Green fees: how do we stop the golf consultants ruining golf?

thewobbler

First of all, I don't expect cheap golf on quality courses. And I do expect that the market should determine the price, and not what I'm willing to pay.

But having scanned tee times for the coming weekend, a weekend which I must point out is in the middle of February, Seapoint are looking for €150pp for a Sunday morning tee time.

I can only assume a golf consultant has paid them a visit, and advised them about the now Fionn mac Cumhaill style story whereby Golf Links A was struggling to attract American visitors, until they cleverly trebled their prices overnight, at which point they'd a queue of price-equates-to-prestige-minded Yanks at their door. I call it Golf Links A as I've heard the same story about Ardglass, Castlerock, Ballyliffin, Portmarnock Links and Portsalon. It might even be a true story for some of them; for I've noticed that little old Kirkistown went down a similar route last winter.

As mentioned, I've no qualms with market rates.

But I'm going to make an assumption that Irish people won't pay €150 for a round of golf in February.  And another one that the volume of American golf tourists in Ireland during February would comfortably fit in a single minibus.

So, can we possibly start spreading out a rumour (one which hopefully our golf travel consultants pick up upon, and turn into one of their rules) that golf courses really need to price according to the seasons?

s8n

Invest in a good quality mower and a pin and stick a challenging hole in your back garden !!

SEORG

Do they have a GUI members rate?

AnneFrank

supply and demand, play somewhere else.

thewobbler

AnneFrank wrote: »

supply and demand, play somewhere else.

As every tee time from 8.40 to 10.20 is currently available, I might actually have considered supply and demand before writing this post.

morrga

A very simple solution I harp on about is that we should have a GUI rate for every course in Ireland. It could encourage casual golfers to retain membership if they know they can play a links in high summer for sensible money. It also allows us differentiate our products between a tourism product and a local product. Support local, protect consumers and all that.

Its a simple solution the GUI could enforce considering that all clubs are affiliated to the GUI. No GUI rate, no GUI membership. Simple.

golfguy1

morrga wrote: »

A very simple solution I harp on about is that we should have a GUI rate for every course in Ireland. It could encourage casual golfers to retain membership if they know they can play a links in high summer for sensible money. It also allows us differentiate our products between a tourism product and a local product. Support local, protect consumers and all that.

Its a simple solution the GUI could enforce considering that all clubs are affiliated to the GUI. No GUI rate, no GUI membership. Simple.

Why should some of our top golf clubs give cheap golf to gui members in high season.
Everybody has the choice not to play a course they deem to expensive.
If the top courses are making good money it's well done them

backspin.

golfguy1 wrote: »

Why should some of our top golf clubs give cheap golf to gui members in high season.
Everybody has the choice not to play a course they deem to expensive.
If the top courses are making good money it's well done them

To offer a bit more of a community for golfers and maybe attract and retain people in the game. Lots of people don't have a lot of money and can get a little bored playing their home course week in week out. It would be nice if they could play some of the bigger courses for a reasonable price.

thewobbler

golfguy1 wrote: »

morrga wrote: »

A very simple solution I harp on about is that we should have a GUI rate for every course in Ireland. It could encourage casual golfers to retain membership if they know they can play a links in high summer for sensible money. It also allows us differentiate our products between a tourism product and a local product. Support local, protect consumers and all that.

Its a simple solution the GUI could enforce considering that all clubs are affiliated to the GUI. No GUI rate, no GUI membership. Simple.

Why should some of our top golf clubs give cheap golf to gui members in high season.
Everybody has the choice not to play a course they deem to expensive.
If the top courses are making good money  it's well done them

I'd agree. If the market is willing to sustain full rates, then a course shouldn't offer discounts. I doubt though very much if all of the courses adopting a "price for America" strategy are achieving their aim.

This Seapoint pricing strategy (€150 in February) definitely feels like they've skipped a few pages of research and can only see $$$$ signs.

golfguy1

backspin. wrote: »

To offer a bit more of a community for golfers and maybe attract and retain people in the game. Lots of people don't have a lot of money and can get a little bored playing their home course week in week out. It would be nice if they could play some of the bigger courses for a reasonable

I don't see why. Golf clubs are run as businesses now.
Why would for example ballybunion who in high season are getting €180pp during the season all day everyday suddenly be FORCED to give gui mbers a reduction.
Trust me I would love to be able to afford all those links courses but I totally agree with their pricing if they are getting the bookings.
SEAPOINT IS A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME.!!!!
NOT WORTH €50 IN SUMMER

morrga

Because we are all members of the same entity. We all fall under the same umbrella. Why shouldn't we have a loyalty scheme amongst the nation of GUI members. Yes we should separate ourselves from the tourist price point.

Lets be patriotic about this and protect our fellow members. Anyone who is a member of these high end clubs do not pay a membership fee in line with the green fees. They pay between 600 and 800 in some links out west. So its laughable they view their product as premium value when they dont pay a premium price for their membership. If you pay 10,000 a year then yep fair enough, lock the gates.

We should look after our members not punish them because some cash loaded foreigners want to pay over the odds. Not many people will agree a game of golf is justified as a three figure price point. And the people who do are probably the people who dont even pay above a 1,000 euro for their membership.

slave1

Ha ha ha, Seapoint not worth €150 at the height of Summer, €30 now maybe €50-€60 in Summer and that's only because it's got a few links holes. Lovely clubhouse and grub though

golfguy1

morrga wrote: »

Because we are all members of the same entity. We all fall under the same umbrella. Why shouldn't we have a loyalty scheme amongst the nation of GUI members. Yes we should separate ourselves from the tourist price point.

Lets be patriotic about this and protect our fellow members. Anyone who is a member of these high end clubs do not pay a membership fee in line with the green fees. They pay between 600 and 800 in some links out west. So its laughable they view their product as premium value when they dont pay a premium price for their membership. If you pay 10,000 a year then yep fair enough, lock the gates.

We should look after our members not punish them because some cash loaded foreigners want to pay over the odds. Not many people will agree a game of golf is justified as a three figure price point. And the people who do are probably the people who dont even pay above a 1,000 euro for their membership.

Sorry don't see it happening. If that was the case we would all join slievenamon type clubs for €150 and have the privilege of going to the tralees/lahinch/ballybunion and play.
What about the lucky members of these clubs what benefit to them

morrga

I know it wont happen, but its silly that it wont when it makes so much sense.

Members of such clubs of course would get benefit. A Tralee or Ballybunion member can go play Lahinch, K Club, Mount Juliet, European club etc.

Remember the members of such high end links courses are many ordinary folk who if they happened to be over east would not fork out 180 to play the European club but if it was available to them at a GUI rate of 50 quid, you can be certain they'd play. So yes there is benefit.

Its win win for everyone. Some, not all, just need to take off their glasses and stop looking down their nose. Golf thankfully is no longer a game for the privileged. So why not have a loyalty scheme for GUI members.

I am not suggesting open the flood gates, but it couldn't hurt to have some slots made available to GUI members.

moycullen14

morrga wrote: »

Because we are all members of the same entity. We all fall under the same umbrella. Why shouldn't we have a loyalty scheme amongst the nation of GUI members. Yes we should separate ourselves from the tourist price point.

Lets be patriotic about this and protect our fellow members. Anyone who is a member of these high end clubs do not pay a membership fee in line with the green fees. They pay between 600 and 800 in some links out west. So its laughable they view their product as premium value when they dont pay a premium price for their membership. If you pay 10,000 a year then yep fair enough, lock the gates.

We should look after our members not punish them because some cash loaded foreigners want to pay over the odds. Not many people will agree a game of golf is justified as a three figure price point. And the people who do are probably the people who dont even pay above a 1,000 euro for their membership.

I'm not sure that's going to work. In effect you're asking members at these clubs to subsidise your golf. It's not like there is an infinite amount of tee times on these courses. I know members in some of these west coast links and they would happily get rid of the Americans and sacrifice the cash for better access in the summer. If they opened up Lahinch, say, at 40 euros a round, they would be swamped.

Nothing comes without cost. The reason why membership at these courses is cheap is because of the green fee income. The members pay for that with restricted tee-times.

I brought a few Americans to Lahinch/Tralee and Ballybunion a few years back. They thought the green free of 180 euro or whatever it was, was ridiculously cheap. They wouldn't get out on comparable courses in the US for love nor money.

golfguy1

morrga wrote: »

I know it wont happen, but its silly that it wont when it makes so much sense.

Members of such clubs of course would get benefit. A Tralee or Ballybunion member can go play Lahinch, K Club, Mount Juliet, European club etc.

Remember the members of such high end links courses are many ordinary folk who if they happened to be over east would not fork out 180 to play the European club but if it was available to them at a GUI rate of 50 quid, you can be certain they'd play. So yes there is benefit.

Its win win for everyone. Some, not all, just need to take off their glasses and stop looking down their nose. Golf thankfully is no longer a game for the privileged. So why not have a loyalty scheme for GUI members.

I am not suggesting open the flood gates, but it couldn't hurt to have some slots made available to GUI

Lovely idea alrite but one last question what about the course that are already down to €10-€30 and struggling surely they couldnt afford to further discount

kiers47

I was browsing for a new car yesterday and when i went to the Ferrari garage they were charging almost 10 times the price that i could buy a VW for.
How absolutely dare they charge more money for a superior product!!

PARlance

kiers47 wrote: »

I was browsing for a new car yesterday and when i went to the Ferrari garage they were charging almost 10 times the price that i could buy a VW for.
How absolutely dare they charge more money for a superior product!!

Ah ya, but the OP went to a different VW garage and found out that they were charging twice as much as a Ferrari...

kiers47

PARlance wrote: »

Ah ya, but the OP went to a different VW garage and found out that they were charging twice as much as a Ferrari...

I cant comment on Sea Point. I have no idea how good or bad it is. Was more referring to the Ballybunion and Tralee and other top rank links in the discussion.

morrga

Ah kiers47 stop with the childish nonsense.

I am referring to a membership based structure that we have in golf. Show me the membership clubs that Volkswagen and Ferrari run? Actually dont. Cause this thread doesnt deserve to get sidetracked with nonsense.

kiers47

Leading on from my smart comment. Sorry i couldnt help myself.

This may sound stupid. But do people actually call these courses for a green fee? In my experience they almost always will match whatever deal you are getting off tee-times or other booking site. Also in terms of playing these high end links the staff are usually helpful in advising what the best price and when you can get this price is.

RoadRunner

I just don't get the need for green fees at all

boomtown84

There is a GUI rate for Open Competitions in most of the top courses in the country. Tralee and Ballybunion are only €50 to play. Played both their Junior Scratch Cups last year in the same weekend. Great value. You need to be quick to get on the time sheet though.

Quick edit: Played Mt. Juliet last week for €40 and you can play the Ryder course in the K Club most weeks for €60. European has/had a €50 deal too. Just need to keep an eye on golfnet.

kiers47

morrga wrote: »

Ah kiers47 stop with the childish nonsense.

I am referring to a membership based structure that we have in golf. Show me the membership clubs that Volkswagen and Ferrari run? Actually dont. Cause this thread doesnt deserve to get sidetracked with nonsense.

Im not really sure what you are getting at membership based structure.

But anyway. Take as an example Ballybunion GC. It is a members club. Why in the name of god if i was a member there would I want Joe Bloggs from Cork playing for €50 when i can get €180 off Jimmy Johnson from Texas.

And also say Doonbeg. How does one enforce Mr Trump to reduce his rate for every Tom, Dick and Harry from the GUI to play there at a reduced rate. Sure it sounds great in fantasy land but these are functioning business's and their objective is to make money for the upkeep of the course for members or whoever the stakeholders have.

The GUI do not have the power to enforce this.

morrga

Yep which in itself is an admission that they dont even expect GUI members to pay Tourist rates.
Yes most staff at these courses would help to assist in finding a favourable green fee. I played Ballyliffin last summer and the first question he asked me is, do I have a GUI card so I ended up paying 50 quid.
The culture is out there. I am suggesting it should be made more formal and if even on a limited basis for all GUI members it would at least help foster a greater golfing community amongst GUI members.

morrga

The GUI could withdraw its affiliation from the GUI is one solution.

Texas or Cork. Let me be patriotic. Look after your own. And besides I am not suggesting making a choice. I suggest we accomodate both.

A membership based structure is where a group of members from several different clubs are all members at the end of the day under one umbrella.
Many clubs offer reciprocal days at other clubs so that might give you an idea of what I am on about. A loyalty scheme for members.

kiers47

I see what your going for but i think it is pretty unlikely you would get buy in from any of the high end courses.
And the GUI is not going to push the wrong buttons with any of these clubs. But anyway that's my tuppence.

morrga

I agree. I cant see the GUI implementing it or pressing clubs for it which is a pity. We'll just have to stick to the informal nod and a wink route.

golfguy1

I personally think for golf in Ireland there is very good value to be had.
Just can't agree on clubs been forced to open up tee times for gui members. The big clubs would be swamped with Irish lads getting cheap golf. Whatever about our American tourist pretty sure it would piss off our british/European tourists when they find out they are being ripped off because of their nationality

morrga wrote: »

The GUI could withdraw its affiliation from the GUI is one solution.

Texas or Cork. Let me be patriotic. Look after your own. And besides I am not suggesting making a choice. I suggest we accomodate both.

A membership based structure is where a group of members from several different clubs are all members at the end of the day under one umbrella.
Many clubs offer reciprocal days at other clubs so that might give you an idea of what I am on about. A loyalty scheme for members.

golfguy1

By the way in Kerry every club member gets 25% discount for all Kerry clubs.
Still not going to give ballbunion/tralee or Waterville €150 for a game!!!!!

backspin.

golfguy1 wrote: »

backspin. wrote: »

To offer a bit more of a community for golfers and maybe attract and retain people in the game. Lots of people don't have a lot of money and can get a little bored playing their home course week in week out. It would be nice if they could play some of the bigger courses for a reasonable

I don't see why. Golf clubs are run as businesses now.
Why would for example ballybunion who in high season are getting €180pp during the season all day everyday suddenly be FORCED to give gui mbers a reduction.
Trust me I would love to be able to afford all those links courses but I totally agree with their pricing if they are getting the bookings.
SEAPOINT IS A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME.!!!!
NOT WORTH €50 IN SUMMER

Of course not if they are busy. But is it really full all day every day. They could offer decent rates in off season.

golfguy1

Certainly during the season from may to mid October the main links courses in kerry/Clare are running close to full everyday. Pretty sure they do off season rates but still around €100.
Again I don't see why the SHOULD give any discount just because I am a member of an Irish golf club. Let's remember we only pay around €20 a yr to the gui
I can't think of any other business that gives me a discount just cause I'm Irish.

backspin. wrote: »

golfguy1 wrote: »

Of course not if they are busy. But is it really full all day every day. They could offer decent rates in off season.

ShivasIrons

I think some of the views posted in this thread show how the race to the bottom has been very detrimental to golf in Ireland.

There is a view been put out that every golf course in Ireland should offer their course for next to nothing.

However it is as simple as this, if you don't think a course is worth the fee they're asking don't pay it. Play somewhere else.

As has been pointed out earlier, you shouldn't be expecting to get a Ferrari for Mini prices.

neckedit

thewobbler wrote: »

First of all, I don't expect cheap golf on quality courses. And I do expect that the market should determine the price, and not what I'm willing to pay.

But having scanned tee times for the coming weekend, a weekend which I must point out is in the middle of February, Seapoint are looking for €150pp for a Sunday morning tee time.

I can only assume a golf consultant has paid them a visit, and advised them about the now Fionn mac Cumhaill style story whereby Golf Links A was struggling to attract American visitors, until they cleverly trebled their prices overnight, at which point they'd a queue of price-equates-to-prestige-minded Yanks at their door. I call it Golf Links A as I've heard the same story about Ardglass, Castlerock, Ballyliffin, Portmarnock Links and Portsalon. It might even be a true story for some of them; for I've noticed that little old Kirkistown went down a similar route last winter.

As mentioned, I've no qualms with market rates.

But I'm going to make an assumption that Irish people won't pay €150 for a round of golf in February.  And another one that the volume of American golf tourists in Ireland during February would comfortably fit in a single minibus.

So, can we possibly start spreading out a rumour (one which hopefully our golf travel consultants pick up upon, and turn into one of their rules) that golf courses really need to price according to the seasons?

Sunday Morning is Prime time.....
While I agree the Rate is on the high side, Its prime time. You did notice that they have many many open days for €30?


P.S. It was Ardglass.

thewobbler

Prime time is not February.

Adiaga 2

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I think some of the views posted in this thread show how the race to the bottom has been very detrimental to golf in Ireland.

There is a view been put out that every golf course in Ireland should offer their course for next to nothing.

However it is as simple as this, if you don't think a course is worth the fee they're asking don't pay it. Play somewhere else.

As has been pointed out earlier, you shouldn't be expecting to get a Ferrari for Mini prices.

It's interesting how value for money in green fees is labelled "race to the bottom" so often. I don't get it personally. Are you saying making golf more affordable to more people is a bad thing? That's what it sounds like.

€150 for Seapoint in February, even on a sunday morning, is ridiculously over priced. It's like the Dacia garage next door to the Ferrari one asking Ferrari prices for a Duster.

newport2

I've found in the past that a lot of places don't charge what they advertise.

I played Enniscrone and Carne last year. Enniscrone was €135, I played open comp which was held weekly for €30. Carne was €110 with a GUI rate of €55.

Last time I played Doonbeg it was €150 and quiet. I went into the pro shop and asked what was the best deal they would give me. €90 for a round and dinner in the bar afterwards was the response. Got to play Lahinch for €40 because friend's uncle was a member and wangled it for us despite the fact he wasn't playing that day.

I think like the OP says, to attract a certain clientel they need to be seen to charge a premium. But there's often ways of getting around paying it.

prawnsambo

There's an operator in France (and to a limited extent in a few other countries) called Golfy that gives you discounted green fees in many golf courses. It's obviously not the same thing, but at a starting price of €112, you can get discounts of 25% on green fees. Perhaps a model like that could work for GUI members?

neckedit

thewobbler wrote: »

Prime time is not February.

while February is not Peak Season,
Sunday at the Majority of Clubs is Prime Time. There is a difference.

PARlance

neckedit wrote: »

Sunday Morning is Prime time.....
While I agree the Rate is on the high side, Its prime time. You did notice that they have many many open days for €30?


P.S. It was Ardglass.

No, no, it was The Island...

Would love another go at Ardglass now that you mention it. Played it in an absolute gale before. Had to take the driver out on the Par 3 2nd, hit the best 170 yard drive of my life to a few feet.

Deals can be got anywhere, no point making a fuss about a club doing a bit of marketing to tourists. There's unreal value for golf here if you want to make it work for you.

PARlance

prawnsambo wrote: »

There's an operator in France (and to a limited extent in a few other countries) called Golfy that gives you discounted green fees in many golf courses. It's obviously not the same thing, but at a starting price of €112, you can get discounts of 25% on green fees. Perhaps a model like that could work for GUI members?

www.openfairways.com/golf-courses/UK-and-Ireland/Ireland

This has been around for some time here. I don't think there's much of an uptake of it purely for the simple reason that you can find many ways to pay less than the rake rate without such a card.

If link isn't working, just search Open Fairways. It's the same thing that you describe.

prawnsambo

neckedit wrote: »

while February is not Peak Season,
Sunday at the Majority of Clubs is Prime Time. There is a difference.

I just had a look on teetimes and these are the rates for Seapoint at the moment:

Monday - Thursday: €80
Friday: €100
Saturday: €120
Sunday: €150

Seapoint is the only course in County Louth offering bookings on teetimes. So pretty much in a monopoly situation on the site.

neckedit

prawnsambo wrote: »

I just had a look on teetimes and these are the rates for Seapoint at the moment:

Monday - Thursday: €80
Friday: €100
Saturday: €120
Sunday: €150

Seapoint is the only course in County Louth offering bookings on teetimes. So pretty much in a monopoly situation on the site.

i'm sure you saw the Open Days for €30 too...

prawnsambo

neckedit wrote: »

i'm sure you saw the Open Days for €30 too...

The open days aren't advertised on teetimes.

neckedit

Sorry they are on the website.
I think it is important to point this out as the discussion has gone on to talk about GUI membership deals.

There are GUI rates on certain days for €40 on their website.

I think the €150 is well overpriced but apart from that it looks like there is no members time before 10:30am on Sunday. I can't imagine that is popular among members.

backspin.

My cousin tells me he played Ballyliffin a few weeks ago for €30. He s a member of a Donegal club so maybe there is a reciprocal deal.

benny79

Lads most clubs offer a gui rate if you ring and ask them. I was in Kerry on holidays 1 summer and got waterville for €65 in the middle of July 2 american lads that were behind me paid €180 each..

Petty the weather was terrible! it was like playing in a hurricane on the last few holes but enjoyed the experience

shamco

The GUI rate is waterville is a lot dearer now. I rang them last year and I think they quoted me ca €150

Dbu

shamco wrote: »

The GUI rate is waterville is a lot dearer now. I rang them last year and I think they quoted me ca €150

Open to correction, but I think Waterville is now €90 with a member, so €150 sounds about right.
Class track though

benny79

So its doubled in 2 years that's poor form