Boiler won’t turn off

adam88

Hi. I’ve recently moved into a new house and there an indoor boiler in the kitchen, it’s zoned and and an eltronic time which was working well. Last nite I turned off the heating and went to bed and woke up and downstairs was like a furnace. No matter what buttons I press on the timer it won’t turn off. Only way of turning it off is by flipping the fuse switch. Any idea what could be wrong, it’s a firebird boiler if that’s any use. Any help would be appreciated. I’m new to the area and don’t have a clue if any good plumbers or electricians

DublinDilbert

Maybe a zone valve stuck in the open position, the internal limit switch will be supplying power to the boiler all the time.

adam88

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Maybe a zone valve stuck in the open position, the internal limit switch will be supplying power to the boiler all the time.

Any easy way to reset it

Might be a frost stat protecting the boiler from freezing

Sam Quentin

If it's a condenser boiler(I think it is!?) then there is a copper pipe going from the boiler through to the outside wall and it's letting the vapour drip/release outside.. Check this hasn't frozen.
Ps: I'm NOT a plumber...

delly

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Maybe a zone valve stuck in the open position, the internal limit switch will be supplying power to the boiler all the time.

I had this exact same issue a while back, causing the same problem.

OP, do you have anything similar to the below? If so, an easy way to check is to pull over the metal bar sticking out of the bottom. If you feel no resistance and the zone is off, then the actual valve is stuck in the open position.



/edit, just to add when I saw bottom I mean the middle left. On my system they are vertical.

adam88

delly wrote: »

I had this exact same issue a while back, causing the same problem.

OP, do you have anything similar to the below? If so, an easy way to check is to pull over the metal bar sticking out of the bottom. If you feel no resistance and the zone is off, then the actual valve is stuck in the open position.

I’ve two of them in the hot press. Both lights are on atm.
The heating system is working now as I turned back in the switch and turned all zones on.

I’ll have to wait till tonight when I’m going to bed to turn off the heating and see if they move

adam88

What really alarmed me was the eltronic timer box showed all the heating zones were off but yet the downstairs heating was on despite the timer box saying it should be off

delly

adam88 wrote: »

I’ve two of them in the hot press. Both lights are on atm.
The heating system is working now as I turned back in the switch and turned all zones on.

I’ll have to wait till tonight when I’m going to bed to turn off the heating and see if they move

Ok, great. Just to correct what I mean by bottom, I mean the bit on the middle left of the pic, on mine they are at the bottom.

If you move it over now, it will have no effect if the zones are on and you will see how easy they move over. They are used to open a zone if you unit fails, so you will feel resistance of the motor if it is off. The theory above is that although you have switched the zone off, it is stuck in the open position and will continually call for heat.

adam88

delly wrote: »

Ok, great. Just to correct what I mean by bottom, I mean the bit on the middle left of the pic, on mine they are at the bottom.

If you move it over now, it will have no effect if the zones are on and you will see how easy they move over. They are used to open a zone if you unit fails, so you will feel resistance of the motor if it is off. The theory above is that although you have switched the zone off, it is stuck in the open position and will continually call for heat.

That’s what’s in my hot press. I’ve now turned the electronic timer box off for all three zones. I’ve tried to move the little metal thing but there’s resistance against them.
Also to note I can still hear the boiler in the kitchen turning on for a few mins as if the heating is switched on

delly

adam88 wrote: »

What really alarmed me was the eltronic timer box showed all the heating zones were off but yet the downstairs heating was on despite the timer box saying it should be off

It sounds exactly like a stuck zone. In my case it happens every year after the summer. With the heating off for so long, the first time i turn it on it doesnt flip back. To fix, I take off the two flat head screws of the motor unit and pull it off. As soon as I do, I hear the motor rolling back as it no longer has the resistance from the stuck valve on the pipe. I then turn the valve around to loosen it and I'm good to go.

delly

adam88 wrote: »

That’s what’s in my hot press. I’ve now turned the electronic timer box off for all three zones. I’ve tried to move the little metal thing but there’s resistance against them.
Also to note I can still hear the boiler in the kitchen turning on for a few mins as if the heating is switched on

Is there a third valve somewhere else, maybe at the boiler?

meercat

Gary 71 says the frost stat which I’d go along with
Don’t go removing or adjusting anything until the outside temp rises and you can then check it out
You could remove the fuse at the spur switch if you really want to turn boiler off

delly

meercat wrote: »

Gary 71 says the frost stat which I’d go along with
Don’t go removing or adjusting anything until the outside temp rises and you can then check it out
You could remove the fuse at the spur switch if you really want to turn boiler off

But would that turn on a zone in doing so?

meercat

delly wrote: »

But would that turn on a zone in doing so?

Depending on the set up,but it should

adam88

delly wrote: »

Is there a third valve somewhere else, maybe at the boiler?

I dont know. I’d have to go digging for to see if there’s one beside the boiler.
As it stands rite now my electronic timer is set to off for all three zones, the two white boxes in the hot press are not lit up (presume they’re off) the upstairs roads are cooling down. The downstairs roads are red hot and I can hear the boiler kicking in every now and again.

Would that make sense with a stuck valve ??

MAJJ

adam88 wrote: »

I dont know. I’d have to go digging for to see if there’s one beside the boiler.
As it stands rite now my electronic timer is set to off for all three zones, the two white boxes in the hot press are not lit up (presume they’re off) the upstairs roads are cooling down. The downstairs roads are red hot and I can hear the boiler kicking in every now and again.

Would that make sense with a stuck valve ??

Do you have wall thermostats for each zone, can you override that way? Gary I believe is a plumber so his guess may be best.

delly

adam88 wrote: »

I dont know. I’d have to go digging for to see if there’s one beside the boiler.
As it stands rite now my electronic timer is set to off for all three zones, the two white boxes in the hot press are not lit up (presume they’re off) the upstairs roads are cooling down. The downstairs roads are red hot and I can hear the boiler kicking in every now and again.

Would that make sense with a stuck valve ??

I think so. The downstairs valve would normally be by the boiler as the pipework doesn't need to go upstairs. It's possible the frost stat is causing it to run, but I don't see why it would turn on the downstairs zone if that was the case, but then again every system has a different logic.

meercat

delly wrote: »

I think so. The downstairs valve would normally be by the boiler as the pipework doesn't need to go upstairs. It's possible the frost stat is causing it to run, but I don't see why it would turn on the downstairs zone if that was the case, but then again every system has a different logic.

I’d normally wire a frost stat to open the downstairs heating zone so the pump would circulate

Cerco

Do frost stat set ups have another stat that cuts off heating when the temp hits a set value to prevent boiler running so as to have rads “red hot”.

Thought I heard this somewhere.

adam88

delly wrote: »

I think so. The downstairs valve would normally be by the boiler as the pipework doesn't need to go upstairs. It's possible the frost stat is causing it to run, but I don't see why it would turn on the downstairs zone if that was the case, but then again every system has a different logic.

Yip thermostat upstairs and downstairs. I think I turned it down before I went to bed last nite, not a hundred percent sure but In anycase I turned it back up this evening to rule out that problem.
Just another bit of into, I turned it off at the fuse board earlier on around 4-5 and turned it back on a bit after, the downstairs rads didn’t warm up and the room felt chilly but the boiler was hot and the appliance next to it was also hot which is normal when I’d have the heating on full blast in the past. Then I turned on all zones in the timer box, all zones got hot, turned them all off again via the electronic timer box and the downstairs zone failed to shut down.

I’ve zero knowledge about plumbing and heating tbh.
Am I rite in thinking that the boiler is always in a state of readiness but that it only fires on when a valve opens and demands heat????

delly

meercat wrote: »

I’d normally wire a frost stat to open the downstairs heating zone so the pump would circulate

Well based on that then, I'd be certain it'll be the stat or the valve as the cause. If the third valve can be found, it'll be the easiest way to rule it in or out.

meercat

Cerco wrote: »

Do frost stat set ups have another stat that cuts off heating when the temp hits a set value to prevent boiler running continously?
Thought I heard this somewhere.

The boiler stat will turn it off

clemop

I had this exact same problem a couple of weeks ago. It turned out to be the actuator on the downstairs zone valve next to the boiler. I fixed it by loosening the actuator on the valve - it was simply on too tight and not turning easily.
Of course this was after I'd bought a replacement actuator...

Cerco

meercat wrote: »

The boiler stat will turn it off

Yes, but I thought the frost stat was only intended to protect the system. What turns the boiler off after it is activated by the frost stat? Does the heating stay on , heating to the setting on the boiler/room stat until it is manually switched off?

adam88

If it’s the valve that’s stuck, what will it set me back to get it fixed??? Am I better off getting a plumber or a boiler technician ??

agusta

adam88 wrote: »

Hi. I’ve recently moved into a new house and there an indoor boiler in the kitchen, it’s zoned and and an eltronic time which was working well. Last nite I turned off the heating and went to bed and woke up and downstairs was like a furnace. No matter what buttons I press on the timer it won’t turn off. Only way of turning it off is by flipping the fuse switch. Any idea what could be wrong, it’s a firebird boiler if that’s any use. Any help would be appreciated. I’m new to the area and don’t have a clue if any good plumbers or electricians

Its very unlikely you have a frost stat on an indoor boiler,so its not a frost stat issue.
Your saying the downstairs was heating like a furnace with the time clock off.this only can be a downstairs zone valve issue.It will be somewhere between the boiler and where the 4 heating pipes go upstairs.

clemop

adam88 wrote: »

If it’s the valve that’s stuck, what will it set me back to get it fixed??? Am I better off getting a plumber or a boiler technician ??

It's unlikely to be the valve itself at fault, although it's possible. It's more likely to be the actuator that turns the valve open and closed. They're mechanical so they do break down. If it's like mine - Sunvic/Danfloss - you can remove them from the valve housing by unscrewing the two large screws on opposite corners. The wiring will remain intact but you can check if the actuator is opening and closing when you turning the heating on and off.
A replacement actuator cost me about €75 but you'd have to be comfortable to wire it into the heating controls.

adam88

clemop wrote: »

It's unlikely to be the valve itself at fault, although it's possible. It's more likely to be the actuator that turns the valve open and closed. They're mechanical so they do break down. If it's like mine - Sunvic/Danfloss - you can remove them from the valve housing by unscrewing the two large screws on opposite corners. The wiring will remain intact but you can check if the actuator is opening and closing when you turning the heating on and off.
A replacement actuator cost me about €75 but you'd have to be comfortable to wire it into the heating controls.

My diy skills don’t stretch that far. I’ll have to call in help lol. Is it a plumber or a boiler technician that I need.

As I’m sitting here it’s just after kicking in again, the 3 zone electronic timer is saying everything is off but the downstairs rads are all on.

If I flip the switch at the fuse box should that sort things out and then things off for the nite.

ALSO **** when I did that last time and turned the power back on the boiler got hot but wasn’t heating the radiators until I turned on the timer. Does that make any difference to what yere thinking

clemop

adam88 wrote: »

My diy skills don’t stretch that far. I’ll have to call in help lol. Is it a plumber or a boiler technician that I need.

As I’m sitting here it’s just after kicking in again, the 3 zone electronic timer is saying everything is off but the downstairs rads are all on.

If I flip the switch at the fuse box should that sort things out and then things off for the nite.

ALSO **** when I did that last time and turned the power back on the boiler got hot but wasn’t heating the radiators until I turned on the timer. Does that make any difference to what yere thinking

Similar story to mine. It was running when I was going to bed and the controls were off. I turned the power off to the boiler and then got up early to turn it back on. Heating was then acting normally. I can only assume the actuator had gradually closed itself overnight and vavle was back to a closed position.

Very simple to check if it's the actuator by removing it from the valve. It's just two screws, no cabling/exposed wiring or plumbing actually involved and it slips back on just as easily.

To be honest I'm not sure what a boiler technician is and it doesn't sound like an issue with the boiler so I'd default to a plumber.

adam88

Am I right I’m saying that the timer box doesn’t turn on the boiler but opens the valve that in turn starts the boiler as a sort of in demand system

clemop

adam88 wrote: »

My diy skills don’t stretch that far. I’ll have to call in help lol. Is it a plumber or a boiler technician that I need.

As I’m sitting here it’s just after kicking in again, the 3 zone electronic timer is saying everything is off but the downstairs rads are all on.

If I flip the switch at the fuse box should that sort things out and then things off for the nite.

ALSO **** when I did that last time and turned the power back on the boiler got hot but wasn’t heating the radiators until I turned on the timer. Does that make any difference to what yere thinking

Sorry, just noticed the last sentence. If the boiler was getting hot but no hot water going to radiators then it could be that the boiler was getting demand for hot water, not heating (I'm assuming you've a hot water only setting).

clemop

adam88 wrote: »

Am I right I’m saying that the timer box doesn’t turn on the boiler but opens the valve that in turn starts the boiler as a sort of in demand system

Yes, typically timer/controller triggers a demand, the demand routes to a thermostat and if the temperature hasn't been reached, the demand then routes to the valve actuator. The demand to the valve actuator opens the valve and as it opens the valve it passes the demand through to the boiler.

With a smart heating system like Hive the demand sis trigger by the thermostat communicating with the Hive controllers which then sends demand directly to the valve actuator.

agusta

The time clock send a live to the room stat.if there is a demand for heat it will then send a live to the motor in the motorised valve.When this motors opens the valve, it sends a live to the boiler and the boiler will start
A double pole 5 amp spur switch turn off all power to the boiler.incl the permanent live that is in the motorised valve

adam88

clemop wrote: »

Sorry, just noticed the last sentence. If the boiler was getting hot but no hot water going to radiators then it could be that the boiler was getting demand for hot water, not heating (I'm assuming you've a hot water only setting).

Yip I’ve a separate zone for hot water. That situation only happened once, when I turned all zones off the radiators all got warm but when I turned them off the downstairs one stayed warned and I could hear the boiler kicking in and out

adam88

Lads thanks for all yere help so far. I’ve the boiler turned off at the fuse box and I’m in work for the day. I’ll see how things are tonight and call for a plumber when I’m off on Wednesday.