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Joey carbstrong

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    #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dakota Dan wrote: »
    Well I suppose if you argue with stupid people they'll eventually bring you down to their level :) Vegan milk substitutes lack iodine unlike cows milk which has been proven to lower IQ.


    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/most-milk-substitutes-are-low-in-iodine-heres-why-it-matters-83589

    Well it doesn't seem to have done him much good, or some posters on here in relation to their IQ or the cross on their carrying going by their posts.

    Can get links a plenty to show how plant based milk substitutes are healthier, not that I drink them myself I prefer cows milk. I'm simply pointing out where you can find the evidence you asked for.


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    #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gozunda wrote: »
    I reckon the above is not up for question. However If I remember correctly what was being discussed was wether the issue of a cow 'grieving' is either emotion and / or maternal instinct



    I think the OP was attempting to canvas other posters about JC and his followers. Carbstrong comes across a bit of a nutter tbh



    Didn't see that on TV :confused: But ya alot of the debate/ exchange of views can get seriously derailed imo. Though imo anyone promoting death threats deserves the full weight of the law and consequences

    Short answer I don't know but then again no one does, in my opinion.
    Dairy cows do get distressed when their calf is taken from them and it can last a couple of days, seen it when working for my uncle, eventually return to normal which is how all species react.

    Asked my wife if she thought this was emotion or maternal instinct, she goes with the latter, but that the two can be linked.
    Based this on research her dad did as a zoologist and biologist into instinct and emotion and the two can be very strongly linked. They looked at apes down to dogs so you could also argue it could be down to the level of intelligence and/or evolution given some species don't even rear their young.


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gozunda wrote: »
    Didn't see that on TV :confused: But ya alot of the debate/ exchange of views can get seriously derailed imo. Though imo anyone promoting death threats deserves the full weight of the law and consequences

    Yep no one should be getting death threats.

    Usual keyboard warrior sh1t that just one level up or down depending on how you look at it, from some of the stuff you see posted on here lately.

    Most farmers take good care of their animals walfaremost from an economic stand point, others from a love of them too. Others couldn't give a sh1t as long as they get money out of them. They're ones that don't are also quite often the ones that are in the phone giving out about the size of the vets bill. But you get that type of person in all walks of life.


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    #65
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    With regard to cows going in-calf, a healthy mature cow or heifer will cycle every 21 days, 18 to 24 days is the general range, it is exhibited by "bulling" activity which is cows mounting the cow in heat and the the cow in heat standing when they do so, the cow in heat will also attempt to mount others in the herd whether or not they are in heat, if they are they will also stand if not they run off from the cow jumping. The majority of herds use a bull to either do the final few weeks of breeding as with less cows in heat his nose will find those cows as with less activity the farmer may not see it, or some herds use a bull or bulls for the entire season.
    The main reasons AI is used are,
    1 safety as bulls can be unpredictable and their size and power can be dangerous,
    2 matching different bulls to individual cows in order to improve breeding, predominantly from a health perspective which the Irish breeding is geared towards,
    3 easier calving, AI bulls have more info behind them so you are more confident that the resultant calf will be smaller and thus less chance of a difficult birth.

    Cows like most animals come in heat purely to breed, if they are not in heat they won't breed., won't mate. Many cows will literally stand still when ai is carried out. A pippette is used to deposit semen at the end of the cervix, takes a couple of minutes if that at all. A lubricated arm is much less forceful than a bull mounting, bulls are generally 200 to 300kgs heavier than cows and when they mount they literally jump using all their force when mating. Most dairy herds will use an Aberdeen angus bull as they are a smaller breed and have small calves and even those bulls would be bigger than any dairy cow. And a bull may do it a couple of times in the 12 to 24 hours the cows is in heat. To equate AI to rape is quite simply ridiculous and insult to those unfortunate enough to have suffered it. Using emotive and quiet frankly nonsensical language such as that only makes clear the exaggerations used in order to put across the vegan ethos and like with most things when lads start exaggerating they come across as nothing but bull****ters like the aforementioned Mr Armstrong, as i believe is his real name.

    Also I see these "discussions" on Twitter where these profiles have no names associated with them constantly commenting against farmers who have identified themselves and tbh assuming it's not those bot things it is nothing but cowardly behaviour

    On a side note, could well be wrong, but Afaik people are the only group that have sex outside of the cycle for pleasure or whatever.


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    #66
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mooooo wrote: »
    On a side note, could well be wrong, but Afaik people are the only group that have sex outside of the cycle for pleasure or whatever.

    Dolphin and Bonobo mate outside the female being fertile. Some say it's for pleasure others as a bonding act, not sure about other apes but don't think so.


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    #67
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    ...

    Can get links a plenty to show how plant based milk substitutes are healthier, not that I drink them myself I prefer cows milk. I'm simply pointing out where you can find the evidence you asked for.

    Regarding plant based milk substitutes - In college I studied plant chemistry and knowing how soya beans are processed would make me not a fan of this type of 'milk'

    Suffice to say that in their raw state soya beans are toxic. A chemical solvent process is used to render the beans edible. That and the fact that eating soya has a number of serious health concerns would make me run a mile from the stuff.

    Traditional fermentation processes in the far east rendered soya by a more natural process afaik.

    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-soy-bad-for-you-or-good

    Now dont get me wrong- I don't drink milk of any kind as a rule - just was never a big fan tbh. A lot of the plant based milk I've seen on the shelves are also loaded with added sugar.


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    #68
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Well it doesn't seem to have done him much good, or some posters on here in relation to their IQ or the cross on their carrying going by their posts.

    Can get links a plenty to show how plant based milk substitutes are healthier, not that I drink them myself I prefer cows milk. I'm simply pointing out where you can find the evidence you asked for.

    Of course you can get plenty links but are any of them proven?
    Here a a few expert opinions on the subject, they seem to be more in favour of cows milk.

    https://www.bestfoodfacts.org/is-plant-based-milk-healthy/


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dakota Dan wrote: »
    Of course you can get plenty links but are any of them proven?
    Here a a few expert opinions on the subject, they seem to be more in favour of cows milk.

    https://www.bestfoodfacts.org/is-plant-based-milk-healthy/

    Wouldn't call that link scientificly proven in anyway, might want to try

    https://www.evidence.nhs.uk/Search?q=%22soya+milk%22

    Dairy farmers really seem up in arms about the whole plant based alternatives since the end of the milk quotas based on the timing of most of the anti vegan topics appearing on here.


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    #70
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Wouldn't call that link scientificly proven in anyway, might want to try

    https://www.evidence.nhs.uk/Search?q=%22soya+milk%22

    Dairy farmers really seem up in arms about the whole plant based alternatives since the end of the milk quotas based on the timing of most of the anti vegan topics appearing on here.

    I never said it was proven, I gave you an example of a few expert opinions on the subject. You can hardly say plants give milk, milk substitutes is a better term.


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    #71
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Wouldn't call that link scientificly proven in anyway, might want to try

    https://www.evidence.nhs.uk/Search?q=%22soya+milk%22

    Dairy farmers really seem up in arms about the whole plant based alternatives since the end of the milk quotas based on the timing of most of the anti vegan topics appearing on here.

    I wouldn't say that it's associated with qouta removal, it's more to do with social media and the appearance of anonymous accounts which the go on to accuse farmers of being rapists and murderers etc. I assume you wouldn't take too kindly to being called a rapist


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    #72
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Wouldn't call that link scientificly proven in anyway, might want to try

    https://www.evidence.nhs.uk/Search?q=%22soya+milk%22

    Dairy farmers really seem up in arms about the whole plant based alternatives since the end of the milk quotas based on the timing of most of the anti vegan topics appearing on here.
    Mooooo wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that it's associated with qouta removal, it's more to do with social media and the appearance of anonymous accounts which the go on to accuse farmers of being rapists and murderers etc. I assume you wouldn't take too kindly to being called a rapist
    Vegans were celebrating Veganuary, with some success it must be said. So a farmer on twitter decided that farmers should do the same, celebrate dairying on twitter in much the same way as Veganuary so #Februdairy as coined.

    Cue meltdown from Vegans on twitter. There were so many 'new' vegan anonymous accounts wading into the fray that a large cohort had to be troll accounts.

    Which is fine, until you take note of the abuse those accounts bring with them. I'm not saying no farmers were at the same crap but the vast majority of farmers accounts are using their real world names not some made up, snappy, disposable twitter handle. I'e spotted one guy with 6 different vegan accounts since the start of February and I'm going to assume at least as many more for the rest of the month. And seeing as it appears you can spout some amount of nonsense and abuse on twitter with no consequences, that looks like the next e-battleground.


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    #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As I said earlier I don't condone any form of threats online or in person and no vegan I know would either.

    I did security from 16 to 24 in Dublin while also working in the building sites when I could. I received plenty of threats and have been called everything you could imagine and was stabbed twice. At first threats and being called a child molester etc when throwing some junkie out of a place upset me, but in the end it was just water off a ducks back. Dublin is a small enough place not to know where these people lived and a simple reminder of this normally fixed most issues.

    Online threats aren't something I get to worried about either, but then again I'm not into social media and doing what I do now if needs be know that so called anonymous accounts can be traced.

    As in any situation it's the loud mouths and keyboard warriors that try to gain the most air time, meaning neither side look to good. Some of the posts on here from people cllaiming to be farmers certainly don't paint them in a great light and conform to worse stereotype, the same for those that claim to be vegan.


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    #74
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    Can the world become vegan? Apparently not, well not completely by any means. I think both sides should strike a happy medium and stop the slander.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/gpfarmblog.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/can-the-world-go-vegan-a-studied-viewpoint-re/amp/


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    #75
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    As I said earlier I don't condone any form of threats online or in person and no vegan I know would either.

    I did security from 16 to 24 in Dublin while also working in the building sites when I could. I received plenty of threats and have been called everything you could imagine and was stabbed twice. At first threats and being called a child molester etc when throwing some junkie out of a place upset me, but in the end it was just water off a ducks back. Dublin is a small enough place not to know where these people lived and a simple reminder of this normally fixed most issues.

    Online threats aren't something I get to worried about either, but then again I'm not into social media and doing what I do now if needs be know that so called anonymous accounts can be traced.

    As in any situation it's the loud mouths and keyboard warriors that try to gain the most air time, meaning neither side look to good. Some of the posts on here from people cllaiming to be farmers certainly don't paint them in a great light and conform to worse stereotype, the same for those that claim to be vegan.

    I appreciate the points of view above and your previous career sounded both incredibly mentally and physically tough.

    With regard to those who attack others I do believe however there are some basic differences between criminality committed against a person who is in a criminals way etc - on one hand and orchestrated online campaigns of hated against individuals - on the other. The later in this case fall into the category of extremists who choose to threaten death and other punishments against others for what in effect amounts to a difference in belief.

    I believe those extremists no matter of what variety are truly effective in bringing out the worse in otherwise normal people who most likely would never abuse or threaten others.

    That said I was pleasantly surprised by this thread inasmuch in the greater part it has been level headed and to my knowledge no bans or infractions have been flagged. So far so good.

    However I did feel compelled to state earlier in the thread that in my opinon a debate / exchange of points of view was generally good idea as long as the exchange / debate stayed civilised and insults etc were not exchanged. This followed a number of comments which were personal in nature regarding posters intelligence and etc.

    As anonymous posters I believe we have to take it on good faith that those posting as vegans or farmers are who they say they are unless there is evidence to the contrary. Otherwise I believe that would constitute basic trolling. I get it that people feel passionate about their beliefs however someone elses experience and / or opinion should not necessarily be discounted or discredited just because it does not tally with ones own. Neither does it make the voicing of such views or opinions a wind up as was suggested by one poster. Vegans from time to time turn up in the forestry and farming forum and vice versa - I do would hope that will continue. We may not agree but we can hope to exchange points of view in a relatively civilised manner.


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    #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dakota Dan wrote: »
    Can the world become vegan? Apparently not, well not completely by any means. I think both sides should strike a happy medium and stop the slander.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/gpfarmblog.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/can-the-world-go-vegan-a-studied-viewpoint-re/amp/

    Very difficult given the number of products which use animals in some form or another in their ingediants, but there are those who do and fair play to them. Also not everyone wants to be vegan and why should they if they don't want to.

    It's not to long ago that meat as part of a meal was a once a week event for a lot of Irish people, times change however and will continue to and there should be no acceptance of slander from either side.


    gozunda wrote: »
    I appreciate the points of view above and your previous career sounded both incredibly mentally and physically tough.

    With regard to those who attack others I do believe however there are some basic differences between criminality committed against a person who is in a criminals way - on one hand and orchestrated online campaigns of hated against individuals - on the other. The later obviously fall into the category of extremists who choose to threaten death and other punishments against others for what in effect amounts to a difference in belief.

    I believe those extremists no matter of what variety are truly effective in bringing out the worse in otherwise normal people who most likely would never abuse or threaten others.

    That said I was pleasantly surprised by this thread inasmuch in the greater part it has been level headed and to my knowledge no bans or infractions have been flagged. So far so good.

    However I did feel compelled to state earlier in the thread that in my opinon a debate / exchange of points of view was generally good idea as long as the exchange / debate stayed civilised and insults etc were not exchanged. This followed a number of comments which were personal in nature regarding posters intelligence and etc.

    As anonymous posters I believe we have to take it on good faith that those posting as vegans or farmers are who they say they are unless there is evidence to the contrary. Otherwise I believe that would constitute basic trolling. I get it that people feel passionate about their beliefs however someone elses experience and / or opinion should not necessarily be discounted or discredited just because it does not tally with ones own. Neither does it make the voicing of such views or opinions a wind up as was suggested by one poster. Vegans from time to time turn up in the forestry and farming forum and vice versa - I do would hope that will continue. We may not agree but we can hope to exchange points of view in a relatively civilised manner.

    Civil debate with extremists is like peeing into the wind, they just drive away stable people from what ever they are shouting about, and even turn on those that are on the same side because they don't agree 100% with what they say.

    Trolls are just a waste of time and bandwidth but some people just can't help feeding them.

    Most topics on here result in good debate, but anything relating to social issues quickly descends to utter farce, spite and displays of utter ignorance. Even something like the rural broadband thread has some evidence of this; This thread hasn't descended so far and I hope it doesn't.

    In relation to organised attacks on social media, unfortuately this is one of the sides of such technology that can be experienced by anyone and it's a nasty thing for someone to have to go through.
    The advice I give anyone who wants to use any form of social media is to ask yourself would I tell a stranger on the street the same thing that I'm about to post and to manage the filters of what ever technology they are using.


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    #77
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Civil debate with extremists is like peeing into the wind, they just drive away stable people from what ever they are shouting about, and even turn on those that are on the same side because they don't agree 100% with what they say.

    Would agree with that sentiment - however that is not what I was describing. Mr Carbstong unfortunately has blind followers and adherents who have taken him literally and are apparently following his lead.
    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Trolls are just a waste of time and bandwidth but some people just can't help feeding them.

    A sentiment I've seen repeated often on Boards. But as I stated I do believe there are any deliberate trolls involved here.
    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Most topics on here result in good debate, but anything relating to social issues quickly descends to utter farce, spite and displays of utter ignorance. Even something like the rural broadband thread has some evidence of this; This thread hasn't descended so far and I hope it doesn't.

    Agree with that.
    DubInMeath wrote: »
    In relation to organised attacks on social media, unfortuately this is one of the sides of such technology that can be experienced by anyone and it's a nasty thing for someone to have to go through.
    The advice I give anyone who wants to use any form of social media is to ask yourself would I tell a stranger on the street the same thing that I'm about to post and to manage the filters of what ever technology they are using.

    Fair enough but I would also like to see some useful preventative or at least punitive measures for those that think its ok to use social media to attack others whatever their given reasons or otherwise


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