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I evicted my lodger

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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,956 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    I have a friend who has a template for his lodgers.

    Something along the lines of....

    Lodger name, Landlord name. And a few rules about people staying over etc. + deposit amount.

    Plus....

    As a lodger in my home you have NO rights under the RTB and can be evicted with one weeks notice, which is the way you pay your rent to me.

    Both sign. done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Sworn testimony on both sides and the homeowner could of course counter sue assuming he knew how to file etc. correctly. I assume and am open to correction there would need to be further evidence of rent owed on that side though.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but is it not the case that the judge can assume that if the licensee made an initial payment Of rent (as in this case) that an arrangement had been made that rent was due in return for the room, ( the op has proof of this I’m sure ) then it would be up to the licensee to prove (bank statements, receipts, Cheque stubs etc) that he had paid rent?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but is it not the case that the judge can assume that if the licensee made an initial payment Of rent (as in this case) that an arrangement had been made that rent was due in return for the room, ( the op has proof of this I’m sure ) then it would be up to the licensee to prove (bank statements, receipts, Cheque stubs etc) that he had paid rent?

    LL is countersuing so it would be up to him to put it forward but you're assuming the tenant is going to contest it. It could be the tenant can show damage in excess of the rent or is simply doing it to be bloody minded - which would be the only real reason to do this.

    The point though isn't the nuanced court process its that licensees have a right to reasonable notice, that right is strongly suggested by case law and all of the various advice sites etc. Given it's a common law rule who know what could happen on the day but as it stands one has to assume reasonable notice is required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭Aye Bosun


    LL is countersuing so it would be up to him to put it forward but you're assuming the tenant is going to contest it. It could be the tenant can show damage in excess of the rent or is simply doing it to be bloody minded - which would be the only real reason to do this.

    The point though isn't the nuanced court process its that licensees have a right to reasonable notice, that right is strongly suggested by case law and all of the various advice sites etc. Given it's a common law rule who know what could happen on the day but as it stands one has to assume reasonable notice is required.

    In this case reasonable notice had been issued. 2 weeks for non payment of rent over 4 months.

    In all cases reasonable notice has not been defined anywhere in law and is subject to interpretation. For example if a licensee becomes violent in my home, reasonable notice is the 2 minutes it takes me to throw them out the front door and lock it. On the other hand if I need a licensee to vacate for whatever reason, reasonable notice should be in line with rent payments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Aye Bosun wrote: »
    In this case reasonable notice had been issued. 2 weeks for non payment of rent over 4 months.

    In all cases reasonable notice has not been defined anywhere in law and is subject to interpretation. For example if a licensee becomes violent in my home, reasonable notice is the 2 minutes it takes me to throw them out the front door and lock it. On the other hand if I need a licensee to vacate for whatever reason, reasonable notice should be in line with rent payments.

    There's no suggestion it needs to be inline with rental payments. It certainly doesn't need to be that long. I'm also well aware reasonable notice was issued here so I'm not quite sure what your point is?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36 gark


    Update:

    Received an email from RTB looking for my current address.
    I will cooperate with them in order to close this issue ASAP.

    But how was he even able to open a dispute case?
    Did he forget to mention that he was a lodger?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,117 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    gark wrote: »
    Update:

    Received an email from RTB looking for my current address.
    I will cooperate with them in order to close this issue ASAP.

    But how was he even able to open a dispute case?
    Did he forget to mention that he was a lodger?

    Would they not have your address from the evicted tenant, I’d ring them wouldn’t be handing details over until you speak to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36 gark


    pc7 wrote: »
    Would they not have your address from the evicted tenant, I’d ring them wouldn’t be handing details over until you speak to them.

    They do have the address, they want to confirm if it's my current address.

    "
    Cam you please confirm your current address, in order for the documentation to be issued to you?

    Please respond to this email by close of business on 22/02/2018 or we will have to conduct our own searches to obtain your address.
    "


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,715 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I would email them back telling them that the case with your lodger is not of their concern and you won't be dealing with them directly.


    Out of curiosity, was it a digitally signed email? If not, then definitley bugger off!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36 gark


    kbannon wrote: »
    I would email them back telling them that the case with your lodger is not of their concern and you won't be dealing with them directly.


    Out of curiosity, was it a digitally signed email? If not, then definitley bugger off!

    It was not.

    I could certainly ignore them, but then they would keep sending me emails (and letters after a while).
    And I just want to forget this guy and everything related.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    gark wrote: »
    Update:

    Received an email from RTB looking for my current address.

    I will cooperate with them in order to close this issue ASAP.

    But how was he even able to open a dispute case?
    Did he forget to mention that he was a lodger?

    Tread very carefully. If you do co-operate with them then you may be seen as accepting that you were in a landlord-tenant relationship.

    By all means reply to them confirming your address but be sure to point out in your reply that as you have never been a landlord and have never had any tenants you have absolutely no idea why they have contacted you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36 gark


    Squatter wrote: »
    Tread very carefully. If you do co-operate with them then you may be seen as accepting that you were in a landlord-tenant relationship.

    By all means reply to them confirming your address but be sure to point out in your reply that as you have never been a landlord and have never had any tenants you have absolutely no idea why they have contacted you.

    I'm planning to refer to their website:

    "
    Are there any categories of Landlord and Tenant case that the RTB cannot hear?
    Yes. The RTB do not have jurisdiction to deal with disputes in the following circumstances:

    In respect of a dispute where landlord also resides in the dwelling (Rent a Room Scheme)
    "


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    kbannon wrote: »
    I would email them back telling them that the case with your lodger is not of their concern and you won't be dealing with them directly.


    Out of curiosity, was it a digitally signed email? If not, then definitley bugger off!

    That would be extremely foolish. They would go on to hold a hearing and in the event the claimant's evidence is uncontested, make an order against the other party. The claimant could then go to the Circuit Court to enforce the order.
    The RTB don't know until there is evidence heard, that it is a lodger situation and not a tenancy. The o/p should submit documentation showing that he lives in the dwelling and that the Act does not apply and then go to any adjudication hearing to back up his side of the story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    Mod
    Recommend that OP get own legal advice.
    Subject to that leaving open for general discussion


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    How true is the statement on Thresholds website regarding HAP
    https://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/housing-assistance-payment-hap/
    In order for you to apply for HAP the landlord wil have to:

    Complete the HAP application form
    The property will have to be inspected within 8 months to ensure it meets minimum standards
    The landlord will have to provide a tax compliance form
    Under HAP the normal landlord and tenant laws apply so, if you have a problem which you cannot resolve informally, you may be able to refer a dispute to the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB).

    Could this also be the reason why the OP never received any payments? Could this also be the reason why Threshold and the evicted believe it to have been an illegal eviction?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    This post has been deleted.

    http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf

    Not entirely convinced they are wrong as section 3 sub section 7 and section 7 both make reference to the RTB and RTA2004.

    It looks to me as there is room (no pun intended) for misunderstanding somewhere given that the OP states the tenant was HAP


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf

    Not entirely convinced they are wrong as section 3 sub section 7 and section 7 both make reference to the RTB and RTA2004.

    It looks to me as there is room (no pun intended) for misunderstanding somewhere given that the OP states the tenant was HAP

    The RTA itself states that it only applies to dwellings subject to a lease and also does not apply to dwellings in which the landlord also resides.The HAP scheme cannot rewrite leglislation to cover all of its tenancies. THe RTB can only exercise the jurisdiction which it has under the RTA.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Spook_ie wrote:
    Could this also be the reason why the OP never received any payments? Could this also be the reason why Threshold and the evicted believe it to have been an illegal eviction?


    HAP is a payment scheme. It doesn't supercede existing laws around licencees. In particular a landlord living in his own home has very strong constitutional protections.

    Threshold are well known for illegally advising tenants to overhold.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    No I'm not saying that HAP overwrites anything, what I am saying is that could the evicted tenant and Threshold be working under the assumption that if you are HAP then you are an RTA(2004) and subject to RTB because the HAP site say so.

    I would love to see a copy of the landlords section of the HAP agreement if anyone has one they can upload or a link to one.

    As they say often the devil is in the detail, because AFAICS they shouldn't have been able to complete the HAPs form


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    No I'm not saying that HAP overwrites anything, what I am saying is that could the evicted tenant and Threshold be working under the assumption that if you are HAP then you are an RTA(2004) and subject to RTB because the HAP site say so.

    I would love to see a copy of the landlords section of the HAP agreement if anyone has one they can upload or a link to one.

    As they say often the devil is in the detail, because AFAICS they shouldn't have been able to complete the HAPs form

    Once a complaint comes to the RTB they investigate. They don't work under assumptions. There is a complaint and each party has their say. They then make a finding. When the situation is explained the RTB can and sometimes does, refuse jurisdiction. Parties can't contract out of the RTA but neither can they contract in. The RTB can only deal with tenancies catered for the RTA or any other legislation which gives powers to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2 len4o


    We got a lodger for a first time two weeks ago. She is on HAP and I and my husband felt sorry for her as she is in her 60s. She was meant to move in from 15th of Feb but she asked for a key to start slowly bring her stuff as her car is small. We gave her a key in the beginning of Feb and she started coming in the weekends to bring luggage. Then one day she dropped by unannounced during the week. My husband was in shock as there was a week until she was meant to move in. I called her from work and asked her to let us know first before she decides to drop by. She said that since the room is empty, she will move in before the 15th, to which I said no. Still, we gave her the benefit of the doubt and she moved as agreed. She is renting a double room with a big wardrobe. She said there wasn't enough storage and brought an extra wardrobe. Still, as she has the room full with boxes, she asked to put a massage chair in he living. I said no. She asked my husband then and said it was temporary until she gets extra storage in her own room. A week later I told her that she needs to take the chair away and brought it for her beside her door. The chair is still in the corridor despite me asking every day why she doesn't bring it in the room. She also insists on more room in the kitchen and claims that I have to give her room in the living as well... for the chair. I gave her few shelves in the kitchen, let her bring a bedroom locker so that she has more storage and got her a separate fridge. She keeps however putting stuff together with ours and every day I find new item stuck in our storage places. I still feel sorry for her as she is not young but she keeps annoying me. I come back from work and she is constantly asking me to do this or that for her. I want her to leave. She paid herself for the first two weeks in arrears and paid the deposit a week afer she moved and after I asked four times, but she gave our details to the Social welfare for HAP payments. How do I tell her to go? And how do I cancel the HAP payments before they have started. And what period should the notice be so that it does not look like throwing her out? A month?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    len4o wrote: »
    We got a lodger for a first time two weeks ago. She is on HAP and I and my husband felt sorry for her as she is in her 60s. She was meant to move in from 15th of Feb but she asked for a key to start slowly bring her stuff as her car is small.

    We gave her a key in the beginning of Feb and she started coming in the weekends to bring luggage. Then one day she dropped by unannounced during the week. My husband was in shock as there was a week until she was meant to move in. I called her from work and asked her to let us know first before she decides to drop by.

    She said that since the room is empty, she will move in before the 15th, to which I said no. Still, we gave her the benefit of the doubt and she moved as agreed. She is renting a double room with a big wardrobe. She said there wasn't enough storage and brought an extra wardrobe. Still, as she has the room full with boxes, she asked to put a massage chair in he living. I said no.

    She asked my husband then and said it was temporary until she gets extra storage in her own room. A week later I told her that she needs to take the chair away and brought it for her beside her door. The chair is still in the corridor despite me asking every day why she doesn't bring it in the room.

    She also insists on more room in the kitchen and claims that I have to give her room in the living as well... for the chair. I gave her few shelves in the kitchen, let her bring a bedroom locker so that she has more storage and got her a separate fridge. She keeps however putting stuff together with ours and every day I find new item stuck in our storage places.

    I still feel sorry for her as she is not young but she keeps annoying me. I come back from work and she is constantly asking me to do this or that for her. I want her to leave. She paid herself for the first two weeks in arrears and paid the deposit a week afer she moved and after I asked four times, but she gave our details to the Social welfare for HAP payments. How do I tell her to go? And how do I cancel the HAP payments before they have started. And what period should the notice be so that it does not look like throwing her out? A month?

    You don't even need to give her a month, a couple of weeks will more than suffice. It would be nice to give her a month but I wouldn't expect to be paid frankly. You should of course be paid but I'm just being realistic between HAP etc.


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