Cultural or what is it.

I know this has come up before anyway anyone got a straight up answer why some people have their children partake in communion and confirmation despite never attending church themselves. Was in a church beside a couple who fidgeted sighed and sat down the whole time with there arms folded while what I presume was their daughter took part. They couldn't have looked less happy or interested in being there if they tried.

Why do they need the legitimacy of the church to throw a party why not just buy her the white dress and have a party and call it something else.

_Brian

Just because you don’t go to church doesn’t mean your not catholic.

People do lots of things and communion/conformation is hardly the strangest thing.

May as well ask why people continually open new threads basically being nosey about what other people are doing with their lives.

Do your own thing and let others do likewise.

Stab*City

mariaalice wrote: »

I know this has come up before anyway anyone got a straight up answer why some people have their children partake in communion and confirmation despite never attending church themselves. Was in a church beside a couple who fidgeted sighed and sat down the whole time with there arms folded while what I presume was their daughter took part. They couldn't have looked less happy or interested in being there if they tried.

Why do they need the legitimacy of the church to throw a party why not just buy her the white dress and have a party and call it something else.

You were probably making them uncomfortable looking and analyzing every little thing they did.

valoren

mariaalice wrote: »

I know this has come up before anyway anyone got a straight up answer why some people have their children partake in communion and confirmation despite never attending church themselves. Was in a church beside a couple who fidgeted sighed and sat down the whole time with there arms folded while what I presume was their daughter took part. They couldn't have looked less happy or interested in being there if they tried.

Why do they need the legitimacy of the church to throw a party why not just buy her the white dress and have a party and call it something else.

I am sure they were fussing and fidgeting and sighing when the relatives were handing over a lot of moolah to their kid. First communions and confirmations are all about coining it.

eeguy

Try telling some 8 year old she can't dress up like a princess and get loads of money with the rest of her class.

blue note

A friend of mine is a teacher and a girl in her class didn't show up for her Holy Communion. She said to her on Monday that she was sorry she missed it and the girl said no she didn't. It turns out she was at home getting ready and just missed the church bit, but they got to the hotel / restaurant okay, which was the important thing.

In a way it's kind of like Christmas in that it not about the religious side of it to a lot of people. To a lot of people it is about the dress and the meal and the party.

Sleepy

It's mainly a result of the majority of our education system still being in the clutches of the Catholic Church. Were so many parents not forced to keep up the pretence of Catholicism in order to get their children educated and such sacraments were being organised, prepared for and run in a Sunday School type arrangement rather than by publicly paid teachers during the school day, they'd largely fall by the wayside.

topper75

Why?

They fear the hell.

Satan is real and they know it.

AustinLostin

They probably fidgeted and sighed and folded their arms the whole time because mass is really really boring even if you are religious, and then you have the godly types attending who use the same serpent tongue to take communion and to gossip about the congregation as soon as they have the chance.

pleas advice

its their culture, innit?

o1s1n

Social pressure and the need to conform.

sbsquarepants

mariaalice wrote: »

Why do they need the legitimacy of the church to throw a party why not just buy her the white dress and have a party and call it something else.

There's your mistake.

If you are an unbeliever (like myself) the church is really just the venue, albeit one with a lot of attached baggage, but it offers no more or less "legitimacy" than a hotel. If the whole class planned to have a big party in a random hotel where they dressed up as an alien and promised allegiance to zurg the galactic overlord, they'd probably end up doing just that, just because everyone else was.
I have young kids (pre school) and older kids (post school) The older ones made their communion + confo the younger ones almost certainly will - largely because their mother (also an unbeliever) just wants them too - who knows why, she certainly can't explain it when asked, some ill though out bollox about feeling left out is the best she can come up with (bitches be crazy and all that). I don't think any of them have seen the inside of a church other than on those days except for a funeral or wedding.

I'm just all about the quite life - I just don't care enough about making a stand on the issue to listen to repeated bouts of my missus moaning at me over it! It's far easier to just sit there for an hour, take a few photos and then go about my business.

LCD

Seen a strange one the weekend. We were invited to a christening & as my understanding there is a mass then the actual christening happens after the mass. We were given a time & upon arrival realised it was just the christening part we were at. I wrongfully assumed that the family themselves had attended the mass. No they showed up after the mass was over, suited & booted, got the child christened & then had a meal.
Personally thought this was disrespectful to the church for the family to not even bother with the mass. If you are going to sign your child up for life to a religion at least respect it.

kylith

eeguy wrote: »

Try telling some 8 year old she can't dress up like a princess and get loads of money with the rest of her class.

If they moved preparation for communion and confirmation to outside school time then you wouldn’t have to explain to an 8 year old about it.

Having preparation for it take time away from teaching actual useful subjects is ridiculous.

People are missing my point there are naming ceremonies for babies so how come there are not new ceremonies for those who are not religious but want something to base the dressing up and party around.

This is a great idea it is a 'religious community' for nonbelievers and atheists.

http://nationbuilder.sundayassembly.com/manchester
Sunday Assembly is a network of
secular congregations
that
celebrate life

kneemos

There was a priest in Enniscorthy that attempted to bar non mass attending parents from confirmations a few weeks ago.
Can only assume he had his wings clipped by management. Haven't heard a squeak since.

_Brian

LCD wrote: »

Seen a strange one the weekend. We were invited to a christening & as my understanding there is a mass then the actual christening happens after the mass. We were given a time & upon arrival realised it was just the christening part we were at. I wrongfully assumed that the family themselves had attended the mass. No they showed up after the mass was over, suited & booted, got the child christened & then had a meal.
Personally thought this was disrespectful to the church for the family to not even bother with the mass. If you are going to sign your child up for life to a religion at least respect it.

This is very common and acceptable

splinter65

Sleepy wrote: »

It's mainly a result of the majority of our education system still being in the clutches of the Catholic Church. Were so many parents not forced to keep up the pretence of Catholicism in order to get their children educated and such sacraments were being organised, prepared for and run in a Sunday School type arrangement rather than by publicly paid teachers during the school day, they'd largely fall by the wayside.

Yes of course the RCC frogmarched them down to the church all dressed up like dogs dinners...it’s very unfair to accuse these victims of bullies of hypocrisy ...

LCD

LCD wrote: »

Seen a strange one the weekend. We were invited to a christening & as my understanding there is a mass then the actual christening happens after the mass. We were given a time & upon arrival realised it was just the christening part we were at. I wrongfully assumed that the family themselves had attended the mass. No they showed up after the mass was over, suited & booted, got the child christened & then had a meal.
Personally thought this was disrespectful to the church for the family to not even bother with the mass. If you are going to sign your child up for life to a religion at least respect it.

There is normally no mass associated with a christening, just the christening ceremony itself.

splinter65

mariaalice wrote: »

People are missing my point there are naming ceremonies for babies so how come there are not new ceremonies for those who are not religious but want something to base the dressing up and party around.

This is a great idea it is a 'religious community' for nonbelievers and atheists.

http://nationbuilder.sundayassembly.com/manchester

Ah but you wouldn’t have the lovely stained glass windows in the pictures or the fun water pouring bit, or the candle lighting bit... wouldn’t the pictures on Facebook look a bit odd?

splinter65

LCD wrote: »

Seen a strange one the weekend. We were invited to a christening & as my understanding there is a mass then the actual christening happens after the mass. We were given a time & upon arrival realised it was just the christening part we were at. I wrongfully assumed that the family themselves had attended the mass. No they showed up after the mass was over, suited & booted, got the child christened & then had a meal.
Personally thought this was disrespectful to the church for the family to not even bother with the mass. If you are going to sign your child up for life to a religion at least respect it.

There’s no mass associated with a baptism.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

Ah but you wouldn’t have the lovely stained glass windows in the pictures or the fun water pouring bit, or the candle lighting bit... wouldn’t the pictures on Facebook look a bit odd?

It could be anything people liked why not, candles bells songs anything people wanted.

sbsquarepants

kylith wrote: »

If they moved preparation for communion and confirmation to outside school time then you wouldn’t have to explain to an 8 year old about it.

Having preparation for it take time away from teaching actual useful subjects is ridiculous.

And that in a nutshell is why it's not done outside school time. A lot of people just wouldn't bother - it's purely a numbers game - they know they're going to loose a lot of them along the way so they've got to widen the base as much as possible at the start.

splinter65

o1s1n wrote: »

Social pressure and the need to conform.

Otherwise known as having neither a backbone or a mind of your own, or in a lot of cases, abject hypocrisy .

Del2005

blue note wrote: »

A friend of mine is a teacher and a girl in her class didn't show up for her Holy Communion. She said to her on Monday that she was sorry she missed it and the girl said no she didn't. It turns out she was at home getting ready and just missed the church bit, but they got to the hotel / restaurant okay, which was the important thing.

Going to call urban myth on this one. Unless we both know several different groups of people who know the same teacher, as I've heard it from several different sources.

splinter65

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There's your mistake.

If you are an unbeliever (like myself) the church is really just the venue, albeit one with a lot of attached baggage, but it offers no more or less "legitimacy" than a hotel. If the whole class planned to have a big party in a random hotel where they dressed up as an alien and promised allegiance to zurg the galactic overlord, they'd probably end up doing just that, just because everyone else was.
I have young kids (pre school) and older kids (post school) The older ones made their communion + confo the younger ones almost certainly will - largely because their mother (also an unbeliever) just wants them too - who knows why, she certainly can't explain it when asked, some ill though out bollox about feeling left out is the best she can come up with (bitches be crazy and all that). I don't think any of them have seen the inside of a church other than on those days except for a funeral or wedding.

I'm just all about the quite life - I just don't care enough about making a stand on the issue to listen to repeated bouts of my missus moaning at me over it! It's far easier to just sit there for an hour, take a few photos and then go about my business.

Please see my last post.

mark_jmc

this is something I have done a lot of thinking about recently,
when I look at attitude of the catholic church towards some big issues:
Gay marriage/gay people in general,
Divorce,
Repealing the 8th amendment
Sex abuse cover ups
View on contraception
etc


I really think- why on earth would I want to align myself with such an institution.
On the issue of communions et: My wife and I have not been successful in out efforts to have a child- because of cancer/numerous failed IVF attempts etc. We are now in the process of our final effort- egg donation. When you look at the churches 'teachings' re IVF/egg donation etc why on earth would I want any child of mine to be involved in an institution that believes they shouldn't be born in the first place??!!


sorry - rant over

splinter65

mariaalice wrote: »

It could be anything people liked why not, candles bells songs anything people wanted.

It could of course but you’d have to organize that yourself.
All these things are laid on in the church.
Just show up and it’s all there.

splinter65

mark_jmc wrote: »

this is something I have done a lot of thinking about recently,
when I look at attitude of the catholic church towards some big issues:
Gay marriage/gay people in general,
Divorce,
Repealing the 8th amendment
Sex abuse cover ups
View on contraception
etc


I really think- why on earth would I want to align myself with such an institution.
On the issue of communions et: My wife and I have not been successful in out efforts to have a child- because of cancer/numerous failed IVF attempts etc. We are now in the process of our final effort- egg donation. When you look at the churches 'teachings' re IVF/egg donation etc why on earth would I want any child of mine to be involved in an institution that believes they shouldn't be born in the first place??!!


sorry - rant over

Best wishes to you both in your journey to parenthood. Life is very hard.

kylith

sbsquarepants wrote: »

And that in a nutshell is why it's not done outside school time. A lot of people just wouldn't bother - it's purely a numbers game - they know they're going to loose a lot of them along the way so they've got to widen the base as much as possible at the start.

Exactly. If it wasn’t for the pressure of exclusion on the children communion and confirmation would be reduced to the ~3 kids whose parents actually care enough to put the effort in.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

It could of course but you’d have to organize that yourself.
All these things are laid on in the church.
Just show up and it’s all there.

Well, the naming ceremonies work and people organise them themselves.

ifElseThen

Communions/Confirmations should be done away with in the context of school and organised by the church within parishes.

As an atheist I can't get my head around á la carte Catholics who disagree with their Church's viewpoint on issues like abortion, divorce, euthanasia, women priests etc.

How can you be a member of something whose views are diametrically opposed to your own?

The_Valeyard

sbsquarepants wrote: »

And that in a nutshell is why it's not done outside school time. A lot of people just wouldn't bother - it's purely a numbers game - they know they're going to loose a lot of them along the way so they've got to widen the base as much as possible at the start.

Probably should be outside of school time, but I dont think the numbers would lessen really. As a cultural and religious event it will still gather a lot of support in each local parish as its seen as the thing to do by practicing Catholics and non practicing Catholics.

Macy0161

kneemos wrote: »

There was a priest in Enniscorthy that attempted to bar non mass attending parents from confirmations a few weeks ago.
Can only assume he had his wings clipped by management. Haven't heard a squeak since.

It suits the Church to have cultural catholics, as it boosts their right to stick their oar in on civil matters and make them still seem relevant.

Like someone else mentioned, I don't feel strongly enough to put up the fight with better half, but also many of the rituals, traditions and celebrations pre-date christainity anyway so I just think of it as the church providing the venue.

wakka12

eeguy wrote: »

Try telling some 8 year old she can't dress up like a princess and get loads of money with the rest of her class.

The OP said keep the white dress and party but just skip the religious/mass aspect

seamus

It's the same cultural attachment that drives people to have big church weddings with white dresses, etc.

Primarily fuelled by memories of their own good day and wanting to recreate that for their kids.

I'd be interested to know how much of this is driven by women. I certainly have no particularly good memories of communion or confirmation. We got dressed in a little annoying suit, had people annoyingly cooing over you all day and then went for a meal. Big whoop.

I can't say it's an experience I would feel like anyone is "missing out" on to not have it. But maybe from a woman's perspective it's a different thing; the elaborate costumes were definitely on the girls for both ceremonies.

Macy0161

Macy0161 wrote: »

It suits the Church to have cultural catholics, as it boosts their right to stick their oar in on civil matters and make them still seem relevant.

Like someone else mentioned, I don't feel strongly enough to put up the fight with better half, but also many of the rituals, traditions and celebrations pre-date christainity anyway so I just think of it as the church providing the venue.

That is a complete cop-out, how can a ceremony based on the life and death of Jesus Christ predate Christianity.

Thre must be some reason why people haven't thought up their own ceremonies beyond the humanist naming ceremony.

pilly

It's simple mariaalice, you're just ignoring the posters telling you why. The majority of schools in Ireland are Catholic and at the moment in Catholic schools children spend a huge amount of time preparing for Communion. No parent wants their child to feel the odd one out during this time.

Also, who are we to decide children shouldn't have their communion? If they decide later on that they never want to go to church again then fine it's their decision.

FWIW if a child said to me "I don't want to make my communion", that's fine too but I've yet to meet a child who said that.

Macy0161

mariaalice wrote: »

That is a complete cop-out, how can a ceremony based on the life and death of Jesus Christ predate Christianity.

I was thinking more in general than communion - most of the christian wedding ceremony (lighting of candles, ring etc) are pre-christian symbols, same as many of the rituals around "christian" funerals. Christmas, Easter, Halloween, all have pagan origins and many of the pagan symbols remain. But pretty sure I've read before that various pagans did eat and drink in ceremonies to their gods similar to how communion is now practiced.

Cee-Jay-Cee

I have zero time for the RC church despite being 'raised' as a catholic, I don't go to mass/church except for weddings/funerals however both my children will make their communion & confirmation as they are too young to make their own minds up on such things and if they decide that religion is not for them when they're older then that is fine and they can drop out or do whatever they wish but if they decide that they want to embrace religion and/or RC church then they have the foundations for that already instilled/in place.

And for anyone who challenges the idea that if they're too young to make their own minds up on communion/religion and that they should be allowed to wait decide themselves when they are older...(1) They don't really understand whats going on, its just a part of school as far as they are concerned, it wont effect or shape them in any way and (2) I don't want them to feel left out of something that all their class mates are doing and (3) I have yet to see or hear of communion or confirmation services for adults who didn't do it while they were at school.

One thing I do think should be changed is that Communion and Confirmation ceremonies should be done on week day evening and the children should be in school uniform so as to get rid of the over the top pomp and ceremony displayed by some parents of children.

topper75

Do ceremonies by their nature invoke a higher power though?

I mean if I want to call my son Bob I could sit down next to him on the couch and say "I think I'll call you Bob". And if anyone asks from thenceforth what his name is - I'll say it's Bob.

If you have a ceremony however...

Graces7

_Brian wrote: »

This is very common and acceptable

Like those who just to go weddings for the "afters"

ifElseThen

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

(3) I have yet to see or hear of communion or confirmation services for adults who didn't do it while they were at school.

Adult baptism is definitely available in the RCC, think the communion/confirmation is all combined into the one ceremony as an adult.

Your thinking should be the other way around. Leave it up to them to decide to enter a religion when they are old enough to think critically for themselves. Of course I'm not preaching

This is one aspect of parenting where I don't think parents should have automatic rights to decide for a child, especially when said religion is of no importance to the parent.

sbsquarepants

splinter65 wrote: »

Please see my last post.

splinter65 wrote: »

Otherwise known as having neither a backbone or a mind of your own, or in a lot of cases, abject hypocrisy .

I have both a backbone (complete with slightly dodgy discs) and a mind of my own (somewhat gutter bound, but functional nonetheless).

It's down to each of us to pick our own battles to fight. This just isn't an important enough issue for me to bother with the earache. Simple as that.

What you feel strongly about, has little or no bearing on what I feel strongly about. There is a certain element of hypocrisy I suppose, but the overwhelming ingredient here is apathy. It just doesn't bother me, like it apparently does you. If it did, I'd behave differently.

It's a bit silly to expect others to care equally about your causes, or to behave the way you do in any given circumstance, do you not think?

sbsquarepants

topper75 wrote: »

If you have a ceremony however...

So how is little Robert?:D

splinter65

mariaalice wrote: »

Well, the naming ceremonies work and people organise them themselves.

Too much trouble for some people mariaalice.

LirW

The cool thing is because I'm not Irish and live in the sticks I'm getting away with it just fine. The teacher had a chat with me when school started since my son has no confession, we just made an agreement on how we handle it and it's fine ever since.

When the communion comes, I'll just pack him up for a weekend somewhere in Ireland where he want's to go.

topper75

sbsquarepants wrote: »

So how is little Robert?:D

Alright given he is just hypothetical the poor mite.

Don't think he gives a monkeys for ceremonies or invocations of the 'unknown beyond' though one way or another.

freshpopcorn

I live outside a small town so we have schools located in the town and country schools. The schools in the area love having as many students as possible in order to get more recourses/teachers.
Their is no need to be baptised in order to get into these schools and yet certain parents make a big deal out of their kid needing to being baptised. Whilst it isn't popular they have being a good few kids over the years who didn't get their communion/were baptised/etc.
We often hear the communion should be taken out of schools/etc. This was announced for all the Communion classes in my parish for 2018. So, all the prep would be done in the church outside school with members of the parish. It caused so much hassle. One lot of parents kicked so much hassle it went back to the traditional route of being done with the teacher.

Badly Drunk Boy

topper75 wrote: »

Do ceremonies by their nature invoke a higher power though?

I mean if I want to call my son Bob I could sit down next to him on the couch and say "I think I'll call you Bob". And if anyone asks from thenceforth what his name is - I'll say it's Bob.

If you have a ceremony however...

The invocation is in the priest leading the community in prayer, asking as child to be blessed at the time of the naming. What's so hard to understand about that? If they believe a higher power joins in the party, let them.

It's perfectly fine for you to call Bob 'Bob' (although he seems a bit more of an 'Algernon') but you'll still have to have his name registered. It doesn't have to be a religious ceremony but some people are into that 'fancy stuff'. Why not let them do it? Any excuse for a party, eh?

By the way, I'm an atheist, although one with a degree in Biblical Studies, so it's not as if I'm 'one of them'. I didn't even enjoy my own Christening...