Difference between A3 and A4?

RowanHarley

I've been looking at A4 and A3 races on strava, and they look very similar, Maybe a 2km/h difference between the 2. So why choose A4 over A3 if there isn't much difference in speed, but less of a limit on what races I can do?

JimmiesRustled

RowanHarley wrote: »

I've been looking at A4 and A3 races on strava, and they look very similar, Maybe a 2km/h difference between the 2. So why choose A4 over A3 if there isn't much difference in speed, but less of a limit on what races I can do?

I don't know of anyone who "chooses" either category. You generally, unless a junior, start as an A4 and work your way up. Also, the difference is speed or the lack thereof means very little. It's where that speed comes in the course is what matters. A4 races are also shorter.

Kaisr Sose

RowanHarley wrote: »

I've been looking at A4 and A3 races on strava, and they look very similar, Maybe a 2km/h difference between the 2. So why choose A4 over A3 if there isn't much difference in speed, but less of a limit on what races I can do?

If you are A4, you ride A4 races. It’s not all about looking at number. 2 is a small number but a difference in speed of 2kmph is not. The average speed will not take into account how much more intense A3 can be when the pace is up. As said by other poster, races are generally longer.

Paul_Mc1988

RowanHarley wrote: »

I've been looking at A4 and A3 races on strava, and they look very similar, Maybe a 2km/h difference between the 2. So why choose A4 over A3 if there isn't much difference in speed, but less of a limit on what races I can do?

Its important to note that wind resistance is exponential in nature Eg: the differences in power for the following speeds at 0% gradient and a rider of 75kg bike weight of 8Kg;
38KPH = 282.62
40KPH = 324.6
42KPH = 370.75

2KPH might not seem like a lot but with regards to power its quite a difference when the speed start to get high. The following is a good calculator for cycling dynamics

https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

RowanHarley

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

Its important to note that wind resistance is exponential in nature Eg: the differences in power for the following speeds at 0% gradient and a rider of 75kg bike weight of 8Kg;
38KPH = 282.62
40KPH = 324.6
42KPH = 370.75

2KPH might not seem like a lot but with regards to power its quite a difference when the speed start to get high. The following is a good calculator for cycling dynamics

https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

Ok, this is handy information. So assuming my ftp was equal to the pace of one of these A3 races, would that mean I'm more suited for A3 or is there more than that?

sullzz

RowanHarley wrote: »

Ok, this is handy information. So assuming my ftp was equal to the pace of one of these A3 races, would that mean I'm more suited for A3 or is there more than that?

Its not all about FTP , do you have the endurance , race craft , experience of racing in a bunch at speed .

boege

If you have not raced then you should go into A4, unless you are a junior. Racing is a craft and you have to learn it. If you are good enough you will be promoted out of A4 and you will have learned some.

Getting promoted out of A4 is not too hard but getting promoted out of A3 is a different challenge altogether. Watched my son chase Dunbars wheels in A3 for three seasons. It took a 15 hours a week training over a winter to get up to A2.

As for the speed differences, my son did an amateur race in France. A 130km stage was finished in an average of 42.5kmph. There was a full Pro (cat 2.2) race behind and Pros averaged 44.5kmph.

RowanHarley

boege wrote: »

If you have not raced then you should go into A4, unless you are a junior. Racing is a craft and you have to learn it. If you are good enough you will be promoted out of A4 and you will have learned some.

Getting promoted out of A4 is not too hard but getting promoted out of A3 is a different challenge altogether. Watched my son chase Dunbars wheels in A3 for three seasons. It took a 15 hours a week training over a winter to get up to A2.

As for the speed differences, my son did an amateur race in France. A 130km stage was finished in an average of 42.5kmph. There was a full Pro (cat 2.2) race behind and Pros averaged 44.5kmph.

What do you mean by this? Yes, I'm a junior. It's just that the thought has been going through my head a lot. At times, I feel well able to be an A3 rider, but at other times I feel like A4 is my place. An idea is go into A3 then if needed, drop down to A4, and stay there for the year (because I won't be allowed upgrade according to CI rules)

sullzz

RowanHarley wrote: »

What do you mean by this? Yes, I'm a junior. It's just that the thought has been going through my head a lot. At times, I feel well able to be an A3 rider, but at other times I feel like A4 is my place. An idea is go into A3 then if needed, drop down to A4, and stay there for the year (because I won't be allowed upgrade according to CI rules)

Well then just start in A4 and if youre good enough youll upgrade quickly .
Plus itll be good for your confidence to get a few placings in some races .

dahat

Is there a club member or someone who coaches that can you can ask for an honest opinion?

A4 is good craic once you race handy, staying too far back is at times treacherous. Learn your craft and race skills there and promotion should come quick if you are good enough. 13pts is the mark now which is not hard to come by if you are strong.

RowanHarley

dahat wrote: »

Is there a club member or someone who coaches that can you can ask for an honest opinion?

A4 is good craic once you race handy, staying too far back is at times treacherous. Learn your craft and race skills there and promotion should come quick if you are good enough. 13pts is the mark now which is not hard to come by if you are strong.

Well there are club members that have raced a couple of years but only 1 has raced A3, 1 has a few points in A4, and the other 2 have none. But what I'm thinking about now, is will I have time to race next year if I'm into 5th year? Because there goes any dreams of going professional one day if I don't.

dahat

RowanHarley wrote: »

Well there are club members that have raced a couple of years but only 1 has raced A3, 1 has a few points in A4, and the other 2 have none. But what I'm thinking about now, is will I have time to race next year if I'm into 5th year? Because there goes any dreams of going professional one day if I don't.

Lofty aims, those decisions only you and your family can make.

RowanHarley

dahat wrote: »

Lofty aims, those decisions only you and your family can make.

Well, I've got another week or 2 to make up my mind, so I want to make sure I make the right decision.

JK.BMC

dahat wrote: »

Is there a club member or someone who coaches that can you can ask for an honest opinion?

A4 is good craic once you race handy, staying too far back is at times treacherous. Learn your craft and race skills there and promotion should come quick if you are good enough. 13pts is the mark now which is not hard to come by if you are strong.

Good advice; except being 'strong' is no guarantee of success. A4 is full of riders with engines worthy of A3 or A2 but a more interesting question is do they know how to use all this power, this 'ftp' and 'strava' data?
The OP has started a heap of threads lately on similar topics and a number of posters have offered encouragement with the proviso that some work with a proper coach seems necessary, perhaps essential at this stage

velo.2010

Are you fearful if you choose A4 instead of A3 that you'll somehow be diminished in the eyes of those around you in your training group?

Jumping straight into A3 and possibly becoming pack fodder early on in the year won't do your confidence any good if your looking to progress. If you managed to get yourself upgraded from A4, it'll give you a boost and a platform to build off even if you stayed there for the rest of the season.

In any case you'll have plenty of folk keeping an eye on your progress.

Good luck!

dahat

JK.BMC wrote: »

Good advice; except being 'strong' is no guarantee of success. A4 is full of riders with engines worthy of A3 or A2 but a more interesting question is do they know how to use all this power, this 'ftp' and 'strava' data?
The OP has started a heap of threads lately on similar topics and a number of posters have offered encouragement with the proviso that some work with a proper coach seems necessary, perhaps essential at this stage

Agreed on the coach advice, at his age and his belief in the ability he has a coach can guide him over the next 2/3 years to give home the best chance. Quite often coaching rates for Juniors are more manageable than rates for lads like myself, €100 plus pm.

JimmiesRustled

If going pro is something you're actually considering I'd imagine you have serious ability in which case you should only really be an A4 for a handful of races. If you're serious about the whole pro thing you should be destroying lads who can only put in ~8 hours* a week due to work and family commitments.

*I'm not trying to take anything away from lads racing A4 here at all. This is typically the average amount of hours I've seen A4s put in a week. A lad considering turning pro should absolutely mop the floor with A4's.

Irish Raven

if you are considering going pro, you should be racing at at least a3 level. Also should be involved in cycling ireland development teams. Im assuming you have a high level of ability and huge potential. You will learn nothing in a4. There is only one tactic and that's ride around in a bunch till a mass sprint at end. With a3 you get to attack, form breaks, chase breaks, bit more team effort, and tactical. also top juniors in the races to compare yourself too...Im not knocking a4 either...just you will need the more tactical and aggressive races!

jntsnk

RowanHarley wrote: »

I've been looking at A4 and A3 races on strava, and they look very similar, Maybe a 2km/h difference between the 2. So why choose A4 over A3 if there isn't much difference in speed, but less of a limit on what races I can do?

A3 chasing juniors all year!

Thud

if you're in 5th year surely you're still eligible for juniors?

sullzz

Thud wrote: »

if you're in 5th year surely you're still eligible for juniors?

I think hes asking about junior A3 or junior A4

mathie

Aren't they making attempts to split the A3 and Junior races this year?

Chips Lovell

The rules are as follows:

Youth riders on reaching Junior grade will be graded as A3. Riders of junior age on joining Cycling Ireland for the first time will be graded A4.

So if this is your first cycling Ireland licence, they'll automatically give you an A4 licence.

If you haven't raced before, then Junior A4 is probably the place to be. if you're still a Junior next year, go on up to A3.

Average speeds from Strava won't tell you lot about how hard/easy any given race was unfortunately. Put simply, riding a race at a steady 40kph is a lot easier than a stop/start attackfest that averages 37kph. It's the hard, short efforts that will break you, not the average speed.

CramCycle

If you have not raced before, go for A4, you will learn a few things but if you are strong, you get the chance to dominate them and get a few wins. That way you will be starting A3 with a bit of experience and a tiny bit of knowledge on what to look out for.

This said if you have not raced before, might I recommend trying out a club league or the track, to get used to that experience of being in a tight bunch.

letape

RowanHarley wrote: »

Well there are club members that have raced a couple of years but only 1 has raced A3, 1 has a few points in A4, and the other 2 have none. But what I'm thinking about now, is will I have time to race next year if I'm into 5th year? Because there goes any dreams of going professional one day if I don't.

How are getting on racing as a junior? Are you finding the pace fairly handy as a second year junior?

RowanHarley

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

If going pro is something you're actually considering I'd imagine you have serious ability in which case you should only really be an A4 for a handful of races. If you're serious about the whole pro thing you should be destroying lads who can only put in ~8 hours* a week due to work and family commitments.

*I'm not trying to take anything away from lads racing A4 here at all. This is typically the average amount of hours I've seen A4s put in a week. A lad considering turning pro should absolutely mop the floor with A4's.

It's not something I'm exactly considering, but it's more of a dream. I'd love to race as a job, than as a hobby.

RowanHarley

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The rules are as follows:



So if this is your first cycling Ireland licence, they'll automatically give you an A4 licence.

If you haven't raced before, then Junior A4 is probably the place to be. if you're still a Junior next year, go on up to A3.

Average speeds from Strava won't tell you lot about how hard/easy any given race was unfortunately. Put simply, riding a race at a steady 40kph is a lot easier than a stop/start attackfest that averages 37kph. It's the hard, short efforts that will break you, not the average speed.

I had an Under-16 license last year, so I was given the choice.

mhiggy09

Im also a first year junior and when choosing your license it gives you the option of A4 or A3. I chose A4 as I have little experience in large bunches, only did a few U16 races in which I got dropped fairly early. Plan is to gain bunch experience and hopefully get upgraded by the end of the season.

In regards to 5th year and having time, I'm currently in 5th year and I'm managing fine, although I'm not doing massive hours training maybe 6 hours a week, more during holidays less during exam weeks. If your in TY now make the most of it. Last year I lazed about a lot and kinda wasted a year which I could have spent doing a lot more.

RowanHarley

mhiggy09 wrote: »

Im also a first year junior and when choosing your license it gives you the option of A4 or A3. I chose A4 as I have little experience in large bunches, only did a few U16 races in which I got dropped fairly early. Plan is to gain bunch experience and hopefully get upgraded by the end of the season.

In regards to 5th year and having time, I'm currently in 5th year and I'm managing fine, although I'm not doing massive hours training maybe 6 hours a week, more during holidays less during exam weeks. If your in TY now make the most of it. Last year I lazed about a lot and kinda wasted a year which I could have spent doing a lot more.

Well that's re-assuring then, knowing I'll be able to get my training in, even then. I might sit about in A4 then, and see how I go. I was offered a chance to get an FTP test but I'm wondering if I'll need it if I don't have a pm...

Chips Lovell

RowanHarley wrote: »

I had an Under-16 license last year, so I was given the choice.

Did you race U16 or did you just have the licence. If you were comfortable with the others in U16, then I'd go on to A3 with them. If you haven't raced before, then maybe opt for A4.

mhiggy09

RowanHarley wrote: »

Well that's re-assuring then, knowing I'll be able to get my training in, even then. I might sit about in A4 then, and see how I go. I was offered a chance to get an FTP test but I'm wondering if I'll need it if I don't have a pm...

Pm? Power meter? I just use heartrate, might invest in a power meter later down the line but now it's just not worth it, still have to upgrade to a better wheelset

RowanHarley

mhiggy09 wrote: »

Pm? Power meter? I just use heartrate, might invest in a power meter later down the line but now it's just not worth it, still have to upgrade to a better wheelset

Same. My wheels are only fulcrum.

boege

RowanHarley wrote: »

What do you mean by this? Yes, I'm a junior. It's just that the thought has been going through my head a lot. At times, I feel well able to be an A3 rider, but at other times I feel like A4 is my place. An idea is go into A3 then if needed, drop down to A4, and stay there for the year (because I won't be allowed upgrade according to CI rules)

Apologies, maybe rules have changed but once you came out of U16 and became a Junior you had to race at A3 level, hence my comment.

If you have not raced and have a choice then most coaches will advise you to start at A4 and learn your craft. Racing is mostly about tactics and it takes time to learn how to get, and hold, position in a race as well as when to follow breaks. FTP is of limited use if you waste all your power chasing down breaks.

I once read one racer sum up racing as all about conserving energy for the right moment.

Irrespective, my advice is jump in, the buzz will have you hooked and A3/A4 wont matter too much.

Lumen

RowanHarley wrote: »

Same. My wheels are only fulcrum.

Your wheels don't matter.

RowanHarley

Lumen wrote: »

Your wheels don't matter.

Well there's a big difference between my wheels and any form of deep section wheels. Deep section wheels are handy for A4 races as many of them are flat.

CramCycle

Once the vehicle is in road worthy condition, the engine is the most important thing. Focus on the engine. only return to the vehicle when you feel the engine is performing at its best.

CramCycle

RowanHarley wrote: »

Well there's a big difference between my wheels and any form of deep section wheels. Deep section wheels are handy for A4 races as many of them are flat.

In an A4 race, if the wheels are the deciding factor of getting into A3, then you are probably not ready for A3. Plenty of people winning races in A4 on Askiums.

Lumen

RowanHarley wrote: »

Well there's a big difference between my wheels and any form of deep section wheels..

There are not.

Lusk_Doyle

Lumen wrote: »

There are not.

You are forgetting about the go faster soumd they make.

dahat

Wheels are a big upgrade but in no way essential in A3/A4 races.

Lusk_Doyle

RowanHarley wrote: »

Well, I've got another week or 2 to make up my mind, so I want to make sure I make the right decision.

Why? Is it on the CAO application form?

Kaisr Sose

RowanHarley wrote: »

Well there's a big difference between my wheels and any form of deep section wheels. Deep section wheels are handy for A4 races as many of them are flat.

You are very young to be looking to have top equipment. The main thing is you go out and ride your bike, get the skills necessary for riding in groups, cross wind etc. There is nothing wrong with basic equipment when starting out. If you are strong on basic equipment you will be strong on better equipment....

magicbastarder

Lumen wrote: »

There are not.

maybe his wheels aren't actually round?

JK.BMC

magicbastarder wrote: »

maybe his wheels aren't actually round?

Is that a metaphor or am I missing something?

RowanHarley

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Why? Is it on the CAO application form?

Nope, have to contact CI before my first race

Irish Raven

RowanHarley wrote:

Nope, have to contact CI before my first race

what race are you planning on starting at??

RowanHarley

Irish Raven wrote: »

what race are you planning on starting at??

Markievicz Cup, then boyne gp and hopefully Rás Maigheo

DKmac

RowanHarley wrote: »

Well there's a big difference between my wheels and any form of deep section wheels. Deep section wheels are handy for A4 races as many of them are flat.

Invest in some decent training, if you really want to spend money get yerself a power meter. Put some structure to your training and you'll see a fairly big jump in fitness within 3 months.

The majority of A4 lads are training without any structure or reason and just giving it a lash at the weekend without ever really getting any better.

CramCycle

DKmac wrote: »

The majority of A4 lads are training without any structure or reason and just giving it a lash at the weekend without ever really getting any better.

Stop telling everyone my training secrets :pac:

carnivorecc

I raced as a Junior for the last two seasons. There is a massive difference between A3 and A4. Juniors capable of winning A1 races are in A3 and only a handful of senior A3s will be in the top ten of a typical Sunday race. If you want to compete in races like the Junior Tour I highly recommend you to race as A3. I don't even use a heart rate monitor and won open races last year

RowanHarley

DKmac wrote: »

Invest in some decent training, if you really want to spend money get yerself a power meter. Put some structure to your training and you'll see a fairly big jump in fitness within 3 months.

The majority of A4 lads are training without any structure or reason and just giving it a lash at the weekend without ever really getting any better.

Well like I'm doing a British cycling training plan but not sure if it's doing me much good tbh