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  • Ken Norton wrote: »
    Agassi beat Federer in 1998, 2001 and 2002. Then Federer won the next 8 encounters in a row from 2003 to 2005.

    That's my point, Agassi and Sampras were ending their careers, after dominating, then Federer had no one in his way and picked up a lot of titles

  • Just think... the brits tried to include murray in a "big 4"!!!

    Like comparing paul lawrie to jack nicklaus!

    Well not quite, but he did hold the number 1 ranking in the world at a time when the other 3 were well in the peak of their careers and he was well able to beat any of them for a few years. At that time, they definitely were the big 4.

    It'd be more like Faldo to Nicklaus

  • Ken Norton wrote: »
    They're all capable of beating each other as is evident below with Djokovic being bageled by Federer at the Cinicinatti Open.

    Fed hasn't been capable of beating Djokovic for the last 9 years

    (Wimbledon 2012 was the last time he managed any sort of result against him)

    and in slams overall Djokovic has mangled him 11 to 6 - a pretty sorry tale.

    close enough to 2 to 1 for most people!

    Could get embarrassing if they are set to meet at Wimbledon this year

    I couldn't see Djokovic taking pity on the big fake - might get messy and force Fed to tilt completely.

    Maybe he will pull out a round in advance so he won't have to face him like he did in France?!

  • Spotcurve wrote: »
    You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Federer, not sure why that is.

    Federer had a winning head to head against Djokovic until he entered his thirties, when Djokovic began beating him regularly. That's the normal order of things, the next generation comes along and bests the aging and declining generation. Djokovic and Nadal have been fortunate that they haven't had a younger generation to contend with that was a credible threat.

    There's nothing embarrassing about a 39 year old losing a grandslam tennis match, the fact he can still compete at that age is another feather in his cap. When Federer beat 29 year old Pete Sampras at Wimbledon in 2001, it wasn't embarrassing for Sampras, it's the normal order. He was old and well past his best and close to retirement. You can't conclude from that match that Federer is better than Sampras.

    It’s kind of funny when we talk about the norm of players losing around 29.

    When you think either Djokovic (34), Nadal (35) and Federer (39) have won all but 1 of the grand slams in the last 5 years.

    Some ridiculous longevity.

  • Laver retired at 41, after a 23 year career.

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  • One of the other GOAT-related metrics that's less commonly used but nevertheless interesting, is the number of singles titles won.

    I can't see where Federer is going to get another 6 titles to catch Jimmy Connors.
    Nadal might catch Lendl, but won't catch Federer.
    Djokovic could catch Federer, but having said he'll concentrate on the slams from now on, I can't see him taking part in enough tournaments.
    Maybe if he gets to 21 GS titles, he'll change.

    Very similar for matches won, although I can see Federer catching Connors here if he wanted to hang around long enough.
    Nadal has a slightly better win percentage than Djokovic, but that could change in the next few weeks.

  • The highest peak of tennis level attained is Roger Federer in 2006 in my opinion, followed closely by Djokovic in 2011.

    The below clips shows highlights of the 2006 Us Open match between Federer and Davydenko. It's very easy to forget how good Federer was back then. His speed around the court, his power and accuracy, incredible. And that's while he handicapped himself with a 90 square inch Racquet. Imagine if he had the 97 square inch Racquet, he could well have beaten Nadal at the French.

  • When you're supposed to be the GOAT but everyone else has more Olympic medals than you do.

  • Murray was quite clearly part of a big 4 for a few years, anyone who said he wasn't id assume has followed tennis much.

  • Well, they are all on 20, next year I find it hard to believe Djokovic can win the AO - the new lads are really coming through ... Alcaraz, Brooksby, Sinner , as well as the current guys , Medvedev,Zverev etc..

    Ironically Nadal now has the best chance of hitting 21 in the French !

    mad stuff

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  • Wimbledon is the biggest gimme for Djokovic now, not Australia.

    He might even overtake Woger there.

    Probably will at least tie him on 8.

    None of the younger guys are much good there yet and Covid took away almost 2 years of their grass court development with such a short season.

    An AO is not out of the question tho!

  • It's only a matter of time before Djokovic gets to 21 and probably more, Nadal of course could wiln a FO or two yet, depending on his fitness, he seems to have almost given up on the other slams in the hope of staying reasonably fit for the FO. It's doubtful if Federer will even return again, probably targeting a farewell at Wimbledon, but, realistically not a hope of winning it.

    They could all yet finish on 20, which would actually be quite fitting, but, I think Federer stays on 20, Nadal might make it to 21 and Djokovic 22/23 depending how his fitness holds.

    Right now Djokovic and Federer have the same record in slam finals 20/31 with Nadal 20/28. Nadal's ridiculous record at the FO kinda tilts things here.

    Djokovic has now lost to 5 different players in slam finals- Nadal, Federer, Murray, Wawrinka and now Medvedev.

    Nadal has lost to 3 different players- Djokovic, Federer and Wawrinka. Federer also lost to 3 different players- Djokovic, Nadal and Del Potro.

    All 3 would probably have completed a calendar slam at some stage in their career had all three not come along at more or less the same time. The irony is an inferior player in the future could well do it simply because the level of opposition won't be as high.

    They have given us a golden age of tennis by pushing each other. It's coming towards an end as their careers are ending / coming towards an end.

  • On the H2H point from the US Open thread.

    Where there's enough of an overlap of playing years to be worth of consideration, does H2H usually favour the younger player?

    My thinking is that players' rises to their peak years are steeper than their declines where they keep playing, hoping for the odd title here and there.

    Eg. Djokovic vs Federer. Djokovic has had more years playing against non-peak, old man Federer, than Federer had playing against non-peak, kiddo Djokovic,

  • Not entirely sure how the ATP points will work for the rest of the year, but Djokovic will likely have to play a bit to hold onto No 1 till the end of the year.

    It would be his 7th and would put him out on his own ahead of Sampras (Fedal have 5 each).

    Medvedev is around 1k points behind at present but he won the last couple of tournaments of 2020 so might not be able to make up too much ground. Zverev isn't too far away either and if he has a good run he could possibly end up no 1.

  • From what I read, Djokovic is dropping 2170 points between now and the year end but Medvedev is dropping 3840.

    Zverev is 4,370 points behind at the moment, don't know how many points he's dropping, but it seems like a big ask for him.

    I think Federer and Nadal will slip down further with their 2019 points not being counted and it's unlikely Federer will finish a 19th year as a top 10 player.

  • It's easier just to to check the ATP race to Turin which shows current year points.

    Player with most points at the end of the year will be world number 1 - simple.

    Djokovic is currently down to play Indian Wells in October. He might play The Paris Masters and will surely play the ATP finals to ensure that he ends up No.1 to have the outright year-end number ones of 7.

    Unless he decides to take the rest of the year off and sod the world number 1 accolade!