Guards took phone after an accident

Carolal

Hi I was in an accident recently where someone walked out infront of me afterwards the guard's took my phone so they could check if I was on it. They now have it 5 days. Does anyone know how much longer they should have it

biko

From Galway County

The good folks of emergency services should hopefully be able to tell how long the phone is usually held for.
I suppose it needs to be checked by a tech and also the phone company will have to get back to them with caller information.
^^ guesses on my part of course

lovelyhurler

I know that this may sound silly, but, do they not need a warrant first to take the phone?
Just curious.

tedpan

Carolal wrote:

Hi I was in an accident recently where someone walked out infront of me afterwards the guard's took my phone so they could check if I was on it. They now have it 5 days. Does anyone know how much longer they should have it

That's terrible, is everyone ok?

Were you on the phone? If not, I wouldn't be happy.

Del2005

lovelyhurler wrote: »

I know that this may sound silly, but, do they not need a warrant first to take the phone?
Just curious.

Not if they suspect it related to the incident. If your in a crash they'll sometimes even take the vehicle to make sure that it is road worthy, no need for a warrant.

jaxxx

This is why everyone should have a Dash Cam. Granted, it won't prove that you weren't on your phone but at least it'll show someone suddenly just walking out in front of you and how much time you had to react.

On another note though, in this day and age with Bluetooth and everything there's no excuse for anyone to physically be using their phone when driving. The amount of people every single day I see doing it is crazy, especially so called 'professional drivers'. Even if your vehicle doesn't have Bluetooth, hands free kits aren't expensive.

Fann Linn

jaxxx wrote: »

This is why everyone should have a Dash Cam. Granted, it won't prove that you weren't on your phone but at least it'll show someone suddenly just walking out in front of you and how much time you had to react.

Plus a hands free kit.

Carolal

tedpan wrote: »

That's terrible, is everyone ok?

Were you on the phone? If not, I wouldn't be happy.

No I wasn't on the phone they brought it to check if I was

tedpan

Carolal wrote:

No I wasn't on the phone they brought it to check if I was

That's good, hopefully you'll get it back soon then. Was everyone ok?

Carolal

I have been on to the guard's they won't tell me anything.

Carolal

tedpan wrote: »

That's good, hopefully you'll get it back soon then. Was everyone ok?

The guy who walked out in front of me had to be rushed by ambulance to hospital. But thankfully he is gonna make a full recovery. I'm ok physically but mentally I'm in bits

Reati

Carolal wrote: »

No I wasn't on the phone they brought it to check if I was

I thought they could do that from the records held by telecoms.

Reati

Reati wrote: »

I thought they could do that from the records held by telecoms.

That won't show services like WhatsApp, Facebook messenger, etc.

Reati

foreign wrote: »

That won't show services like WhatsApp, Facebook messenger, etc.

Nor will the phone if they didn't post at the time of the accident. Plus, if the phone is locked how do they unlock it. iPhones can't be broken into without auth. I'm really curious of what they plan to do.

OP, did they ask for your pin or details?

Sleeper12

Reati wrote:

I thought they could do that from the records held by telecoms.

Nope. They need to check everything. Was he in the middle of typing a text or email, changing the song checking the weather, read the news. The only way to check any of this is with the phone itself. Phone records will only say if he received/sent a call or text.

Lemonposset

Sorry to hijack a thread but it's made me wonder if using google maps on my phone while driving would be considered 'using' my phone? It's in the passenger seat and just shouting out directions and I'm not looking at it but if a guard was to take my phone would it technically be in use?

Sleeper12

Lemonposset wrote:

Sorry to hijack a thread but it's made me wonder if using google maps on my phone while driving would be considered 'using' my phone? It's in the passenger seat and just shouting out directions and I'm not looking at it but if a guard was to take my phone would it technically be in use?

You are not allowed to touch your phone while driving or sitting at lights. If you can use the sat nav without touching the phone you aren't breaking the law.

Gone Drinking

Lemonposset wrote: »

Sorry to hijack a thread but it's made me wonder if using google maps on my phone while driving would be considered 'using' my phone? It's in the passenger seat and just shouting out directions and I'm not looking at it but if a guard was to take my phone would it technically be in use?

I don't know to what depth they check the phone, but if they're reviewing verbose system logs, it would state that it was voice commands that were being used, rather than typing it in.

tracey turnblad

If they find you were using it and bring a case against you it could be not until the court date that you get it back. Going by what I know about phones and the guards they haven’t a clue ( and I say that with no malice) they aren’t trained in this so it could take quite a while to get it back

irishrgr

Interesting, we'd have a bit of a time articulating seize the phone there and then. We'll subpoena the records for a ticket to show the subject was on the phone. As serious accident would be handled by our investigators and they could get a warrant for the phone itself. However, most agencies don't have the capability of "hacking" phones, the FBI can barely do it with almost unlimited resources. 
So, in Ireland, am I compelled to give you my phone password? What if I say no? The courts here, in a recent decision, ruled if you want to search my phone, get a warrant and no I don't have to give you my password. Given the complexities of digital media, I'd wonder how much capability AGS has for cracking phones.

GarIT

irishrgr wrote: »

I'd wonder how much capability AGS has for cracking phones.

None at all. It's scare tactics unless you don't have a passcode. Even if you gave them your passcode they can't check anything unless you happened to send a message around the time of the crash. If you've a hlaf written message in some app they can't know if that was 5 mins or a year old.

If I was the OP though I'd look into buying a new phone, you won't be getting it back anytime soon if there is any sort of case pending. if I was a laptop or computer you'd be waiting 1-3+ years to get it back.

Reati

GarIT wrote: »

None at all. It's scare tactics unless you don't have a passcode. Even if you gave them your passcode they can't check anything unless you happened to send a message around the time of the crash. If you've a hlaf written message in some app they can't know if that was 5 mins or a year old.

If I was the OP though I'd look into buying a new phone, you won't be getting it back anytime soon if there is any sort of case pending. if I was a laptop or computer you'd be waiting 1-3+ years to get it back.

This is what I was interested in more than the case.

Assumption: Phone is somewhat new, has hardware level device encryption and passcode.

What can AGS do with that phone bar get the phone records. There isn't a chance they have the software to crack a phone like that. As someone noted even the FBI couldn't do it.

Even if they have a passcode and you had something to hide you sent a delete device request and boom everything goes if they turn the phone one (assuming a inet connection).

mikeecho

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You are not allowed to touch your phone while driving or sitting at lights. If you can use the sat nav without touching the phone you aren't breaking the law.

You can touch it, but you can't hold it.

If it's in a cradle, you can still legally touch the screen.
It's legal to send a cover or whatsapp, but illegal to send an sms or email.

The law was so poorly written, only holding the phone is enforced in most circumstances.

pah

irishrgr wrote: »

I'd wonder how much capability AGS has for cracking phones.

GarIT wrote: »

None at all. It's scare tactics unless you don't have a passcode.

Speaking from experience GarIT?


The ability to get into a locked phone is dependant on a number of factors.

Is it encrypted? Unlikely

Is it an iPhone? - No chance

Is it an android? some chance. What model, what OS version. what security patch level?

Is your PIN 4 digits? is it one of the "top20" 4 digit PINS used worldwide?
Is it directly attributable to your DOB?

Is it a pattern lock? again is it one of the top 20 patterns used etc

Does the examination software have a solution to bypass the PIN, dump the physical memory and decode same?

Carolal

Reati wrote: »

Nor will the phone if they didn't post at the time of the accident. Plus, if the phone is locked how do they unlock it. iPhones can't be broken into without auth. I'm really curious of what they plan to do.

OP, did they ask for your pin or details?

Yes they asked for my pin. 2 weeks later still no phone

Reati

Carolal wrote: »

Yes they asked for my pin. 2 weeks later still no phone

Why would you give your PIN to anyone unless you were under warrant.

Reati

Reati wrote: »

Why would you give your PIN to anyone unless you were under warrant.

Maybe they have nothing to hide? Phones are examined by a trained Garda and only done if there is a good enough reason to do so.

Reati

foreign wrote: »

Maybe they have nothing to hide? Phones are examined by a trained Garda and only done if there is a good enough reason to do so.

Christ no. Ask any good lawyer. You never fess up anything without a warranty or legal advice first. You think you have nothing to hide but a trained Garda's job is to find something and they will find the thing you didn't realise you had done.

Reati

Reati wrote: »

Christ no. Ask any good lawyer. You never fess up anything without a warranty or legal advice first. You think you have nothing to hide but a trained Garda's job is to find something and they will find the thing you didn't realise you had done.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/act/26/section/7/enacted/en/html

Reati

foreign wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/act/26/section/7/enacted/en/html

Where does it say you have to give them a PIN? They can take the phone sure, but not demand the PIN. In fact, I have legal documents communicating legal advice from or by a barrister or solicitor on my device etc etc

My point is still valid, one should seek legal advise before handing over any information.

Reati

Reati wrote: »

Where does it say you have to give them a PIN? They can take the phone sure, but not demand the PIN. In fact, I have legal documents communicating legal advice from or by a barrister or solicitor on my device etc etc

My point is still valid, one should seek legal advise before handing over any information.

It doesn't say anything about the pin, just showing the power to seize the device in the first place. As the OP said, they weren't on their phone at the time. They must be happy to know there is nothing incriminating on the phone that they are worried about and are happy to help move the case along quicker than it would without the pin.

pah

If you want to protect your privacy sure no obligation to provide code, but as foreign says many people are happy to cooperate with an investigation with nothing to hide

Reati

pah wrote: »

If you want to protect your privacy sure no obligation to provide code, but as foreign says many people are happy to cooperate with an investigation with nothing to hide

We're just descending into an academic conversation. I'll repeat the point I'm making earlier. You should never hand over an information without legal advice first.

Yes, they can seize the device. Yes they can get a court order for the PIN but any good lawyer will tell you never, ever willingly hand over information without legal advice.

Now, that legal advice might (and probably will) be to give the pin over but you should have the advice first. That's my point. Nothing to do with having nothing to hide but least be honest, everyone has something to hide. Perhaps you were speeding that day or picked up your phone or something else that might be unrelated to the crime but in itself another crime.

pah

Reati wrote: »

You should never hand over an information without legal advice first.

By that logic if the Gardaí call house to house in relation to a serious incident you'd tell them you need to contact your solicitor before talking with them

GarIT

pah wrote: »

By that logic if the Gardaí call house to house in relation to a serious incident you'd tell them you need to contact your solicitor before talking with them

Absolutely. Never talk to the Gardaí unless you're the one looking for help.

patrickm3039

Did you ever get it back?