost always devalues in the long term. Truly limited and unique items are well, limited and unique and hold values over the longer term.

dxhound2005

drillyeye wrote: »

Well that's something I've realised fairly recently, that having money is good, but only to a certain extent.

You'll rarely hear of a millionaire that just lets it sit in a bank. They invest to multiply their capital.

Think of it like you having a euro, and a millionaire having a euro. Your euro will accrue like 1% a year in bank (if you don't pay charges). Whereas their euro is invested, and perhaps gaining 20%.

There are supposed to be tens of thousands of millionaires. I can safely say I don't even know who 99.9% of them are, never mind what they do with their money.

I would like to get more details of that investment returning 20%. I think it should be made available to everyone, not just millionaires.

silverharp

hullaballoo wrote: »

Under the Brehon law system, there was no concept of personal ownership. Resources were shared amongst the community so that everyone reaped the benefits of whatever the given resource was. Of course, there was no money in the equation to complicate matters. Bartering was really a minimal act to try and agree aggregate values of goods but it wasn't commodititised.

Basically, everything belonged to everyone and there was very little strife about it. The only exception to that was bees.

Vast texts were devoted to bees. And this is at a time where vast texts were numerable. There was the Ten Commandments and then there was the Brehon Law code on bees.

I think, in modern day parlance, the phrase would be "don't fcuk with another mothafcuker's bees"

Honey, innit.

It works when there is nothing worth owning

Malayalam

drillyeye wrote: »

"things are running out"......definitely a factor.

I don't know about 'stuff'..I hate stuff, makes me irritated looking at it, gathering dust, taking up space, wardrobes heaving, sills and shelves sagging, garages bursting, things being..well, irritating; I divest rather than invest. But about your more general suspicion, the semblance of scarcity and so on, I think it is a manipulation of facts. Could be wrong, of course.
We are always being told everything is running out, fresh water, clean air, food, fossil fuels, and our economies are based on this mantra. The proles fret and recycle and pay special taxes on 'scarce' things, the powerful squander with abandon. What makes me think scarcity is a manipulation is observing the basic cycle of life. The sun - the central source of all life - gives ceaselessly without asking payment, the seed sprouts and produces a plant which bears many more seeds, all of which have the potential to infintely produce, on this abundance the various species thrive, including us. Nature shows us cycles of regular surplus, excess, abundance, with, yes, intermittent extinctions, (but what ya gonna do about that?) Sure, some things are going to run out, fossil fuels and so on, but other energy sources will emerge (are being under-invested at the moment). I don't subscribe to over-population theories - it will level out. There is enough to feed us all with the help of good technology, modification of the desire for excess meat in diet, excellent agricultural and husbandry techniques and so on.
It all goes abit pear-shaped when some people like to collect too much. Yachts and mansions and super cars and 'precious' metals and ores, and corporately-enslaved populations and their work/produce... and all the means of production (hehe )

wakka12

Hmm I doubt it really Id bet my life in 200 hundred years people will still own a lot of things

Wanderer78

Great thread, yes I agree, we re creating a highly complex modern 'rentier class'.

Irish Guitarist

Here's an example of the inflated prices people think they can charge on eBay for anything 'vintage'. This is a secondhand cassette cleaner most likely used far too much already (they were only meant to be used about ten times and thrown away). It's being sold for almost €10. https://www.ebay.ie/itm/PHILIPS-881-CCT-Vintage-Cassette-Head-Cleaner/302638561677

I have no idea who would buy something like this. It's unusable so presumably the seller expects a 'collector' to buy it. I've never in my life met anyone that collects old tape cleaners.

Sabre0001

hullaballoo wrote: »

Under the Brehon law system, there was no concept of personal ownership. Resources were shared amongst the community so that everyone reaped the benefits of whatever the given resource was.

A bit like Netflix accounts today then


I do find that I've bought less in recent years. Netflix for movies/TV, Cineworld card for new movies, Spotify for music. Videogames are one of my purchases, but even at that there's the push (and draw) to trade-in. But as sugarman said that's not the worst thing in the world, provided you make use of your subscription (hello gym membership...).

topper75

hullaballoo wrote: »

Under the Brehon law system, there was no concept of personal ownership...

The much-vaunted Brehon laws are often presented as some sort of erstwhile Marxist fantasy, but to do so requires you to pretend that there was no enshrinement of slavery (not metaphorical slavery like people today whinge about, rather actual slaves). The medium of exchange that we take for granted as money was yet to be brought by the norsemen so the laws had to carefully outline rights to limited resources. Those rights were in turn derived from designated social status.

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Years ago my brother in law was convinced he had a record worth a fortune. He had seen one of those Beatles compilations (known as the red and blue albums) on television. They said it was worth something like £100...

They can say this and your brother can say that. It's all just dust in the wind though if there is no buyer out there willing hand over such readies for it.

That is the true value of something - the highest amount some potential buyer out there is genuinely willing to pay.

eeguy

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Here's an example of the inflated prices people think they can charge on eBay for anything 'vintage'. This is a secondhand cassette cleaner most likely used far too much already (they were only meant to be used about ten times and thrown away). It's being sold for almost €10. https://www.ebay.ie/itm/PHILIPS-881-CCT-Vintage-Cassette-Head-Cleaner/302638561677

I have no idea who would buy something like this. It's unusable so presumably the seller expects a 'collector' to buy it. I've never in my life met anyone that collects old tape cleaners.

Here's a great video of a company that still makes tape cassettes.
Business is booming with hipsters who think vinyl is too mainstream and people buying the Guardians of the Galaxy soundtrack :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ubbquittious

drillyeye wrote: »

Why does your post begin with a "no", but then agree with pretty much everything I'm saying?

Because people have more stuff now than they ever had before. Go back into the 1950s and look at the inside of your average thatched Irish cottage. Feck all inside. Now your average home is filled to the brim with cheap consumer goods and garments from SE Asia. For all the tech companies try to charge a monthly fee for there is usually a free / open source alternative.

Most of the "end of ownership" articles you see are created by someone in the tech industry dreaming of a future when everyone is keeping him employed by paying him lots of monthly fees for running some automated system he created years ago and hasn't touched since.

Wanderer78

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Because people have more stuff now than they ever had before. Go back into the 1950s and look at the inside of your average thatched Irish cottage. Feck all inside. Now your average home is filled to the brim with cheap consumer goods and garments from SE Asia. For all the tech companies try to charge a monthly fee for there is usually a free / open source alternative.

Most of the "end of ownership" articles you see are created by someone in the tech industry dreaming of a future when everyone is keeping him employed by paying him lots of monthly fees for running some automated system he created years ago and hasn't touched since.

yes, society has indeed 'access' to far more goods and services than previous generations, but the term 'access' is critical in this understanding. we are not gaining 'equal access' to the wealth created from these processes and systems that are yielding these goods and services, in fact, this growing inequality is a big problem for us all

AlphabetCards

emo72 wrote: »

then theres the people who try to have no belongings. can you imagine owning or desiring nothing? just the clothes on your back, and a roof over your head. freedom. this is what scares wealthy people and governments the most. a world with no consumers. they are out there.

You need to watch Survive The Jive on youtube.