Judge forced to grant bail to teen as Oberstown full

MilesMorales1

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2018/0212/940172-teenager-bail-oberstown/

A judge has been forced to grant bail to the same "out of control" teenager for a second time in less than a week because the State's main juvenile detention centre was full.

The 16-year-old appeared before the Dublin Children's Court last Wednesday charged over raids at two corner shops in which staff members were attacked and beaten with a pole and a glass bottle.

However, the then presiding judge had to grant bail because there were no places available in Oberstown detention centre to hold the boy, who cannot be named because he is a minor.

Should there not be somewhere else to send him? What if he hurts someone else now, because there was no room to detain him?

wes

Maybe release a less serious offender near the end of the jail term to make room?

Fr_Dougal

He needs a good kick up the hole.

Samuel T. Cogley

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

He needs a good kick up the hole.

Should of put him in the Joy would have got more than a kick up his...

JMNolan

I don't follow? Why is it the judges concern as to how full the prison is? Isn't that why we have a prison service? To worry about the prisons.

Odhinn

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Should of put him in the Joy would have got more than a kick up his...

Yep. Then he comes out a worse header than he went in. Great craic.

Samuel T. Cogley

Odhinn wrote: »

Yep. Then he comes out a worse header than he went in. Great craic.

That's likely to happen anyway. Anyway it was meant ironically but nm.

endacl

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

He needs a good kick up the hole.

Like Bishop Len Brennan?

Odhinn

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That's likely to happen anyway.

It's possible, but we had a culture of "let them be raped" semi-officially here for decades - longer, I suppose, and I see no reason to continue it.

Hector Bellend

Put him in a cell with Tom Humphreys.

Might just cure him.

punisher5112

Odhinn wrote: »

Yep. Then he comes out a worse header than he went in. Great craic.

At 16 he has attacked people...

Next level is murder so he is on the right track for that.

He needs to be locked up either way.

I just hope he tries it again on the wrong person and the pole and bottle go very far up where the sun don't shine.

suicide_circus

Build more prisons. If someone isn't rehabilitated by prison then at least they pose no danger to the public for the duration of incarceration.

Grab All Association

Financial sanctions on his parent(s) welfare would put a stop to this. This child was probably raised like livestock for the rewards of the council house and child benefit paying for his parents drugs and alcohol. It’s time to stop subsidising this.

punisher5112

Grab All Association wrote: »

Financial sanctions on his parent(s) welfare would put a stop to this. This child was probably raised like livestock for the rewards of the council house and child benefit paying for his parents drugs and alcohol. It’s time to stop subsidising this.

I believe after 2 kids it should be ones choice and up to them to pay.

Prison inmates should be made work even if it is just breaking rocks get them doing something inside them walls.

You know the way everything is all about save the planet and green house gasses, why not put in the likes of treadmills and get them all to take turns walking etc to generate electricity at least for the prison.

€90k per inmate be cheaper to put them up in a hotel.

r93kaey5p2izun

Oberstown is now a complete failure. Totally inadequate in terms of both capacity and resources to cope with our young offenders. God help the people who have to put up with this lad's behaviour while he's left loose to run amok.

corner of hells

Stanley Panicky Rayon wrote: »

Oberstown is now a complete failure. Totally inadequate in terms of both capacity and resources to cope with our young offenders. God help the people who have to put up with this lad's behaviour while he's left loose to run amok.

I don't it's categorised as a prison , it's staffed by social care workers moreso than prison officers

r93kaey5p2izun

corner of hells wrote: »

I don't it's categorised as a prison , it's staffed by social care workers moreso than prison officers

I know. I'm very familiar with it.

Gatling

corner of hells wrote: »

I don't it's categorised as a prison , it's staffed by social care workers moreso than prison officers

It's a prison , carehome , detention center , mental health facility ,
It's a complete picnic basket of a facility ,

In this case mountjoy should be used especially when dealing with a dangerous and unstable person

corner of hells

Gatling wrote: »

It's a prison , carehome , detention center , mental health facility ,
It's a complete picnic basket of a facility ,

In this case mountjoy should be used especially when dealing with a dangerous and unstable person

Wasn't that the problem originally , keeping under 18s in Mountjoy ?

Odhinn

It has quite a small capacity - 70-80?. In addition, Trinity house has only about 24 places. Given that they are the only detention centres for youth now, it may well be its housing ranges of people it isn't suited for.

Gatling

corner of hells wrote: »

Wasn't that the problem originally , keeping under 18s in Mountjoy ?

Not 100% actually but it's highly likely ,
But I'm almost sure I read a case where a 19yo was sentenced to be detained at oberstown recently which makes zero sense to me

Odhinn

corner of hells wrote: »

Wasn't that the problem originally , keeping under 18s in Mountjoy ?

That and the hellhole of St Pats.

SEPT 23 1989

A good male role model and a slap is what he needs

Odhinn

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

A good male role model and a slap is what he needs

And the shame is he'll probably only get the slap.

splinter65

From what released prisoners tell me, there’s far far too much hanging around all day in prison and young offenders institutions.
Every waking hour should be filled with some activity be it learning a trade or a craft or literacy classes, basic cookery, laundry, money management, civic and personal responsibilty etc
Proper stuff with exams that have to be passed and possibly a FETAC accreditation level 4 or whatever.
You can’t be considered for early release until you’ve achieved at least a passing grade.
Fine big young fellas in the whole of their physical health sitting around on the beds 1/2 the day driving themselves insane with boredom

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

From what released prisoners tell me, there’s far far too much hanging around all day in prison and young offenders institutions.
Every waking hour should be filled with some activity be it learning a trade or a craft or literacy classes, basic cookery, laundry, money management, civic and personal responsibilty etc
Proper stuff with exams that have to be passed and possibly a FETAC accreditation level 4 or whatever.
You can’t be considered for early release until you’ve achieved at least a passing grade.
Fine big young fellas in the whole of their physical health sitting around on the beds 1/2 the day driving themselves insane with boredom

That costs money and would be categorised as rehabilitation. Given the hostility towards prisoners, short term thinking tends to rule the day, and as a result funding isn't there, to the best of my knowledge.

corner of hells

splinter65 wrote: »

From what released prisoners tell me, there’s far far too much hanging around all day in prison and young offenders institutions.
Every waking hour should be filled with some activity be it learning a trade or a craft or literacy classes, basic cookery, laundry, money management, civic and personal responsibilty etc
Proper stuff with exams that have to be passed and possibly a FETAC accreditation level 4 or whatever.
You can’t be considered for early release until you’ve achieved at least a passing grade.
Fine big young fellas in the whole of their physical health sitting around on the beds 1/2 the day driving themselves insane with boredom

See if you can get a hold of Joy of Joys , it's not particularly interesting but gives an insight into what opportunity's are available.
Motivation seems to be a problem , though addiction and mental impact too.

I work with a couple of ex prisoners who started their initial education in prison.

Captain Obvious

It's interesting to me that the result of having women at the helm of every part of the justice system is an overly soft system whereas before, when controlled entirely by men, it was overly harsh.

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

That costs money and would be categorised as rehabilitation. Given the hostility towards prisoners, short term thinking tends to rule the day, and as a result funding isn't there, to the best of my knowledge.

Oh I wouldn’t be patting them on the head either at all, I just think young healthy people should be physically busy for 8 or 9 hours a day. Everything costs money unfortunately, money we haven’t got....

Cookie_Monster

how full is full? Two, three, more to a room / cell? I'm sure they could have found space somewhere even if it was a bit crowded. but nah, lets just release him on bail so he can hurt more people and cause more destruction.

Fr_Dougal

splinter65 wrote: »

Oh I wouldn’t be patting them on the head either at all, I just think young healthy people should be physically busy for 8 or 9 hours a day. Everything costs money unfortunately, money we haven’t got....

Military conscription.

the_syco

Hard labour to build another prison?

punisher5112

the_syco wrote: »

Hard labour to build another prison?

It would be interesting but it would be designed in a way they could escape.

Look up the black dolphin prison in Russia, each cell has 3 doors.

Nobody has ever escaped.

tayto lover

Boot Camp run by the army.
Good 10 mile hikes through rough terrain and up at 5 am and when they're very tired then bed at 8 pm.
No frills and just basic grub.
Leave them that they will fear going back.
They have no fear of what they're facing now.

punisher5112

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Military conscription.

It would worry me they would be trained how to kill when that may be what they are in for.

splinter65

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Military conscription.

I would be a supporter of that too.
And have no mercy or sympathy for them at all, boys or girls.

Geuze

Odhinn wrote: »

That costs money and would be categorised as rehabilitation. Given the hostility towards prisoners, short term thinking tends to rule the day, and as a result funding isn't there, to the best of my knowledge.

There are 256-272 staff in Oberstown.

https://www.oberstown.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Oberstown-Factsheet.pdf

At full capacity, it was envisaged that the Campus would accommodate 90 young people. The Campus is currently licensed to accommodate 48 boys and six girls.


https://www.oberstown.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/FINALOberstown-Summary-Report-of-External-Reviews.pdf

flas

The big problem is oberstown isn't a prison,and a lot of the prisoners are getting placed in with people who are not in for crimes as such. I know someone working there and he said its ridiculous,they are social workers who have been lumped with young offenders and the same with some of the residents who would be at risk kids of 14 and to have to share their space with 18 and 19 year old hardened criminals.its a cost saving exercise

AllForIt

I think 16 year olds should be treated like adults when they commit violent crimes. And yes I mean they should be put in adult prisons.

Omackeral

AllForIt wrote: »

I think 16 year olds should be treated like adults when they commit violent crimes. And yes I mean they should be put in adult prisons.

There's still hope for a 16 year old. Putting a child, and that's what they are at that age still legally, in with hardened and seasoned criminals is only gonna a) make them vunerable targets or b) harden them up and try to emulate the bigger heads and make them worse.

I have absolute sympathy for any workers in Oberstown House. They're so restricted in what they can do to discipline the young offenders. It's not a prison. It's a care home but some of the lads in it are big units and dangerous fcukers. It's a horribly grey area and the staff there have my respect. I work in a jail myself, a notorious enough one and I wouldn't fancy doing their job.

Billy86

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Odhinn wrote: »

Yep. Then he comes out a worse header than he went in. Great craic.

That's likely to happen anyway. Anyway it was meant ironically but nm.

Not really, oberstown is obviously geared towards young offenders and puts a lot of effort into reform and building them as people, quite different to how you treat an adult offender. I'm working in admin for tusla at the minute, and they genuinely do have some very good success with some very challenging teens. Of course not all by any stretch, but seeing a 16 year old do a complete 180 after just weeks in there following a solid year of nothing getting through to him was quite interesting, and that is only from last month.

I'm guessing this kid is too far gone for the likes of Crann Carrig or residential placements etc, it's a really tricky situation sadly.

AllForIt

Omackeral wrote: »

There's still hope for a 16 year old. Putting a child, and that's what they are at that age still legally, in with hardened and seasoned criminals is only gonna a) make them vunerable targets or b) harden them up and try to emulate the bigger heads and make them worse.

.

I respect your point of view on this especially in light of your background but I don't agree at all with your points of which I have heard many times before.

I think we have to stop thinking of the 14 to 18 year old bracket as poor little children that don't know any better and regard them as if they were our own offspring.

I think we too often underestimate the maturity (edit, maturity as in their max personal capabilty) and intelligence of teenagers in said bracket. What is the difference between a 30yo criminal and a 16 yo old one. Well the 30yo body has fully grown physically and have much more life experience. But is that really important because I think a persons level of intelligence is pretty much set from a very young age and as a corollary to that I think a persons understanding of what's right and wrong is set as well at a young age.

I recall whilst travelling on a London bus some years ago an incident where 2 young lads I would estimate to be around 14 punch another young lad somewhat older than them and stole his mobile phone leaving him with a bloody face. They got off the bus immediately after the incident before anyone could do anything. I don't believe in some kind of transcendent evil but what will stay with me from that incident was the look on the face of the ringleader of the pack of two. He looked pure evil to me and got off the bus looking fully satisfied and big about himself for what he just done. I'll never forget that face. I was shocked by the what I saw.

Of course in comparison to other crimes that incident might seem trivial, certainly in comparison to the knife crime that is going on in London recently.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/14/number-of-young-people-penalised-for-carrying-knives-at-eight-year-high. I think these things are happening because we're not dealing with the situation effectively, in other words we are too soft on them cause we can't bear the idea of being too hard on youngsters.

I think it is a mistake to underestimate the intelligence of those kinds of teenagers. To them it is a game that they choose to partake in. For their own enjoyment as well as material gain. They know full well that the law will treat them more leniently than they would an adult. They are not stupid. They know they can plead bad family home etc etc etc. They know they will be sent to a correctional institution for the sake of being reformed rather than punished. They know will get out by faking a bit of contrition and then out to do the same stuff again or even worse.

I take you point about being soft targets in adult prisons but I'm not convinced it would be acceptable practice even in a prison to pick on the younger ones but even if I agreed with that I would still say they should at least be sent to a adult-like prison with ppl of their own age group. I would give them shorter sentences though.

In fact I think that if they were the chances of them reforming are higher than what we see from the way they are dealt will currently and their victims might even feel a bit better about it.

scamalert

oh well lets see how long until the poor 16yr old bashes someones head in. then create another topic on how someone with 30 convictions is free to roam sitting for a week in catered cell.

Makes me wonder do these judges live on private island or smth, surely if it was them or some close family member such judge would seek to sentence such scum as adult to never see the daylight again.Prison system here needs likes corporations of US, locked in for decades and turning profit making crap for cents on the hour, surely millions made from that wouldnt hurt economy.