Social welfare privatisation

Ajsoprano

With all these jobbridge type schemes popping up it got me thinking.
Are we slowly privatizing the dept of social welfare?

How many people in this dept are employed?

As much as an opposer I am to these schemes would it be kind of poetic if the staff that backed these schemes ended up on them.
I think this dept being privatized would save the tax payer a fortune.
Most of the jobs are simple form filling type jobs a bit of basic training could give yet the people have Union public sector jobs which pay well.
A private company could come in and take staff off the social welfare give them basic training in form filling and get 10000 euro just for employing these people.
So then you would have the person forced to work filling out the form with the person who wants to work.
This newly out of work ex civil servant hold then have to wait 2 years (because of the 10000 grant requirements) to get their old job back but on minimum wage.

Bizarre wouldn’t it be. Surely the water charge freeloaders with their iPhones would be out in the streets protesting this.

DelaneyO

I thought you died, Maggie.

SEPT 23 1989

Evening Leo

dxhound2005

A private company with a turnover of €20 billion a year would be paying its top brass a few million each.

VinLieger

New homework project?

Ajsoprano

dxhound2005 wrote: »

A private company with a turnover of €20 billion a year would be paying its top brass a few million each.

Maybe 1 or 2 people. But almost the rest would have a top level wage of about 13 euro an hour. It’s just form stamping it’s hardly like you need any skills.
Microsoft office that’s about it.

Think of the money it’d save if you had a private company sort it out. The government could pay it depending on performance rather than on how long they are sitting there hating their customers.

They could give courses based on what employers want rather than what Bernie from the front desk who is here the longest would like to do.

The more I think of it the more I like it.

donegaLroad

Most social welfare jobs will be gone due to automation, soooner than we think.

bluefinger

Ah did someone just sign on today?

_Brian

I think what your missing OP is that a private company will come on and have one goal, that is to extract as much money fromtbeunsustem itself and pass this on to its directors.
It will do anything to get this done.

So the result will be under your suggestion is laying off civil servants paying them redundancies, giving the work to a private company which pays their staff a pittance and charges excess to tie government and passes the profits to a few people.

How could this be seen as progress towards anything other than spite against people working in the civil service??

Ajsoprano

Ajsoprano wrote: »

The more I think of it the more I like it.

Privatisation of state services tends to be a nightmare after a few years.

SW, by its nature, is catering to the weaker/less well off members of society, and private business typically isn't very emphatic/sympathetic. Profit is their concern, with cutting corners on everything being standard along with other "initiatives".

I get that people don't like SW. I don't particularly like it either... but it's a necessary evil for a nation like Ireland, and passing it off on to a business type entity would be an invitation for a host of scandals, and abuse.

I'd much prefer that we encourage Government services to become more professional/modern/efficient as time goes by. And TBH the SW service seems to be improving.

Ajsoprano

_Brian wrote: »

I think what your missing OP is that a private company will come on and have one goal, that is to extract as much money fromtbeunsustem itself and pass this on to its directors.
It will do anything to get this done.

So the result will be under your suggestion is laying off civil servants paying them redundancies, giving the work to a private company which pays their staff a pittance and charges excess to tie government and passes the profits to a few people.

How could this be seen as progress towards anything other than spite against people working in the civil service??

But it’d still operate cheaper than the dept. I haven’t dealt with them in nearly a year now but it was baffling dealing with them. I felt like they dispised me. The tax office treats you like a customer when you turn up looking for your money back the dept of social treats you like a criminal.

If we can privatize our water surely we can privatize this department. We could have a number of separate companies all competing for a number of contracts to keep service good and prices down.

A single civil servant could probably look after that on 15 euro an hour.

Roger Hassenforder

Ajsoprano wrote: »

But it’d still operate cheaper than the dept. I haven’t dealt with them in nearly a year now but it was baffling dealing with them. I felt like they dispised me. The tax office treats you like a customer when you turn up looking for your money back the dept of social treats you like a criminal.

If we can privatize our water surely we can privatize this department. We could have a number of separate companies all competing for a number of contracts to keep service good and prices down.

A single civil servant could probably look after that on 15 euro an hour.

most of the admin monkeys you're dealing with at a front counter would be Clerical Officer grade, paid a lot less than the average industrial wage.
When did we privatise water?

Get off your ars3 and get a job, just because th made life difficult for you in the dole office doesnt mean they're all on a sinecure.

Ajsoprano

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

most of the admin monkeys you're dealing with at a front counter would be Clerical Officer grade, paid a lot less than the average industrial wage.
When did we privatise water?

Get off your ars3 and get a job, just because th made life difficult for you in the dole office doesnt mean they're all on a sinecure.

I have a job thanks

Birneybau

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

most of the admin monkeys you're dealing with at a front counter would be Clerical Officer grade, paid a lot less than the average industrial wage.
When did we privatise water?

Get off your ars3 and get a job, just because th made life difficult for you in the dole office doesnt mean they're all on a sinecure.

I have a job thanks

And some of the maddest opinions I've seen on Boards in many a year

Ajsoprano

Birneybau wrote: »

And some of the maddest opinions I've seen on Boards in many a year

It’s a discussion site. I’m finding nobody has an opinion.
Anytime I try start a discussion srameen disrupts the thread then a few lads turn up telling me my discussion is stupid.
Nobody ever says why.
It’s a bizarre place. Facebook is meant to be for the people who don’t reason.

Dev84

Ajsoprano wrote: »

With all these jobbridge type schemes popping up it got me thinking.
Are we slowly privatizing the dept of social welfare?

How many people in this dept are employed?

As much as an opposer I am to these schemes would it be kind of poetic if the staff that backed these schemes ended up on them.
I think this dept being privatized would save the tax payer a fortune.
Most of the jobs are simple form filling type jobs a bit of basic training could give yet the people have Union public sector jobs which pay well.
A private company could come in and take staff off the social welfare give them basic training in form filling and get 10000 euro just for employing these people.
So then you would have the person forced to work filling out the form with the person who wants to work.
This newly out of work ex civil servant hold then have to wait 2 years (because of the 10000 grant requirements) to get their old job back but on minimum wage.

Bizarre wouldn’t it be. Surely the water charge freeloaders with their iPhones would be out in the streets protesting this.

Madness. Forget the medication today?

Ajsoprano

Dev84 wrote: »

Madness. Forget the medication today?

Another one.
Is stameen the only person here and he just has loads of accounts or do you all work together?

Ulysses Gaze

Ajsoprano wrote: »

With all these jobbridge type schemes popping up it got me thinking.
Are we slowly privatizing the dept of social welfare?

How many people in this dept are employed?

As much as an opposer I am to these schemes would it be kind of poetic if the staff that backed these schemes ended up on them.
I think this dept being privatized would save the tax payer a fortune.
Most of the jobs are simple form filling type jobs a bit of basic training could give yet the people have Union public sector jobs which pay well.
A private company could come in and take staff off the social welfare give them basic training in form filling and get 10000 euro just for employing these people.
So then you would have the person forced to work filling out the form with the person who wants to work.
This newly out of work ex civil servant hold then have to wait 2 years (because of the 10000 grant requirements) to get their old job back but on minimum wage.

Bizarre wouldn’t it be. Surely the water charge freeloaders with their iPhones would be out in the streets protesting this.

In another thread you started, you talked of how a One World Government would be a great idea. That would necessitate not just Big Government, but massive Government. A totalitarian state or states in essence.

What you are suggesting here is the beginning of the end of Big Government. If this scheme were successful, why not just hive off all Public sector functions to the private sector?

endacl

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Another one.
Is stameen the only person here and he just has loads of accounts or do you all work together?

IIRC correctly there was a poster here a while back who also used to get their knickers in a twist when the redoubtable Srameen wandered into their nonsense threads and posted from a position combining eminent good sense and reasoned opinion. Can't remember the name....

Any relation?

Cushie Butterfield

nice one op, especially the one about Bernie at front desk, & the sitting there hating their customers

Ajsoprano

endacl wrote: »

IIRC correctly there was a poster here a while back who also used to get their knickers in a twist when the redoubtable Srameen wandered into their nonsense threads and posted from a position combining eminent good sense and reasoned opinion. Can't remember the name....

Any relation?

No but as a new user of this site I’m finding it very unwelcoming.
Is it just for people who are on it years?

end of the road

Ajsoprano wrote: »

With all these jobbridge type schemes popping up it got me thinking.
Are we slowly privatizing the dept of social welfare?

How many people in this dept are employed?

As much as an opposer I am to these schemes would it be kind of poetic if the staff that backed these schemes ended up on them.
I think this dept being privatized would save the tax payer a fortune.
Most of the jobs are simple form filling type jobs a bit of basic training could give yet the people have Union public sector jobs which pay well.
A private company could come in and take staff off the social welfare give them basic training in form filling and get 10000 euro just for employing these people.
So then you would have the person forced to work filling out the form with the person who wants to work.
This newly out of work ex civil servant hold then have to wait 2 years (because of the 10000 grant requirements) to get their old job back but on minimum wage.

Bizarre wouldn’t it be. Surely the water charge freeloaders with their iPhones would be out in the streets protesting this.

privatization of public services never saves the tax payer a fortune, but costs a double fortune. your idea would cost a double fortune even if the staff were all on minimum wage. the private company has to make a healthy profit and will have to extract as much as it can.

Ajsoprano wrote: »

But it’d still operate cheaper than the dept. I haven’t dealt with them in nearly a year now but it was baffling dealing with them. I felt like they dispised me. The tax office treats you like a customer when you turn up looking for your money back the dept of social treats you like a criminal.

If we can privatize our water surely we can privatize this department. We could have a number of separate companies all competing for a number of contracts to keep service good and prices down.

A single civil servant could probably look after that on 15 euro an hour.

wouldn't be financially viable without paying more then the current costs to make bidding attractive for multiple companies or any company. the current system is much cheaper and has a lot less faults and potential for faults.

Dev84

Private companies would only fake it on to make a profit.

Its a critical public service.

They are not compatabile. End of.

Ajsoprano

end of the road wrote: »

privatization of public services never saves the tax payer a fortune, but costs a double fortune. your idea would cost a double fortune even if the staff were all on minimum wage. the private company has to make a healthy profit and will have to extract as much as it can.



wouldn't be financially viable without paying more then the current costs to make bidding attractive for multiple companies or any company. the current system is much cheaper and has a lot less faults and potential for faults.

Thank you. I’ll mull over your response and get back to you.

Ajsoprano

Dev84 wrote: »

Private companies would only fake it on to make a profit.

Its a critical public service.

They are not compatabile. End of.

But the Garda fake it to make it look like it’s fit for purpose and they are public.

Junkyard Tom

Ajsoprano wrote: »

srameen

Izaiah Salmon Egg is our dear leader and you too will learn to love him. :mad:

Are Am Eye

I choose option 4

endacl

Ajsoprano wrote: »

No but as a new user of this site I’m finding it very unwelcoming.
Is it just for people who are on it years?

Not at all. I've been here a while. Not as long as some, but a while. When I post bollocks people call me on it too. Same as real life.

Ajsoprano

endacl wrote: »

Not at all. I've been here a while. Not as long as some, but a while. When I post bollocks people call me on it too. Same as real life.

But surely a discussion involves more than one side giving an opinion and one man shouting bollox followed by all his friends shouting bollox

Birneybau

Are Am Eye wrote: »

I choose option 4

Noooo, not the lizard people

Birneybau

Ajsoprano wrote: »

But surely a discussion involves more than one side giving an opinion and one man shouting bollox followed by all his friends shouting bollox

Here's what's bollox. You're talking (and I think you may be on a wind up) about putting a critical, tax funded service into the hands of private entities and you expect to be taken seriously?

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Your statement that essentially you'd find it "poetic" for Social Welfare employees to end up on the brew themselves undermines what threatened to be an interesting post.

doolox

I thought it was a good idea when applied to various types of enterprises such as transport and Health care but drew the line when British wanted to apply it to prisons.

There is a limit to what can be achieved by a private company on a competitive tender subject to a limited term and all the insecurity that entails. I could foresee prison break outs increasing and also prisoner abuse and violence by staff against prisoners and violence between inadequately supervised prisoners increasing as the private companies would try to cut corners to cut costs and keep their contracts and also to get more profit from the setup.

A similar thing would happen if social welfare provision was privatised. Social Welfare is not simply about providing money to a certain category of people but is also about providing ancillary supports to those who need them, and liaising with various bodies such as health, education and training and job seeking bodies to reach certain goals. A social welfare officer also needs to be able to deal with police and prison officials when dealing with some of their clients and need to be able to tell when they are being lied to or defrauded by members of the general public. On the other hand, compassion and skill are needed to identify and empathise with the genuine cases.

Other areas where public and private organisations interface tend to work out in favour of the private organisation and the public organisation has to repair the damage done and pick up the pieces when the bad things happen.

Private prisons in the US, for example had to call in the Police when things went pear shaped and riots occurred, no compensation was ever paid for their negligence and having to be bailed out by the police for work they should have been able to handle with their own internal staff.

A similar thing could happen with a privatised Social Welfare system if the government were to pay over a giant premium to some corporation to cover the risk of unemployment etc in the general population, the company might pocket an inordinate amount of money and the government may have to pay up again for the same risk.

Dank Janniels

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

most of the admin monkeys you're dealing with at a front counter would be Clerical Officer grade, paid a lot less than the average industrial wage.
When did we privatise water?

Get off your ars3 and get a job, just because th made life difficult for you in the dole office doesnt mean they're all on a sinecure.

*googles sinecure*

Ah a Sinecure!!!!

endacl

Ajsoprano wrote: »

But surely a discussion involves more than one side giving an opinion and one man shouting bollox followed by all his friends shouting bollox

But you chose to post on After Hours. The home of Bollox Shouting. Sure folks here shout bollocks just because they like the way it sounds. I'm actually shouting bollocks as I type this, believe it or not.

Hitman3000

Ajsoprano wrote:

The more I think of it the more I like it.

But you'll never be in a position to implement your fantasy. Anyway shouldn't you be in bed, isn't it a school night?

Ajsoprano

Birneybau wrote: »

Here's what's bollox. You're talking (and I think you may be on a wind up) about putting a critical, tax funded service into the hands of private entities and you expect to be taken seriously?

But it’s already happening. Jobbridge tuas nua skillsteam. It’s privatising looking for work. Will they stop at that or will the people on the front desk be privatized too.
A minister for social protection could oversee a few interns to watch over the private companies.

Ajsoprano

doolox wrote: »

I thought it was a good idea when applied to various types of enterprises such as transport and Health care but drew the line when British wanted to apply it to prisons.

There is a limit to what can be achieved by a private company on a competitive tender subject to a limited term and all the insecurity that entails. I could foresee prison break outs increasing and also prisoner abuse and violence by staff against prisoners and violence between inadequately supervised prisoners increasing as the private companies would try to cut corners to cut costs and keep their contracts and also to get more profit from the setup.

A similar thing would happen if social welfare provision was privatised. Social Welfare is not simply about providing money to a certain category of people but is also about providing ancillary supports to those who need them, and liaising with various bodies such as health, education and training and job seeking bodies to reach certain goals. A social welfare officer also needs to be able to deal with police and prison officials when dealing with some of their clients and need to be able to tell when they are being lied to or defrauded by members of the general public. On the other hand, compassion and skill are needed to identify and empathise with the genuine cases.

Other areas where public and private organisations interface tend to work out in favour of the private organisation and the public organisation has to repair the damage done and pick up the pieces when the bad things happen.

Private prisons in the US, for example had to call in the Police when things went pear shaped and riots occurred, no compensation was ever paid for their negligence and having to be bailed out by the police for work they should have been able to handle with their own internal staff.

A similar thing could happen with a privatised Social Welfare system if the government were to pay over a giant premium to some corporation to cover the risk of unemployment etc in the general population, the company might pocket an inordinate amount of money and the government may have to pay up again for the same risk.

Thanks for your reasoned response. The way I see it there will be a few necessary jobs that are public in the social welfare system. Initially I said 1 job but you are right maybe 1 in each constituency. These staff members would look after checking on the private services making sure the genuine cases are looked after.

We have a bloated service full of job for lifers offering the same courses that were offered in the 70s.

There was a self employed fella on a scheme the other day charging minimum wage minus cleaning products wondering why his business wasn’t working. He was told to take on more staff.

It’s not good enough.

end of the road

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Thanks for your reasoned response. The way I see it there will be a few necessary jobs that are public in the social welfare system. Initially I said 1 job but you are right maybe 1 in each constituency. These staff members would look after checking on the private services making sure the genuine cases are looked after.

not worth the hassle or the huge costs. the current system with it's faults is the better, cheaper option.

Ajsoprano wrote: »

We have a bloated service full of job for lifers offering the same courses that were offered in the 70s.

nope, not anymore. that hasn't been the case for 20 years.

Ajsoprano wrote: »

There was a self employed fella on a scheme the other day charging minimum wage minus cleaning products wondering why his business wasn’t working. He was told to take on more staff.

It’s not good enough.

that is mild compared to some of the nonsense that happens in the uk where there are private companies involved in parts of the wellfare system. i agree it was a ridiculous thing to tell him but that definitely won't be solved by privatization.

Roger Hassenforder

Ajsoprano wrote: »

A minister for social protection could oversee a few interns to watch over the private companies.

You havent really thought this through...

mikemac2

Ajsoprano wrote: »

As much as an opposer I am to these schemes would it be kind of poetic if the staff that backed these schemes ended up on them.
I think this dept being privatized would save the tax payer a fortune.

The spitefulness just drooling from your post OP

The counter staff are clerical officers and and not highly paid.

They don’t back any schemes, they just follow the instructions. You make it sound like Mary at Tullamores welfare office counter makes the decisions and you want her terms and conditions slashed to get your own miserable level.

If you have a problem with a scheme take it up with the minister

VinLieger

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

You havent really thought this through...

Check their thread history, its a trend with this poster, a lot of their ideas are supported by the logic of "it will just work"

Wanderer78

Op has a lot of reading to do about the failures of things such as neoliberalism and it's butt buddy neoclassical theory, but anyway....

Ajsoprano

mikemac2 wrote: »

The spitefulness just drooling from your post OP

The counter staff are clerical officers and and not highly paid.

They don’t back any schemes, they just follow the instructions. You make it sound like Mary at Tullamores welfare office counter makes the decisions and you want her terms and conditions slashed to get your own miserable level.

If you have a problem with a scheme take it up with the minister

I’m the spiteful one? Did you read your post?

I have an idea to sort out a service. Clerical civil service staff get pay rises every year like all the other staff. We have Tus nua a great success. Why not roll it out across the whole department?

billyhead

Ajsoprano wrote: »

I’m the spiteful one? Did you read your post?

I have an idea to sort out a service. Clerical civil service staff get pay rises every year like all the other staff. We have Tus nua a great success. Why not roll it out across the whole department?

Stop while your ahead mate. Your talking rubbish and doing a lot of generalizing.

Wanderer78

Ajsoprano wrote: »

I’m the spiteful one? Did you read your post?

I have an idea to sort out a service. Clerical civil service staff get pay rises every year like all the other staff. We have Tus nua a great success. Why not roll it out across the whole department?

piss take thread!:rolleyes:

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Ajsoprano wrote: »

It’s a discussion site. I’m finding nobody has an opinion.
Anytime I try start a discussion srameen disrupts the thread then a few lads turn up telling me my discussion is stupid.
Nobody ever says why.
It’s a bizarre place. Facebook is meant to be for the people who don’t reason.

OK, two things. Firstly, I never posted a single syllable in this thread and deliberately so, so quit your accusations.
Secondly, just because you don't hear agreement with your whacky ideas doesn't mean it's not a discussion. This is After Hours. Try some of these notions in the Politics forum and see what the response and level of discussion is.
Plenty of posters have an opinion on the matter and they all seem to be likeminded.

Ajsoprano

Izaiah Salmon Egg wrote: »

OK, two things. Firstly, I never posted a single syllable in this thread and deliberately so, so quit your accusations.
Secondly, just because you don't hear agreement with your whacky ideas doesn't mean it's not a discussion. This is After Hours. Try some of these notions in the Politics forum and see what the response and level of discussion is.
Plenty of posters have an opinion on the matter and they all seem to be likeminded.

I’m sorry bud but I shall no longer be discussing things with you.

splinter65

Ajsoprano wrote: »

With all these jobbridge type schemes popping up it got me thinking.
Are we slowly privatizing the dept of social welfare?

How many people in this dept are employed?

As much as an opposer I am to these schemes would it be kind of poetic if the staff that backed these schemes ended up on them.
I think this dept being privatized would save the tax payer a fortune.
Most of the jobs are simple form filling type jobs a bit of basic training could give yet the people have Union public sector jobs which pay well.
A private company could come in and take staff off the social welfare give them basic training in form filling and get 10000 euro just for employing these people.
So then you would have the person forced to work filling out the form with the person who wants to work.
This newly out of work ex civil servant hold then have to wait 2 years (because of the 10000 grant requirements) to get their old job back but on minimum wage.

Bizarre wouldn’t it be. Surely the water charge freeloaders with their iPhones would be out in the streets protesting this.

Staff in SW don’t fill forms, they process the information in the form the customer has completed.
It’s a good bit more complicated then you seem to think.
I can’t imagine the public service unions allowing any of your suggestions either.

splinter65

Ajsoprano wrote: »

But it’s already happening. Jobbridge tuas nua skillsteam. It’s privatising looking for work. Will they stop at that or will the people on the front desk be privatized too.
A minister for social protection could oversee a few interns to watch over the private companies.

Jobbridge doesn’t exist any more . Lots of things are privatized now. The whole world of drivers licences and driver testing and road safety is privatized.
I can’t see your point?

end of the road

Ajsoprano wrote: »

I have an idea to sort out a service.

it's not a viable idea due to the hugely higher cost for lesser return compared to what we currently have.

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Clerical civil service staff get pay rises every year like all the other staff.

they actually don't. their pay is quite low anyway.

Ajsoprano wrote: »

We have Tus nua a great success. Why not roll it out across the whole department?

it's success is actually very debatible, so it wouldn't really be viable to roll it out further. all though it very well may be rolled out in the future regardless, but i'd hope not.