Ireland Team Talk Thread IX: Grand Slam Champions SEE MOD WARNING POST #1122

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Actually, he wasn't "much" better in 2015, in fairness.

We discovered in the SA tour that we didn't need to worry too much if Sexton is out.

errlloyd

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bilston wrote: »

Not that it's relevant really and I know some won't thank me for mentioning it but I believe Paddy Jackson is the 3rd highest points scorer in the Top 14 this season despite playing for the worst team in the league. In fact he has scored more points than Finn Russell according to Eurosport.

Yeah, he is only 11 points behind the goal kicker for Grenoble who have won 2 games. By the same logic Sam Davies, Jack Carty, Simon Hickie and Maximole Banda are the best players in the Pro14.

Deleted User wrote: »

We discovered in the SA tour that we didn't need to worry too much if Sexton is out.

Did we discover that? Or did we discover entirely the opposite? We should have won that tour, particularly the third test. I can't remember the last time such a dominant Ireland team lost a match. 3 times as much possession, twice as much territory, 5 times as many defenders beaten 9 times as many clean breaks.

If JS plays that game we win that tour.

Paul Smeenus

errlloyd wrote: »

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Yeah, he is only 11 points behind the goal kicker for Grenoble who have won 2 games. By the same logic Sam Davies, Jack Carty, Simon Hickie and Maximole Banda are the best players in the Pro14.



Did we discover that? Or did we discover entirely the opposite? We should have won that tour, particularly the third test. I can't remember the last time such a dominant Ireland team lost a match. 3 times as much possession, twice as much territory, 5 times as many defenders beaten 9 times as many clean breaks.

If JS plays that game we win that tour.

What logic? Seemed like a straightforward observation to me.

errlloyd

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

What logic? Seemed like a straightforward observation to me.

Of course, but the observation was not randomly included as a post on it's own without insinuating relevance to the discussion at hand.

Paul Smeenus

errlloyd wrote: »

Of course, but the observation was not randomly included as a post on it's own without insinuating relevance to the discussion at hand.

The insinuation being he's not doing badly in France?

Dubinusa

I can't see Reddan being better than Marmion or Luke. My opinion of him during his last couple of years was he looked labored and slow. Obviously he was very experienced in 15 and had a lot of credit with Joe.
Donncha Ryan healthy starts for me. Absolute beast of a player. His string of injuries really hampered what I think would have been a great career. Of course it's all conjecture and speculation, but he is and was a top notch player.
DK wouldn't be within a mile of the squad now. He just isn't a top level talent. Barring a mass of injuries, he will sit this tournament out. He's a good player, like Ferg, but not what you'd want in a high level world cup match.

stephen_n

I think absence makes the heart grow fond on Madigan. Place kicking apart, Ross Byrne is already a better 10 than Madigan.

Buer

stephen_n wrote: »

I think absence makes the heart grow fond on Madigan. Place kicking apart, Ross Byrne is already a better 10 than Madigan.

Comfortably, for me. But, in the consideration of a limited squad, I think Madigan would make far more sense as a 3rd choice than Byrne.

Excellent goal kicker, plays 3 positions and is a serviceable out half.

AbusesToilets

stephen_n wrote: »

I think absence makes the heart grow fond on Madigan. Place kicking apart, Ross Byrne is already a better 10 than Madigan.

Think that's a pretty dismissive assessment of Madigan. He performed well in some pretty serious matches. Byrne might have better potential as an outhalf but he hasn't performed close to the level that Madigan has.

penybont exile

Buer wrote: »

In 2016, Jackson started games where we beat SA in Cape Town and Australia in Dublin. Carbery and Byrne haven't come close to those performances for Ireland. If we consider Owen Farrell a 12, I'd have Jackson as starting outhalf for any of England, Wales or Scotland right now.

You might ... but fortunately for us you are not selecting our team!

stephen_n

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Think that's a pretty dismissive assessment of Madigan. He performed well in some pretty serious matches. Byrne might have better potential as an outhalf but he hasn't performed close to the level that Madigan has.

So has Byrne, Exeter and Montpelier games last year. Madigan had some very good games and is a very skillful player. As a 10 though he isn’t a better than Byrne already is.

Former Former

Madigan in 2015 was a better OH than Ross Byrne is now. Absolutely.

Madigan was no world beater even then but we're all getting very carried away about Ross Byrne.

The recency effect is in full swing.

Edit: actually it's not recency because no one rated Madigan back then either, but Joe very much did. And me.

errlloyd

Former Former wrote: »

The recency effect is in full swing.

This forum is much more tinted by absence than recency. Madigan in the Spring of 2013 - now there was a player. Won a Pro12 and an Amlin Challenge Cup. Really guided Leinster when Sexton was injured. Another year of Schmidt at Leinster and I think he would have made it.

Former Former

errlloyd wrote: »

This forum is much more tinted by absence than recency. Madigan in the Spring of 2013 - now there was a player. Won a Pro12 and an Amlin Challenge Cup. Really guided Leinster when Sexton was injured. Another year of Schmidt at Leinster and I think he would have made it.

See my edit re: recency. I was thinking more about people saying Beirne would be ahead of D Ryan and Marmion/McGrath ahead of Reddan.

I guess in 2013 Madigan was playing in a great Leinster team under Joe. By the time 2015 rolled around he was playing in a rubbish Leinster team under Matt (and playing mainly at 12).

Again, not making any great claims for Madigan but I'm not seeing much in Byrne (yet).

Buer

Madigan in 2013 still had massive gaps in his game. Schmidt's loyalty to him (with Ireland) was a blind spot, as far as I am concerned. Schmidt isn't immune to them and we've seen it with other players he coached for Leinster too. He was never justifiably a test level outhalf and, even at lower levels, had significant gaps in his game.

His goal kicking was world class and he was a very talented player but that never equated to him being a very good outhalf. I never bought into him at 10.

As a straight up outhalf, I would say Byrne is probably fractionally better than Madigan was in 2015 now but Madigan's goal kicking would make him the winner if we had to have someone in a RWC squad/23. Byrne is much better at bringing others into the game around him with both passing and his boot and playing for position

Former Former wrote: »

Edit: actually it's not recency because no one rated Madigan back then either, but Joe very much did. And me.

Madigan was the darling of Leinster and Irish rugby for a couple of seasons. He enjoyed a similar profile and coverage to what Carbery does now. Loads of people not only rated him but thought he was the future of Irish rugby.

errlloyd

I am inclined to agree that he wasn't a ten. Madigan as the Petite General 9 might have worked but we'll never know.

How is he actually doing at Bristol?

sydthebeat

Former Former wrote: »

Edit: actually it's not recency because no one rated Madigan back then either, but Joe very much did. And me.

Obviously didn't rate him as high as you think judging by the decision to bring gopperth in as a replacement for Sexton. Jimmy was no journeyman replacement

Buer

errlloyd wrote: »

I am inclined to agree that he wasn't a ten. Madigan as the Petite General 9 might have worked but we'll never know.

How is he actually doing at Bristol?

Was injured for the last 6 weeks. Only making his come back. From reading Bristol's fan pages, he's gone ok. A section of their fans want Callum Sheedy to keep the 10 jersey now that Madigan is back though.

Given that it's their first season back in the top flight and he has been out for a spell, it's hard to really judge his time there too much.

Squidgy Black

errlloyd wrote: »

I am inclined to agree that he wasn't a ten. Madigan as the Petite General 9 might have worked but we'll never know.

How is he actually doing at Bristol?

Battling with Sheedy for game time, they seem to be splitting it fairly even with Madigan getting the nod a couple times over him. It's hard to say, with Bristol sitting second from the bottom of the table despite all of the money they've pumped in. I'm sure someone who keeps a closer eye on the Premiership might be able to give a bit more insight.

Clegg

Gooperth was no better or worse than Madigan while at Leinster. That's what annoyed me more than anything else tbh. MoC wasn't the right coach for either player.

Jump_In_Jack

Buer wrote: »

Madigan in 2013 still had massive gaps in his game. Schmidt's loyalty to him (with Ireland) was a blind spot, as far as I am concerned. Schmidt isn't immune to them and we've seen it with other players he coached for Leinster too. He was never justifiably a test level outhalf and, even at lower levels, had significant gaps in his game.

His goal kicking was world class and he was a very talented player but that never equated to him being a very good outhalf. I never bought into him at 10.

As a straight up outhalf, I would say Byrne is probably fractionally better than Madigan was in 2015 now but Madigan's goal kicking would make him the winner if we had to have someone in a RWC squad/23. Byrne is much better at bringing others into the game around him with both passing and his boot and playing for position



Madigan was the darling of Leinster and Irish rugby for a couple of seasons. He enjoyed a similar profile and coverage to what Carbery does now. Loads of people not only rated him but thought he was the future of Irish rugby.

The part in bold is what I remember.
Madigan had a tendency to run with the ball himself rather than pass.
That was fine from 12, because he actually was a good runner, but from 10 it was frustrating at times, when the obvious ball was to spread it or chip it in behind the opposition. He seemed to be trying to surprise the opposition by running at them when they least expect it, but more often than not it got him into trouble and wasted an opportunity out the backs.
I would like to have him back in Ireland though, he was definitely exciting to watch, and very confident and a classy operator.

stephen_n

Clegg wrote: »

Gooperth was no better or worse than Madigan while at Leinster. That's what annoyed me more than anything else tbh. MoC wasn't the right coach for either player.

In retrospect both would have probably benefited from Goperth playing 12.

arsebiscuits1

Clegg wrote: »

Gooperth was no better or worse than Madigan while at Leinster. That's what annoyed me more than anything else tbh. MoC wasn't the right coach for either any player.

FYP

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

Madigan in 2015 was a better OH than Ross Byrne is now. Absolutely.

Madigan was no world beater even then but we're all getting very carried away about Ross Byrne.

The recency effect is in full swing.

Edit: actually it's not recency because no one rated Madigan back then either, but Joe very much did. And me.

You can’t and never will be able to say that Joe very much did. He said himself that Madigan was on the bench because of his versatility. Starting one (disastrous) World Cup game will never provide an answer to that question.

Madigan wasn’t the player you and many other thought. Joe brought in Gopperth ahead of him for that reason. Bordeaux brought in Simon Hickie ahead of him for that reason. The IRFU never even approached him when he left Bordeaux according to him. If he was that international standard player they obviously would have reached out.

Whether or not Ross Byrne is better (and I think he is as a pivot and will continue to widen that gap) is not really relevant. They’re not in competition with each other and unless Madigan improves to the point where the IRFU have any interest in him at all then they never will be.

aloooof

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You can’t and never will be able to say that Joe very much did. He said himself that Madigan was on the bench because of his versatility. Starting one (disastrous) World Cup game will never provide an answer to that question.

Just on this, if I remember correctly, the general consensus going into the tournament was that, with regards back-up to Sexton, Madigan was the 22 owing to his versatility but if Sexton got injured mid-week, Jackson would start? Could be wrong, but that's my memory of it.

Obviously, Madigan came on early against France, played quite well and retained the 10 jersey for the QF, but prior to that, the order may have been different.

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You can’t and never will be able to say that Joe very much did. He said himself that Madigan was on the bench because of his versatility. Starting one (disastrous) World Cup game will never provide an answer to that question.

Just looking back at his record, I think Schmidt made a fatal error by not playing Madigan more in the 1-2 years leading into the RWC. He was his preferred bench option but the RWC QF was the first game he started for Ireland against a tier one nation ever. I think that certainly falls into the category of poor planning.

Fortunately, Schmidt seemed hell bent on learning from that RWC and Carbery started against Australia this summer at least although he could certainly do with more game time in a first choice team.

bilston

aloooof wrote: »

Just on this, if I remember correctly, the general consensus going into the tournament was that, with regards back-up to Sexton, Madigan was the 22 owing to his versatility but if Sexton got injured mid-week, Jackson would start? Could be wrong, but that's my memory of it.

Obviously, Madigan came on early against France, played quite well and retained the 10 jersey for the QF, but prior to that, the order may have been different.

That was the view but the evidence suggested Joe preferred Madigan (at the WC anyway).

Clegg

Madigan's biggest issue, I think, was his telegraphed passing. He had a lovely flat bullet pass that could stretch a defence. But there was a wind up motion first and that could be read. And since he used it so often defences fanned out to cover it.

Sexton, in comparison, wastes very little motion. You don't know if he's going for a long pass or a short pop to a forward. You don't even know who he'll pass to as he varies it so often.

Buer

aloooof wrote: »

Just on this, if I remember correctly, the general consensus going into the tournament was that, with regards back-up to Sexton, Madigan was the 22 owing to his versatility but if Sexton got injured mid-week, Jackson would start? Could be wrong, but that's my memory of it.

Obviously, Madigan came on early against France, played quite well and retained the 10 jersey for the QF, but prior to that, the order may have been different.

I think it stems from a game where Sexton was doubtful and Schmidt said that Jackson would come straight into the team if he didn't make it (despite Madigan being named on the bench).

But, by the time the RWC came around, Jackson's form was not good. I don't know if the France match solidified Madigan's spot but I think he was already in pole position to start before it due to Jackson's showings.

Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You can’t and never will be able to say that Joe very much did. He said himself that Madigan was on the bench because of his versatility. Starting one (disastrous) World Cup game will never provide an answer to that question.

Madigan wasn’t the player you and many other thought. Joe brought in Gopperth ahead of him for that reason. Bordeaux brought in Simon Hickie ahead of him for that reason. The IRFU never even approached him when he left Bordeaux according to him. If he was that international standard player they obviously would have reached out.

Whether or not Ross Byrne is better (and I think he is as a pivot and will continue to widen that gap) is not really relevant. They’re not in competition with each other and unless Madigan improves to the point where the IRFU have any interest in him at all then they never will be.

Well, the discussion was about whether the 2015 squad or (likely) 2019 squad is stronger, so I think it is kind of relevant.

As I've said above, I don't think Madigan is/was a test level outhalf. I don't think I've ever said that he is/was. Where I disagree with the majority of people here is that Jackson is/was (in 2015 anyway) or that Ross Byrne is any better.

And come on, what Joe said once is no basis for anything, when everything he did afterwards points in the opposite direction. He says lots of things in press conferences that are patently untrue. Madigan was the second-choice.