Salisbury Nerve Agent Attack

demfad

As good a place as any for the Salisbury attack.
IMO the objective here was to stoke a response from the UK to boost nationalist support for Putin at home. With an election looming the candidate Navalny whom was disqualified via a 'trial' (discredited by ECHR) has called for Russians to not vote. A very low turnout puts Putin in a weak position domeatically.

The nerve agent used was one of a series developed by the USSR. The UK has reasonably concluded that either the Russian State has attacked the UK or that they have lost control of the nerve agent to outsiders.
Eitherway the Russians should be able to clarify.
My own view is that a better response is to enforce the full Magnitsky sanctions and to boycott and ignore Putin as a world leader. That would hurt him.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/russia-demands-nerve-agent-samples-uk-deadline-spy-poisoning

VinLieger

demfad wrote: »

As good a place as any for the Salisbury attack.
IMO the objective here was to stoke a response from the UK to boost nationalist support for Putin at home. With an election looming the candidate Navalny whom was disqualified via a 'trial' (discredited by ECHR) has called for Russians to not vote. A very low turnout puts Putin in a weak position domeatically.

The nerve agent used was one of a series developed by the USSR. The UK has reasonably concluded that either the Russian State has attacked the UK or that they have lost control of the nerve agent to outsiders.
Eitherway the Russians should be able to clarify.
My own view is that a better response is to enforce the full Magnitsky sanctions and to boycott and ignore Putin as a world leader. That would hurt him.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/russia-demands-nerve-agent-samples-uk-deadline-spy-poisoning

With Trump in the WH having a russia love in and his refusal to confirm article 5 of NATO, this whole thing reeks of an attempt by Putin to seriously undermine and fracture NATO as he knows the UK can't back down from such a brazen affront on their own soil against their own people and with Trump probably in his pocket the US wont back them up.

The dissolution of NATO has been a major goal of Russia for decades.

demfad

VinLieger wrote: »

With Trump in the WH having a russia love in and his refusal to confirm article 5 of NATO, this whole thing reeks of an attempt by Putin to seriously undermine and fracture NATO as he knows the UK can't back down from such a brazen affront on their own soil against their own people and with Trump probably in his pocket the US wont back them up.

The dissolution of NATO has been a major goal of Russia for decades.

As has been Brexit as the UK were the most serious Russian hawks in the EU security council.
There is undeniable evidence that there was a vast Russian operation at work for Brexit in tandem with Robert Mercer, Steve Bannon and other far-right US figures doing back several years.

Chips Lovell

Created a new thread for this as it's probably worth it's own one.

Sierra Oscar

It's also putting strain on the relationship between the US and the UK. This US administration seems very adverse to stoking up tensions with Russia, something which Putin seems to be well aware of. Yesterday the White House refused to directly name Russia as a suspect in this attack, something which took the UK political and security establishment by surprise.

As a previous poster mentioned, this attack, and a whole series of other events, seems to be designed to create instability within NATO.

demfad

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It's also putting strain on the relationship between the US and the UK. This US administration seems very adverse to stoking up tensions with Russia, something which Putin seems to be well aware of. Yesterday the White House refused to directly name Russia as a suspect in this attack, something which took the UK political and security establishment by surprise.

As a previous poster mentioned, this attack, and a whole series of other events, seems to be designed to create instability within NATO.

It is my own belief was that the firing of SOS Tillerson was not planned for today but rather was brought forward to take attention away from the presidents inability to condemn Russians for the Salisbury attack.
Neither the attack nor his lack of condemnation for it could be wished away as 'Fake news'. Ergo a radical change of news story required.

Inquitus

demfad wrote: »

It is my own belief was that the firing of SOS Tillerson was not planned for today but rather was brought forward to take attention away from the presidents inability to condemn Russians for the Salisbury attack.
Neither the attack nor his lack of condemnation for it could be wished away as 'Fake news'. Ergo a radical change of news story required.

Aye Sarah Sanders went to painstaking lengths to not mention Russia when quizzed on this yesterday.....

demfad

The atatck seemed to be an effort to boost Russian nationalism ahead of the Russian presendential elections. Putin's oponents have called for a boycott.
A very low turnout undermines his credibility.
He needs a scrap with the west. The west (whats left of it) should think it through. He is weak. Sanctions + ignore.

demfad

Another potential murder yesterday!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/13/russian-businessman-close-associate-ofboris-berezovsky-found/

C
ounter terrorism police have launched an investigation into the ‘unexplained’ death of a Russian business partner of Boris Berezovsky, Vladimir Putin’s arch enemy.
Nikolai Grushkov, 69, was found dead at his home in New Malden in south London on Monday evening.
Grushkov was the closest aide to Berezovsky who died in mysterious circumstances in 2013 at his home in Surrey. The death of Grushkov just eight days after the attempted assassination of Sergei Skripal, the Russian double agent who sold state secrets to MI6, will cause alarm although Scotland yard has insisted there is no evidence to suggest the two incidents are linked

demfad

Putin a few days ago:

He said Western sanctions for Moscow's annexation of Crimea and the insurgency in eastern Ukraine were part of "illegitimate and unfair" efforts to contain Russia, but added that "we will win in the long run". He continued: "Those who serve us with poison will eventually swallow it and poison themselves."

https://amp.independent.ie/world-news/europe/russias-foes-will-be-served-poison-putin-36682387.html

mickmackey1

It appears the Skripals landed at Heathrow on March 3rd and fell ill on March 4th. Is it possible they were already infected before boarding the plane?

Peregrinus

mickmackey1 wrote: »

It appears the Skripals landed at Heathrow on March 3rd and fell ill on March 4th. Is it possible they were already infected before boarding the plane?

No. Nerve agents act very quickly indeed.

Captain Obvious

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. Nerve agents act very quickly indeed.

But is it possible the nerve agent was in something they had brought home with them? Has it been discovered how it was administered?

Peregrinus

It's not yet clear how it was administered. Reportedly, there were traces of it of it in the restaurant in which they had lunch, so it may have been administered there. Others who used the restaurant that day, plus the staff, have been advised on decontamination measures. On the other hand, a police officer who was sent to their home has also fallen ill, which may point to contamination in the home. Decontamination efforts are widespread, which may suggest that the authorities are still unsure as to where the attack occurred.

As to how it occurred, it was most likely administered topically, that is, by application to the skin. You can also administer it by forcing someone to breath it in, e.g. by covering their mouth and nose with an agent-infused cloth, but an attack of that kind would have been noticed.

demfad

Repsonse of Theresa May is laughably weak, I think Russia were taken aback by how weak it was.

She needed to hit where it hurt without escalation.
Since the attack there has been a mass saturation of UK social media by Russian assets like the IRA, Sputnik and RT as well as the SM accounts of the Russian UK embassy, Wikileaks etc. This massive disinformation campaign has actually suceeded in getting conspiracy theories into the mainstream and everyday conversations. Is the UK going to tolerate their population beinge exposed to overt and covert Russian propaganda and disinformation which useful idiots on the right and left can then pick up as suits?

RT and Sputnik need to be banned as media outlets. They are arms of the Russian State and weapons of hybrid warfare.

SM sites need to be defined as publishers which would introduce needed regulation external and internal to these companies.

UK up their NATO spending and push for more cooperation and security along EU/Russian border.

All political parties to return any donations in full from Russian oligarchs.

Implement the FULL Magnitsky act.

None of these repisals would have made escalation inevitable and Russia them all.

pearcider

demfad wrote: »

Repsonse of Theresa May is laughably weak, I think Russia were taken aback by how weak it was.

She needed to hit where it hurt without escalation.
Since the attack there has been a mass saturation of UK social media by Russian assets like the IRA, Sputnik and RT as well as the SM accounts of the Russian UK embassy, Wikileaks etc. This massive disinformation campaign has actually suceeded in getting conspiracy theories into the mainstream and everyday conversations. Is the UK going to tolerate their population beinge exposed to overt and covert Russian propaganda and disinformation which useful idiots on the right and left can then pick up as suits?

RT and Sputnik need to be banned as media outlets. They are arms of the Russian State and weapons of hybrid warfare.

SM sites need to be defined as publishers which would introduce needed regulation external and internal to these companies.

UK up their NATO spending and push for more cooperation and security along EU/Russian border.

All political parties to return any donations in full from Russian oligarchs.

Implement the FULL Magnitsky act.

None of these repisals would have made escalation inevitable and Russia them all.

Yes let's all have a nuclear holocaust. This all started from NATO encircling and threatening Russia. Armchair generals like you and Boris Johnson are what frighten me.

Samaris

pearcider wrote: »

Yes let's all have a nuclear holocaust. This all started from NATO encircling and threatening Russia. Armchair generals like you and Boris Johnson are what frighten me.

Er, does sanctions, implementing the Magnitsky act, banning Russian donations to British political parties and upping military spending at least to (or over, in UK's case) NATO requirements really qualify as nuclear holocaust?

Call me naive, but I thought it did have to involve nukes.

_____

Also, yeah, the Russian trolls are out in force in UK media at the moment. The conspiracy theories are rather frightening. Not even bothering to come up with an alternative "enemy", but zeroed right in on "it was the British government" straight off.

Shows how confident they've gotten. And sadly, it's working.

pearcider

Samaris wrote: »

Er, does sanctions, implementing the Magnitsky act, banning Russian donations to British political parties and upping military spending at least to (or over, in UK's case) NATO requirements really qualify as nuclear holocaust?

Call me naive, but I thought it did have to involve nukes.

_____

Also, yeah, the Russian trolls are out in force in UK media at the moment. The conspiracy theories are rather frightening. Not even bothering to come up with an alternative "enemy", but zeroed right in on "it was the British government" straight off.

Shows how confident they've gotten. And sadly, it's working.

Yeah well you seem to be all for war mongering and increasing tension. At the end of the day, it was an attempted murder of a spook by a spook. Big deal. It's not as if the Brits don't play the same dirty games. Certainly not worth having a war over. It doesn't take a Russian troll to tell the British public that they are being manipulated. Its been obvious since the 19th century opium wars. The western elite are just as scummy and sadistic as their Russian counterparts.

Samaris

pearcider wrote: »

Yeah well you seem to be all for war mongering and increasing tension. At the end of the day, it was an attempted murder of a spook by a spook. Big deal. It's not as if the Brits don't play the same dirty games. Certainly not worth having a war over. It doesn't take a Russian troll to tell the British public that they are being manipulated. Its been obvious since the 19th century opium wars. The western elite are just as scummy and sadistic as their Russian counterparts.

??

Yis are being a little paranoid. I say that sanctions etc do not equal nuclear holocaust and you...accuse me of being a war-mongerer?

To get to the bottom of this - what do you think "nuclear holocaust" means?

listermint

pearcider wrote: »

Yeah well you seem to be all for war mongering and increasing tension. At the end of the day, it was an attempted murder of a spook by a spook. Big deal. It's not as if the Brits don't play the same dirty games. Certainly not worth having a war over. It doesn't take a Russian troll to tell the British public that they are being manipulated. Its been obvious since the 19th century opium wars. The western elite are just as scummy and sadistic as their Russian counterparts.

Well then you will agree Putin is as scummy as what the British got up to the last hundred years right ?

So the EU should tackle this at all levels to insure it isn't manipulated the same way.

You agree?

pearcider

listermint wrote: »

Well then you will agree Putin is as scummy as what the British got up to the last hundred years right ?

So the EU should tackle this at all levels to insure it isn't manipulated the same way.

You agree?

No I don't agree. Putin is "over there", a very different world to the west. The west should show some respect and keep its nose out of other nations affairs. Also the trouble making english won't be in the EU for much longer thankfully. All I want is a peaceful world, not one threatened by nuclear annihilation. Why has the Anglo American establishment continue to antagonize Russia since the collapse of the USSR. That is the question the public need to be asking.

pearcider

From the ascension of the former Warsaw Pact countries into NATO in 1999 to the withdrawal from the ABM treaty in 2002 to the numerous wars in the Middle East not least the Iraq war based let us not forget on false pretenses. All indefensible to any impartial observer. It is clear the Anglo American elite are determined to subjugate Russia at every turn and take them into their strange and suffocating neo liberal fold. Well I for one think taking that strategy with a country with the stubbornness and nuclear capability of Russia is absolutely insane.

demfad

pearcider wrote: »

Yeah well you seem to be all for war mongering and increasing tension. At the end of the day, it was an attempted murder of a spook by a spook. Big deal. It's not as if the Brits don't play the same dirty games. Certainly not worth having a war over. It doesn't take a Russian troll to tell the British public that they are being manipulated. Its been obvious since the 19th century opium wars. The western elite are just as scummy and sadistic as their Russian counterparts.

You don't understand. You and the Russian trolls in the most cases are agreeing with the the Brexiters manipulation of the British public. You amplified it created hate memes and amplified hate stories. The pro Brexit stories circulated by RT and Sputnik alone literally amounted to a financial output equivalent to Vote Leave and Leave.EU.

pearcider wrote: »

No I don't agree. Putin is "over there", a very different world to the west. The west should show some respect and keep its nose out of other nations affairs. Also the trouble making english won't be in the EU for much longer thankfully. All I want is a peaceful world, not one threatened by nuclear annihilation. Why has the Anglo American establishment continue to antagonize Russia since the collapse of the USSR. That is the question the public need to be asking.

Russia has used information warfare to seriously interfere with politics, societies and democratic elections in over 20 countries in the last decade. Your hypocrisy is astounding.

In Last weeks Sunday Times Ireland ediction the interference in our own democracy started to be revealed. All 3 intelligence agencies active in Ireland. Attempts to purchase IT equipment most likely to set up VPNs here were intercepted. What has this neutral country done to deserve this aggressive treatment from your nation? Why are you preparing to attack us?

listermint

demfad wrote: »

You don't understand. You and the Russian trolls in the most cases are agreeing with the the Brexiters manipulation of the British public. You amplified it created hate memes and amplified hate stories. The pro Brexit stories circulated by RT and Sputnik alone literally amounted to a financial output equivalent to Vote Leave and Leave.EU.



Russia has used information warfare to seriously interfere with politics, societies and democratic elections in over 20 countries in the last decade. Your hypocrisy is astounding.

In Last weeks Sunday Times Ireland ediction the interference in our own democracy started to be revealed. All 3 intelligence agencies active in Ireland. Attempts to purchase IT equipment most likely to set up VPNs here were intercepted. What has this neutral country done to deserve this aggressive treatment from your nation? Why are you preparing to attack us?

Exactly!


Its cheaper for Putin to wage this type of war, and make no mistake its actual war. Its being going on for over a decade and its so cost efficient Putin has no need to pour billions into the military machine anymore, He can pour into offshore funds of his own.

As for the notion from Pear that the EU is interferring in Russian affairs its quite the opposite. Putin is actively engaged in subversion of democracy. It does not really matter if it works or not its the act of subversion making the other side spend money arguing over something that is worth while to him

A strong EU , strong UK or Strong USA is not what he wants he wants to break it up because any of these 3 in strength impact him directly financially. And he cant have that.

If Pear thinks this has anything to do with Russia itself he is highly mistaken. Its about Putins wealth and putins power nothing more.

Elmer Blooker

demfad wrote: »

The atatck seemed to be an effort to boost Russian nationalism ahead of the Russian presendential elections. Putin's oponents have called for a boycott.
A very low turnout undermines his credibility.
He needs a scrap with the west. The west (whats left of it) should think it through. He is weak. Sanctions + ignore.

Putin's "opponents" did not call for a boycott, you are deliberately spreading misinformation. It was only that attention seeking , self serving clown named Navalny that did. He is known as an "opposition leader" in our servile media but no one could actually name the party that he "leads" if they were asked
He is just another Pussy Riot gimmick more interested in a photo opportunity.
If Putin is so weak you would wonder why the west is completely obsessed with him and are spending billions to undermine Russia?
I would agree with your "whats left of it" bit. It does seem that a Russia/China bloc is a very serious threat to the west and must be contained at all costs.
WW3 anyone?

What has this neutral country done to deserve this aggressive treatment from your nation? Why are you preparing to attack us?

Inflammatory comments which are out of order in my opinion.

pearcider

listermint wrote: »

Exactly!


Its cheaper for Putin to wage this type of war, and make no mistake its actual war. Its being going on for over a decade and its so cost efficient Putin has no need to pour billions into the military machine anymore, He can pour into offshore funds of his own.

As for the notion from Pear that the EU is interferring in Russian affairs its quite the opposite. Putin is actively engaged in subversion of democracy. It does not really matter if it works or not its the act of subversion making the other side spend money arguing over something that is worth while to him

A strong EU , strong UK or Strong USA is not what he wants he wants to break it up because any of these 3 in strength impact him directly financially. And he cant have that.

If Pear thinks this has anything to do with Russia itself he is highly mistaken. Its about Putins wealth and putins power nothing more.

My hypocrisy is astounding? What about the Brits and American antagonizing actions since 1999? You're being played if you think this is about democracy or anything so noble as that. This is about subjugating Russia into the Anglo American fold. Nothing more. You probably believe that the yanks were right to invade Iraq too. In which case, I have a load of phony WMD to sell you pal!

listermint

pearcider wrote: »

My hypocrisy is astounding? What about the Brits and American antagonizing actions since 1999? You're being played if you think this is about democracy or anything so noble as that. This is about subjugating Russia into the Anglo American fold. Nothing more. You probably believe that the yanks were right to invade Iraq too. In which case, I have a load of phony WMD to sell you pal!

I have Zero truck for the US or British imperalism, I thought you may have gathered that from my previous posts.

And dont put your perceived notions in my beliefs.

What i dont subscribe to is those that peddle anti UI and anti EU nonsense going around making Putin look like he is just 'defending' his country from an onslaught.

Hes a ruthless cruel money maker. He is the type of individual Trump wishes he was. He had people removed to get the money he has now and he is just as ruthless to protect it.


Whats hilarious is various irish people here and on facebook sucking up the propaganda that he isnt evil and is just a nationalist businessman trying to protect his little corner of the world.

Laughable.

pearcider

listermint wrote: »

I have Zero truck for the US or British imperalism, I thought you may have gathered that from my previous posts.

And dont put your perceived notions in my beliefs.

What i dont subscribe to is those that peddle anti UI and anti EU nonsense going around making Putin look like he is just 'defending' his country from an onslaught.

Hes a ruthless cruel money maker. He is the type of individual Trump wishes he was. He had people removed to get the money he has now and he is just as ruthless to protect it.


Whats hilarious is various irish people here and on facebook sucking up the propaganda that he isnt evil and is just a nationalist businessman trying to protect his little corner of the world.

Laughable.

Right. So you think it's a battle of good vs evil. Of course. No wonder you want WW3. What's the story with all these apocalyptic armchair generals floating around these days? I just hope you're on the front line and you put your own life in danger.

Triangle

pearcider wrote: »

Right. So you think it's a battle of good vs evil. Of course. No wonder you want WW3. What's the story with all these apocalyptic armchair generals floating around these days? I just hope you're on the front line and you put your own life in danger.

Wow, you have a very slanted and biased view of the world. You seem to overlook the shooting down of a passenger plane and invading a country as antagonistic.
When brutes go around using force to take what they want, they need to be stood up to.

When Hitler invaded country after country and England tried in vain to talk to him. It all ended in war in the end, only one person was to blame for the war. The nationalistic, war mongerer that put his nations need ahead of all the people killed.

demfad

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Putin's "opponents" did not call for a boycott, you are deliberately spreading misinformation. It was only that attention seeking , self serving clown named Navalny that did. He is known as an "opposition leader" in our servile media but no one could actually name the party that he "leads" if they were asked
He is just another Pussy Riot gimmick more interested in a photo opportunity.

"Hundreds of supporters of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny began a nationwide day of protest against the authorities on Sunday, calling on voters to boycott what they said was a rigged presidential election on March
Beneath bright blue skies, hundreds of young people gathered in the main square of the port of Vladivostok in the Russian Far East. Speakers called the election, which polls show incumbent Vladimir Putin should easily win, a farce." https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/28/russian-opposition-takes-to-streets-calls-for-election-boycott.html

Do you believe these people are supporters or opponents of Putin? Good man, correct. Stop spreading disinformation.

I would agree with your "whats left of it" bit. It does seem that a Russia/China bloc is a very serious threat to the west and must be contained at all costs.
WW3 anyone?

Attached is a PDF of a US congressional study documenting 20 countries that have been attacked in thsi decade via information warfare. We know that Russia also admitted that its forces were responsible for invading Crimea and East Ukraine. THis kind of invasion has NOT happenned in Europe since WW2. Destabilising democracies and invading them brings us closer to war. Wouldn't you agree?

Inflammatory comments which are out of order in my opinion.

The Sunday Times reported that Russian intellience has been observed and intercepted trying to aquire IT equipment in Ireland, human assets and has upgraded massively its technological capabilities from its embassy here. It has upgarded the embassy to a very large compound and is oerating nefariously from it. In EVERY other State that this behaviour has occurred Russia has moved to attack it with disinformationa nd sometimes Cyberwarfare. The indictment of 13 Russians by Mueller indicate their prepatory work was similar to what gardai have observed here.

Ergo I can declare with reasonable certainty that they are up to no good here and that the "no-good" based on all their previous attacks will amount to information warfare against the democratic processes of thsi state and to widen and polarise existing positions creating division and chaos.

Calling something inflammatory while talking through your back side wont cut it. Be offended if you like.

pearcider

Triangle wrote: »

Wow, you have a very slanted and biased view of the world. You seem to overlook the shooting down of a passenger plane and invading a country as antagonistic.
When brutes go around using force to take what they want, they need to be stood up to.

When Hitler invaded country after country and England tried in vain to talk to him. It all ended in war in the end, only one person was to blame for the war. The nationalistic, war mongerer that put his nations need ahead of all the people killed.

The Ukraine is Russia's back yard. The Russians were inevitably going to make a stand against western expansion at some point. There are no good guys here. But you seem to think western interests are entirely benign. Wake up.

Elmer Blooker

demfad wrote: »

"Hundreds of supporters of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny began a nationwide day of protest against the authorities on Sunday, calling on voters to boycott what they said was a rigged presidential election on March
Beneath bright blue skies, hundreds of young people gathered in the main square of the port of Vladivostok in the Russian Far East. Speakers called the election, which polls show incumbent Vladimir Putin should easily win, a farce." https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/28/russian-opposition-takes-to-streets-calls-for-election-boycott.html

Do you believe these people are supporters or opponents of Putin? Good man, correct. Stop spreading disinformation.





Attached is a PDF of a US congressional study documenting 20 countries that have been attacked in thsi decade via information warfare. We know that Russia also admitted that its forces were responsible for invading Crimea and East Ukraine. THis kind of invasion has NOT happenned in Europe since WW2. Destabilising democracies and invading them brings us closer to war. Wouldn't you agree?




The Sunday Times reported that Russian intellience has been observed and intercepted trying to aquire IT equipment in Ireland, human assets and has upgraded massively its technological capabilities from its embassy here. It has upgarded the embassy to a very large compound and is oerating nefariously from it. In EVERY other State that this behaviour has occurred Russia has moved to attack it with disinformationa nd sometimes Cyberwarfare. The indictment of 13 Russians by Mueller indicate their prepatory work was similar to what gardai have observed here.

Ergo I can declare with reasonable certainty that they are up to no good here and that the "no-good" based on all their previous attacks will amount to information warfare against the democratic processes of thsi state and to widen and polarise existing positions creating division and chaos.

Calling something inflammatory while talking through your back side wont cut it. Be offended if you like.

Why are you preparing to attack us?

This IS inflammatory ^

I'm as interested in Navalny as I am in Pussy Riot - same thing, attention seekers.

You went to the trouble of posting a long reply but sorry, I wouldn't depend on a US Congressional study or the Sunday Times as reliable or impartial sources.

weisses

pearcider wrote: »

The Ukraine is Russia's back yard. The Russians were inevitably going to make a stand against western expansion at some point. There are no good guys here. But you seem to think western interests are entirely benign. Wake up.

So Russia's phobia against the west somehow makes it okay to invade a sovereign nation .... got it :rolleyes: Dunno how this connects to Skripal though

weisses

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

This IS inflammatory ^

I'm as interested in Navalny as I am in Pussy Riot - same thing, attention seekers.

You went to the trouble of posting a long reply but sorry, I wouldn't depend on a US Congressional study or the Sunday Times as reliable or impartial sources.

What do you find an impartial source ?

mcmoustache

weisses wrote: »

So Russia's phobia against the west somehow makes it okay to invade a sovereign nation .... got it :rolleyes: Dunno how this connects to Skripal though

That's the idea. Pretty much all threads on Russia end up with whataboutism. it's really easy to spot.

pearcider

weisses wrote: »

So Russia's phobia against the west somehow makes it okay to invade a sovereign nation .... got it :rolleyes: Dunno how this connects to Skripal though

Russia's phobia to the west. Hmmm it's quite clear the Cold War continues against the Russians. 1999 NATO expansion. 2002 AMB treaty withdrawal. 2003 Iraq war under false pretences. Need I go on? All extremely provocative acts by the west. Anybody would think they wanted a war...which of course, they do.

Skripal is part of the bigger picture. The ongoing war waged by the Anglo American establishment against Russia. Skripal was a spy at the end of the day one of the KGBs own. Spies are murdered all the time. My sympathy is limited.

weisses

pearcider wrote: »

Russia's phobia to the west. Hmmm it's quite clear the Cold War continues against the Russians. 1999 NATO expansion. 2002 AMB treaty withdrawal. 2003 Iraq war under false pretences. Need I go on? All extremely provocative acts by the west. Anybody would think they wanted a war...which of course, they do.

Engaging in whataboutery is not making your point any clearer

Dont mix up countries looking for safety because they were sick of communist rule with western expansion.

Trying to make your point by saying that the bad Americans did it as well doesn't stick

pearcider wrote: »

Skripal is part of the bigger picture. The ongoing war waged by the Anglo American establishment against Russia. Skripal was a spy at the end of the day one of the KGBs own. Spies are murdered all the time. My sympathy is limited.

Ohh so now he was poisoned by the anglo American establishment ? ... right

At least you are not hiding your blind devotion and allegiance

listermint

pearcider wrote: »

Russia's phobia to the west. Hmmm it's quite clear the Cold War continues against the Russians. 1999 NATO expansion. 2002 AMB treaty withdrawal. 2003 Iraq war under false pretences. Need I go on? All extremely provocative acts by the west. Anybody would think they wanted a war...which of course, they do.

Skripal is part of the bigger picture. The ongoing war waged by the Anglo American establishment against Russia. Skripal was a spy at the end of the day one of the KGBs own. Spies are murdered all the time. My sympathy is limited.

You know the Ukraine is a sovereign nation , right ?

And if they want to join the EU common market just like Poland did then thats their business.

Its none of Russias business if other countries want to improve their lot and that of their citizens.

Russian government actually despised the fact Euro 2012 was shared between Poland and Ukraine as it was seen as tightening up the links between the perception of being European inside ukraine.

Its really really really funny that the likes of yourself seem to think Russia has some form of excuse to railroad itself into Ukraine because it perceives EU expansion into a sovereign nation as bad for itself.

You are talking out of 2 sides of your mouth and this whole bad versus evil is something you created I only think of countries having the ability to decide their own destiny from within.


What is your affiliation with Putin because youve done nothing but protect obfuscate and deride any points against him.

Do you actually really view yourself as impartial

pearcider

weisses wrote: »

Engaging in whataboutery is not making your point any clearer

Dont mix up countries looking for safety because they were sick of communist rule with western expansion.

Trying to make your point stick by saying that the bad Americans did it as well doesn't stick



Ohh so now he was poisoned by the anglo American establishment ? ... right

At least you are not hiding your blind devotion and allegiance

The fact is we don't know why he was poisoned and don't pretend you do. But we do know he was a dodgy character, a spook and much like a mafioso or Islamic terrorist, fair game for a violent end.

mcmoustache

pearcider wrote: »

The fact is we don't know why he was poisoned and don't pretend you do. But we do know he was a dodgy character, a spook and much like a mafioso or Islamic terrorist, fair game for a violent end.

I'm not sure many are arguing against that. What makes this different is the indiscriminate nature of the chemical attack. British civilians were victims.

pearcider

One more point, it's not whataboutery to show you three major geopolitical decisions made by the west that even the man on the street could see would greatly alienate Russia. NATO expansion, ABM treaty withdrawal, Iraq war which was unprovoked aggression against a sovereign nation. You seem to ignore all this and act like Russia is evil and acting in a vacuum. Wake up.

listermint

pearcider wrote: »

The fact is we don't know why he was poisoned and don't pretend you do. But we do know he was a dodgy character, a spook and much like a mafioso or Islamic terrorist, fair game for a violent end.

As was his daughter then too i assume ?

pearcider

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm not sure many are arguing against that. What makes this different is the indiscriminate nature of the chemical attack. British civilians were victims.

That's unfortunate. The Pentagon or MI6 would refer to that as collateral damage.

listermint

pearcider wrote: »

That's unfortunate. The Pentagon or MI6 would refer to that as collateral damage.

Cracking them versus us work your trying to create.

And the same time pretending to look as if you are being impartial, Absolute quality .

pearcider

listermint wrote: »

As was his daughter then too i assume ?

She no doubt benefited from his dirty money. If he actually cared about his family, he wouldn't be involved in such dodgy dealings. He'd choose to be a school teacher or a cab driver. It's quite clear he was still involved in the Great Game. My sympathy is limited.

pearcider

listermint wrote: »

Cracking them versus us work your trying to create.

And the same time pretending to look as if you are being impartial, Absolute quality .

The truth hurts. I'd rather our betters did not play these political power games but the fact that they do is really not my problem. To suggest that the west has the moral high ground here despite all the evidence to the contrary is a joke though.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

You know the Ukraine is a sovereign nation , right ?

And if they want to join the EU common market just like Poland did then thats their business.

Its none of Russias business if other countries want to improve their lot and that of their citizens.

Russian government actually despised the fact Euro 2012 was shared between Poland and Ukraine as it was seen as tightening up the links between the perception of being European inside ukraine.

Its really really really funny that the likes of yourself seem to think Russia has some form of excuse to railroad itself into Ukraine because it perceives EU expansion into a sovereign nation as bad for itself.

You are talking out of 2 sides of your mouth and this whole bad versus evil is something you created I only think of countries having the ability to decide their own destiny from within.


What is your affiliation with Putin because youve done nothing but protect obfuscate and deride any points against him.

Do you actually really view yourself as impartial

Can you address this ? or shall you overlook it as Russian expansion is ok against some form of what intercountry expansion?

Let me guess Ukraine was being manipulated by the EU so that we would give them a better future in return for some evil anti russian EU expansion...

listermint

pearcider wrote: »

The truth hurts. I'd rather our betters did not play these political power games but the fact that they do is really not my problem. To suggest that the west has the moral high ground here despite all the evidence to the contrary is a joke though.

You are the only one doing that!!

So please stop.

not one person has done that except you.

No one.

Just you.

mcmoustache

pearcider wrote: »

That's unfortunate. The Pentagon or MI6 would refer to that as collateral damage.

What? Do you honestly think that the UK shouldn't respond when a foreign state injures its citizens on its own soil? I'm guessing that you don't understand much about the role of states in protecting their citizens.

pearcider

listermint wrote: »

You know the Ukraine is a sovereign nation , right ?

And if they want to join the EU common market just like Poland did then thats their business.

Its none of Russias business if other countries want to improve their lot and that of their citizens.

Russian government actually despised the fact Euro 2012 was shared between Poland and Ukraine as it was seen as tightening up the links between the perception of being European inside ukraine.

Its really really really funny that the likes of yourself seem to think Russia has some form of excuse to railroad itself into Ukraine because it perceives EU expansion into a sovereign nation as bad for itself.

You are talking out of 2 sides of your mouth and this whole bad versus evil is something you created I only think of countries having the ability to decide their own destiny from within.


What is your affiliation with Putin because youve done nothing but protect obfuscate and deride any points against him.

Do you actually really view yourself as impartial

Where did I mention Ukraine? I'm talking about the other three provocations instigated by the US at the turn of the century when Putin took power. Didn't mention Ukraine.

pearcider

mcmoustache wrote: »

What? Do you honestly think that the UK shouldn't respond when a foreign state injures its citizens on its own soil? I'm guessing that you don't understand much about the role of states in protecting their citizens.

Has the U.K. proof it was a foreign state? Or may whitehall be manipulating this situation for its own ends? The U.K. can do whatever it likes as long as they leave the EU out of it. I'd prefer they didn't start yet another world war with their unparalleled arrogance.