Tonights Boxing 3/3/18 (Wilder-Ortiz, Brook, Kovalev, Taylor etc)

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

And this is what I see. Wilder has height and reach and wow power. Those 3 combined are very bad for Fury. He is tall enough and rangy enough to not have to have too much trouble to connect on Fury, who has been used to fighting far shorter men.

No freaking way Fury avoids getting hit clean for 36 minutes.....no way.....and when he does he'll be taken out on a stretcher...

Wilder doesn't have height or reach over Fury...

Wilder looked lost at times against the southpaw Ortiz. Looked very hesitant. I can't imagine how he'll deal with Fury switching stances. I'd definitely favour a fully fit Fury to last 12 and beat Wilder. Can Wilder knock him out if he lands clean? Obviousy but there's no real analysis in that. Wilder lands clean on anyone and he can knock them out. Easier said then done against a fully fit and motivated Fury though.

Actually think Fury prob knocks him out.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Wilder doesn't have height or reach over Fury...

.

I never claimed this.

But he does have a lot of height and reach and power......that was my point. Game changing one shot power, and the height and reach and spite to throw it and likely land with it.

No way he doesn't land.....Look at some of the clowns that did land and did trouble Fury........His only hope of not getting hit clean is to stink the joint out and lose wide on points because he doesn't throw punches because of the fear of getting knocked out.

Fury hasn't a fooking prayer. I'm telling you.....I'll have to sticky this post, in the hope that Fury even gets close to his prime level for the fight to even happen. I'd be shocked if Fury had the balls to even take the fight.

Blanco100

walshb wrote: »

I never claimed this.

But he does have a lot of height and reach and power......that was my point. Game changing one shot power, and the height and reach and spite to throw it and likely land with it.

No way he doesn't land.....Look at some of the clowns that did land and did trouble Fury........His only hope of not getting hit clean is to stink the joint out and lose wide on points because he doesn't throw punches because of the fear of getting knocked out.

Fury hasn't a fooking prayer. I'm telling you.....I'll have to sticky this post, in the hope that Fury even gets close to his prime level for the fight to even happen. I'd be shocked if Fury had the balls to even take the fight.

Are you deliberately taking on the role of contrarion again Walshb?

You have developed a soft spot for Wilder over the course of the weekend.

For what it's worth I don't think Wilder can take any great praise in passing a so called gut check against a supposedly near 50 year old dude in Ortiz. He looked absolutely petrified of being hit, something Fury is afraid of himself.

In a fight between both I'd fancy fury to be better at not getting hit.

Even Joshua would be heavily fancied to KO wilder. Both guys survived Wlad who even at 40 years old posed a way bigger threat than Wilder did.

He won't get away with winding up with his windmill of a right hand. And despite his protests the other night the guy cannot fight on inside. He gives away rounds looking for a KO and as you step up in quality fighters like this get found out.

Fury by comfortable points decision. It's not even close.

Wilder v Joshua is more interesting and far more exciting. But I'd still heavily favour Joshua on basis of being more polished fighter. But Wilder does have punchers chance, and there's every chance AJ could gas (wilder is the better athlete)

Wilder even acknowledged himself that Fury is a tougher fight but that AJ is the money fight

normanoffside

Just on the scoring.
All of the judges gave Wilder the 2nd.
One of them gave him the 3rd as well while the other two gave him the 4th so all of them had it even after 4.
The commentators all had Ortiz 4 up after 4. This pretty much is the reason why Wilder was up on the scorecard at the end as The other rounds were scored pretty much as per Skysports.
All 3 judges gave Ortiz a 10-8 in rd 7.

It’d be worth watching the first 4 rounds again. I remember not much happening. In the end it was academic anyway.

normanoffside

It hasn’t been mentioned much.
How did everyone see the Kovalev and Bivol fights?

Kovalev was his usual dominating self against a weak opponent although his power didn’t seem as effective as usual.
Bivol was very impressive against a strong opponent in Barrera.

Kovalev vs Bivol would be a very interesting fight. I think I’d be siding slightly with Bivol.

walshb

Blanco100 wrote: »

Are you deliberately taking on the role of contrarion again Walshb

Hardly contrarian in picking a 6 feet 7 inch proven power puncher to score a KO over a man dropped and hurt several times by far lesser physical men...and a man inactive for three years who’s been abusing his body..

I’d be hugely surprised if I was one of only a very few to think that Wilder gets the KO...

Unless you’d prefer I lie and say that I think Fury beats him? Just to what, not be contrarian?

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

I never claimed this.

But he does have a lot of height and reach and power......that was my point. Game changing one shot power, and the height and reach and spite to throw it and likely land with it.

No way he doesn't land.....Look at some of the clowns that did land and did trouble Fury........His only hope of not getting hit clean is to stink the joint out and lose wide on points because he doesn't throw punches because of the fear of getting knocked out.

Fury hasn't a fooking prayer. I'm telling you.....I'll have to sticky this post, in the hope that Fury even gets close to his prime level for the fight to even happen. I'd be shocked if Fury had the balls to even take the fight.

Bit outrageous saying Fury hasn't a prayer when he's literally streets ahead of Wilder technically in my opinion but hopefully we'll see.

You also said Saunders would be fine against Lemieux till he got punched in the face but he never got touched. I'll take skills over power every day of the week.

See the first 4 rounds of Wilder-Ortiz? Wilder completely afraid to commit, waiting for Ortiz to make a mistake and losing rounds in the process. The fight would be like that for 12 rounds only Wilder would eventually open up late on, get countered and probably knocked out by Fury.

Morrison J

normanoffside wrote: »

It hasn’t been mentioned much.
How did everyone see the Kovalev and Bivol fights?

Kovalev was his usual dominating self against a weak opponent although his power didn’t seem as effective as usual.
Bivol was very impressive against a strong opponent in Barrera.

Kovalev vs Bivol would be a very interesting fight. I think I’d be siding slightly with Bivol.

Bivol is legit. Maybe the best fighter in the division. I think he'd stop Kovalev.

megadodge

Morrison J wrote: »

Bivol is legit. Maybe the best fighter in the division. I think he'd stop Kovalev.

Funny, but watching the other night my overriding impression was 'he's not ready for Kovalev yet'.

He certainly is an entertaining fighter to watch, with beautiful balance and perfect compact punching, but.... the fact that he's always right there in the pocket means he's gonna get hit. He has an aggressive mindset that wants to hit back no matter what's coming his way, when there's times he should be just slipping and blocking and even occasionally moving away. I think Kovalev's superb straight punching and most especially his brilliant and under-appreciated jab would cause big problems for Bivol. If he had another 3-4 fights against good opposition like Barrera and better I'd pick him then, but just not yet.

No matter when they fight it would be very entertaining.

Morrison J

megadodge wrote: »

Funny, but watching the other night my overriding impression was 'he's not ready for Kovalev yet'.

He certainly is an entertaining fighter to watch, with beautiful balance and perfect compact punching, but.... the fact that he's always right there in the pocket means he's gonna get hit. He has an aggressive mindset that wants to hit back no matter what's coming his way, when there's times he should be just slipping and blocking and even occasionally moving away. I think Kovalev's superb straight punching and most especially his brilliant and under-appreciated jab would cause big problems for Bivol. If he had another 3-4 fights against good opposition like Barrera and better I'd pick him then, but just not yet.

No matter when they fight it would be very entertaining.

I just don't see Kovalev as the killer he once was. The fear factor is gone and I'd actually label him as fragile. Bivol head hunted a lot against Barrera which would be a worry but I still think he'd get to Kovalev who doesn't have the gas tank to stay with a pressure fighter like him for 12. Obviously Kovalev has the power to hurt him at any point so I'm saying with with no real confidence but I'm favouring Bivol for sure.

I thought Kovalev looked very sloppy at the weekend. He doesn't have a trainer and he listens to nobody anyway. Apparently only sparring bang average fighters over in Russia to train. I think he's nearing the time to go to be honest and he can be food to someone coming through like Bivol. We'll see.

megadodge

Morrison J wrote: »

I just don't see Kovalev as the killer he once was. The fear factor is gone and I'd actually label him as fragile. Bivol head hunted a lot against Barrera which would be a worry but I still think he'd get to Kovalev who doesn't have the gas tank to stay with a pressure fighter like him for 12. Obviously Kovalev has the power to hurt him at any point so I'm saying with with no real confidence but I'm favouring Bivol for sure.

I thought Kovalev looked very sloppy at the weekend. He doesn't have a trainer and he listens to nobody anyway. Apparently only sparring bang average fighters over in Russia to train. I think he's nearing the time to go to be honest and he can be food to someone coming through like Bivol. We'll see.

I think rumours of Kovalev's demise are exaggerated to put it mildly.

I thought Ward nicked the first fight, but it was very close and lots thought Kovalev won. I had Kovalev ahead at the time of the disgraceful stoppage in the second fight. Despite not exactly being a Kovalev admirer, I cannot believe the lack of sympathy he got for that example of typically biased American officiating.

And all of a sudden the narrative is he's a "bully" and "fragile" and "past it". Ward should at the very least have had points deducted and Kovalev been given time to recover. Maybe Ward would have taken over, but Ward is a great fighter and he had big, big problems coping with Kovalev.

I thought Kovalev was fine the last night. He dominated a tough, willing opponent and was never remotely troubled. He's still dangerous.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Bit outrageous saying Fury hasn't a prayer when he's literally streets ahead of Wilder technically in my opinion but hopefully we'll see. .

Only outrageous if Fury manages to avoid getting decimated.....

He will get decimated....

Morrison J

megadodge wrote: »

I think rumours of Kovalev's demise are exaggerated to put it mildly.

I thought Ward nicked the first fight, but it was very close and lots thought Kovalev won. I had Kovalev ahead at the time of the disgraceful stoppage in the second fight. Despite not exactly being a Kovalev admirer, I cannot believe the lack of sympathy he got for that example of typically biased American officiating.

And all of a sudden the narrative is he's a "bully" and "fragile" and "past it". Ward should at the very least have had points deducted and Kovalev been given time to recover. Maybe Ward would have taken over, but Ward is a great fighter and he had big, big problems coping with Kovalev.

I thought Kovalev was fine the last night. He dominated a tough, willing opponent and was never remotely troubled. He's still dangerous.

Thought he performed very well in the first fight but faded badly. Thought his performance was weird in the second fight. Don't think he liked the pace from the start. Kept complaining about phantom lowblows throughout the fight. Then when the genuine lowblows were actually thrown the ref wasn't convinced. I have some sympathy for him but not much to be honest. He was exposed in that fight to not be the hardman killer that was advertised.

I'd agree he was fine at the weekend but he hardly made a statement did he. Was like a glorified sparring session. He probably needs to be in with a name to be motivated. I just have a feeling we've seen the best of him. The aura he had around the time of the Pascal fights is gone anyway. He's shown he can be made uncomfortable and he's shown he can be hurt. That can't be disputed surely.

He's always going to be a tremendous boxer fundamentally but I think having concerns over his toughness is fair from what we've seen. He doesn't like it to the body, he doesn't like high pace, he doesn't like being roughed up in any form really.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Only outrageous if Fury manages to avoid getting decimated.....

He will get decimated....

We've no evidence to back up his potential to get decimated though. I've never seen so much hyperbole about two innocuous career knockdowns.

FTA69

Errah Walsh you're always giving out. Tyson is big, mobile, fast hands and technically better than Wikder by a country a mile.

I think Fury in shape and on form beats Wilder and Joshua to be honest.

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

Fury hasn't a fooking prayer. I'm telling you.....I'll have to sticky this post, in the hope that Fury even gets close to his prime level for the fight to even happen. I'd be shocked if Fury had the balls to even take the fight.

Please do. Your love of big punchers has you blind to the many shortcomings Wilder has. Shortcomings, Fury, will punish.

If they do face each other, you will see that Wilder will be bewildered trying to figure out Fury as he switches stances, and as a consequence Wilder will be hitting fresh air all night and getting countered heavily. Fury wins comprehensively on points.

You'll never be able to admit that Fury is a classy boxer. A classy boxer will nine times out of 10 beat a crude puncher, which Wilder is.

walshb

nacho libre wrote: »

Please do. Your love of big punchers has you blind to the many shortcomings Wilder has. Shortcomings, Fury, will punish.

If they do face each other, you will see that Wilder will be bewildered trying to figure out Fury as he switches stances, and as a consequence Wilder will be hitting fresh air all night and getting countered heavily. Fury wins comprehensively on points.

You'll never be able to admit that Fury is a classy boxer. A classy boxer will nine times out of 10 beat a crude puncher, which Wilder is.

That’s just it. I never said Wilder was a great boxer...

Plus, nothing to do with love of big punchers..

Wilder punches big. Fury will get hit clean and knocked out.

He will not be around to expose Wilder’s shortcomings. That’s the problem for Fury...

Fury is quite a neat boxer for a big man, but jeez he gets terribly overrated..

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

We've no evidence to back up his potential to get decimated though. I've never seen so much hyperbole about two innocuous career knockdowns.

He was knocked down and hurt several times during his career by far less dangerous hitters. That is some sort of evidence. To discount this as nothing, when matching him with a massive hitter like Wilder, who has height and reach to actually get to Tyson's chin cleanly, is a bit naive.

Fury could surprise me and take a clean shot, or shots and win via points. I just think it's highly unlikely. I believe him to be a KO waiting to happen.

Tyson with a grade A chin outboxes Wilder. I am with this........

Kind of separate point:

Not with the narrative being spouted about dancing rings around him. Wilder is crude, awkward and far from polished, but it's that crudeness and awkwardness that makes him a very difficult puzzle to solve. And with his height and range it makes it more difficult. And the power he has at any moment will always see Fury being careful, cautious and not all that eager to open up and commit. So, taking all this obvious stuff into account I don't see how any half knowledgeable fight fan could see an easy points win...And I don't mean just scores on the cards. I am talking about the actual ring action, the fight.

This talk of an easy win for Fury is utter nonsense....

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

Errah Walsh you're always giving out. Tyson is big, mobile, fast hands and technically better than Wikder by a country a mile.

I think Fury in shape and on form beats Wilder and Joshua to be honest.

Giving out?

Ok, I'll stop......

Fury beats both AJ and Wilder.......

I think their fighting each other is a little unlikely. May get one fight from the combination, but 3 fights.....?

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

He was knocked down and hurt several times during his career by far less dangerous hitters. That is some sort of evidence. To discount this as nothing, when matching him with a massive hitter like Wilder, who has height and reach to actually get to Tyson's chin cleanly, is a bit naive.

Fury could surprise me and take a clean shot, or shots and win via points. I just think it's highly unlikely. I believe him to be a KO waiting to happen.

Tyson with a grade A chin outboxes Wilder. I am with this........

Kind of separate point:

Not with the narrative being spouted about dancing rings around him. Wilder is crude, awkward and far from polished, but it's that crudeness and awkwardness that makes him a very difficult puzzle to solve. And with his height and range it makes it more difficult. And the power he has at any moment will always see Fury being careful, cautious and not all that eager to open up and commit. So, taking all this obvious stuff into account I don't see how any half knowledgeable fight fan could see an easy points win...And I don't mean just scores on the cards. I am talking about the actual ring action, the fight.

This talk of an easy win for Fury is utter nonsense....

I'm not even entertaining the amount of weight to your argument you put behind an innocuous knockdown by Steve Cunningham. Any heavy gets put down by a perfect shot they don't see coming. Fury switched off and was made pay, it happens. He got up and was fine.

Fury has never been on the verge of getting stopped in his career. He's shown no genuine signs of being chinny. That's the important fact. Is it granite? Probably not but I don't think any of the elite heavies have granite chins, Wilder's is by far the easiest to find though which is a point you might be overlooking.

I've never said its an easy fight for Fury. If he gets caught (and if he switches off for a second he might) he could be in bother. I think he'll win clear though. You are the one who has categorically stated he won't avoid going home in a stretcher. Now that's nonsense..

There's a lot more to boxing than chins and power.

walshb

Steve Cunningham is only one example..

Yes, there is a lot more to boxing than chins and power, but without a chin you may not get to show it...

Against Wilder, Fury won’t show it, because he gets knocked out..

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Steve Cunningham is only one example..

Yes, there is a lot more to boxing than chins and power, but without a chin you may not get to show it...

Against Wilder, Fury won’t show it, because he gets knocked out..

He's only been down twice and they were basically carbon copy overhand rights..

You can also have all the power in the world but if your opponent is too skilled you won't get to show it. Works both ways.

I just don't know how you can say it with such confidence. You're speaking about a lot of relative unknowns with certainty. Wilder can knock anyone out but he's gone the distance with Stiverne and gone into the latter rounds with Ortiz, Szpilka, Duhaupas and Molina. To rule out any chance of Fury going the distance is a bit outrageous and of course you think 6'9 Fury is completely feather fisted so the chances of him KO'ing a Wilder with his chin in the air is out of the question too. Your dislike of Fury definitely clouding your judgement somewhat I think.

selectamatic

Fury was definitely a tad wobbly after the pajkic knock down however with pajkic being only 6ft3" and also not very good, fury was able to grab on, clinch and then lean his way to the bell for the end of the 2nd.

It is a much harder survival task should he take a big shot and go down from either AJ or wilder. Both are proper big men and they're both strong enough to stuff desperate clinches.

This imo is fury's biggest hurdle to overcome when facing either of them.

Edit: just another quick point, he's never been down when fatigue could be an issue. Both knock downs were very early in the fights. Now this proves precisely nothing, but it's an interesting point all the same.

Morrison J

selectamatic wrote: »

Fury was definitely a tad wobbly after the pajkic knock down however with pajkic being only 6ft3" and also not very good, fury was able to grab on, clinch and then lean his way to the bell for the end of the 2nd.

It is a much harder survival task should he take a big shot and go down from either AJ or wilder. Both are proper big men and they're both strong enough to stuff desperate clinches.

This imo is fury's biggest hurdle to overcome when facing either of them.

I thought his legs were fully under him to be honest. He got caught again at the bell but the previous thirty seconds or so he was back on the jab looking comfortable. Pajkic was trying his best to rough him up but Fury dealt with it well I thought. He has tremendous recuperative powers. Never looks hurt for prolonged periods. Very like Larry Holmes in that respect.

selectamatic

Morrison J wrote: »

I thought his legs were fully under him to be honest. He got caught again at the bell but the previous thirty seconds or so he was back on the jab looking comfortable. Pajkic was trying his best to rough him up but Fury dealt with it well I thought. He has tremendous recuperative powers. Never looks hurt for prolonged periods. Very like Larry Holmes in that respect.

They were but only after a good clinch and a spell of leaning in the corner. Wasn't he caught again with a decent-ish shot at the start of the 3rd where he looked a bit cumbersome but pajkic faded fast thereafter and fury piled on the pressure to get stoppage.

That said, ay he has solid recouperative powers for sure but there's still been that 10-20 seconds of a window like there is with most where he's not 100%.

This is where his clinch work and size has come up trumps. If both of these are nullified it makes things a tad more interesting.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

He's only been down twice and they were basically carbon copy overhand rights..

You can also have all the power in the world but if your opponent is too skilled you won't get to show it. Works both ways.

Yes, and you need to factor in the few incidents that he was badly wobbled as well. Also, look at the men who did it to him and then ask yourself what happens if a far heavier hitters (who are also bigger men) like Wilder or AJ lands?

This too skilled lark for Fury....this stinks of overrating......He has been hit plenty and is far from a defensive skilled genius.....

AJ and Wilder will find his chin....

Urindanger

I pop into this forum once every now and again and it seems ye lads are always having the same conversation about the Heavyweights. I admire yer persistence but surely to be God you're losing your sanity trying to convince the other fella

walshb

Well, AJ is a warm enough favorite with the bookies vs. Fury....deservedly so

Not sure what odds the bookies would give on Wilder vs. Fury, but it would hardly be a surprise to see Wilder a favorite?

Henno30

Think Fury's performance against Wlad has been hugely overrated. How a counterpuncher looks against another counterpuncher is very different to how they look against an aggressive fighter. No top heavyweight will be as incapable of pulling the trigger as Wlad was that night.

Fury is a good boxer but he's not Ali ffs. Most of his success has been due to much smaller men having to cope with his reach advantage. Whether AJ/Wilder can beat him is hard to tell because they haven't exactly faced murderer's row either. But this characterisation of Fury as a master-boxer doesn't add up for me. A master-boxer might have hit Wlad more than six times.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Well, AJ is a warm enough favorite with the bookies vs. Fury....deservedly so

Not sure what odds the bookies would give on Wilder vs. Fury, but it would hardly be a surprise to see Wilder a favorite?

Joshua is a wider favourite against Wilder than he is Fury so I'd guess the bookies make Fury close favourite against Wilder.