Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

We can already do peer to peer transactions. What banks provide is insurance so that you are not left holding the bag when things go wrong. That's a service that I willing pay for, and it's why I'll use Paypal or VISA when paying for something on the internet, rather than wiring Ether or Bitcoin to an anonymous wallet and hoping for the best.

How do you mean, hoping for the best? Money is transferred from one crypto wallet to another - simples.

Anthracite

grindle wrote: »

Typical old-guard speaking about it - where have you been?

This is a 'wealth advisor' expressing an opinion. I was speaking to my wealth advisor on Thursday, he had opinions too.

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

How do you mean, hoping for the best? Money is transferred from one crypto wallet to another - simples.

And what if the person you are paying on the other end stiffs you for what you bought? What if they were selling a non-existent product under a fake name on Ebay?

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

And what if the person you are paying on the other end stiffs you for what you bought? What if they were selling a non-existent product under a fake name on Ebay?

Bank transfers account for a substantial amount of money transfer. One way or another, you pay for bank transfers. They are not 'insured' in the way that you describe. Bitcoin can be sent via escrow systems - there's your peace of mind.

grindle

Anthracite wrote: »

This is a 'wealth advisor' expressing an opinion. I was speaking to my wealth advisor on Thursday, he had opinions too.

It's not just one person's opinion though - I've been watching this news flow for years and banks have been sketchy for years. Maybe the tide turns and they spot how to gain moments of control in this situation but Jamie Dimon trashing cryptos is not the first instance of it.

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

Bank transfers account for a substantial amount of money transfer. One way or another, you pay for bank transfers. They are not 'insured' in the way that you describe. Bitcoin can be sent via escrow systems - there's your peace of mind.

I referred to VISA and Paypal, not bank transfers. I'm aware of what I'm paying for, and I welcome any competition that reduces supernormal profits, but I'm not blind to the services that I am getting from the likes of VISA either.

Again, excuse my ignorance - is there a crypto escrow service that will investigate disputes to ensure funds/goods are returned to the innocent party?

MIN2511

So another dip... sigh

Fighting Tao

MIN2511 wrote: »

So another dip... sigh

When? I wouldn't really call the following 24 hour losses a dip.
Bitcoin -0.64%
Ethereum -2.15%
Litecoin -2.29%

Fighting Tao

Anthracite wrote: »

I referred to VISA and Paypal, not bank transfers. I'm aware of what I'm paying for, and I welcome any competition that reduces supernormal profits, but I'm not blind to the services that I am getting from the likes of VISA either.

Again, excuse my ignorance - is there a crypto escrow service that will investigate disputes to ensure funds/goods are returned to the innocent party?

Seriously, do some of your own research about blockchain and what can and can't be done at the moment. When you understand blockchain then think about what could be done in the future. The possibilities are gigantic. They will change the way many things are currently done.

Mahogany Gaspipe

Interesting reading this thread.

My opinion is that the entire market is a over valued.
Yes the underlying technology is brilliant and will form the basic ingredients of a new financial paradigm but it is naive to pin you colours to any brand of coin at this frontier stage.
Extensive adaption of blockchain/cryptocurreny is what will be wrote into the history books in years to come and this is years away. Price speculation relating to individual coins is just that.
Whether it be BTC, LTC or ETH, buying those coins is like backing a horse to win the 2030 Grand National, take a minute to think about that.
I like to use the analogy of the Motor Car. The car has been invited but no paved roads exist or will for many years.

I bought into the market a year ago. I have recently sold all my positions and realised profit. None of that profit can be attributed the performance of cryptocurrency in terms of their Practical Use.
That said there will be more profit to be made in this phase; and equal losses chalked down.

lifeandtimes

Anthracite wrote: »

Again, excuse my ignorance - is there a crypto escrow service that will investigate disputes to ensure funds/goods are returned to the innocent party?

As fighting tao please do your own research

There's a blockchain with a ledger, every transaction is lodged.

But if for whatever reason you don't trust someone them don't send the crypto

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

I referred to VISA and Paypal, not bank transfers.

Indeed you did - and I covered your point with regard to Visa/Paypal. I offered additional info by way of the bank transfer example - that clearly demonstrates that something that currently is processed via a bank could just as easily be processed via the blockchain of a crypto.

Anthracite wrote: »

Again, excuse my ignorance - is there a crypto escrow service that will investigate disputes to ensure funds/goods are returned to the innocent party?

It's been quite a while since I used such a service - any of the last transactions I carried out when paying for goods/services with crypto have been on a trust basis - I made a calculated decision simply to send the coin on the basis that I trusted the other party.

That said, a quick google provides this =>

https://bitspend.net/escrow/

Now, I don't know the first thing about the service offered - but it's of no consequence if they offer a decent service or not. The bottom line is that yes, it's possible to offer payment via crypto in tandem with an escrow service that offers dispute resolution. Naturally, they will have to charge a fee for same...but getting back to the original point, it demonstrates that crypto offers another payment channel.

drunkmonkey

Why are litecoin and bitcoin cash holding better than bitcoin and Etherum seems to be that way since the last dip

makeorbrake

Mahogany Gaspipe wrote: »

it is naive to pin you colours to any brand of coin at this frontier stage.

I would imagine that the vast majority following this discussion don't presume to know which crypto will win out.

Mahogany Gaspipe wrote: »

I have recently sold all my positions and realised profit. None of that profit can be attributed the performance of cryptocurrency in terms of their Practical Use.

Again, I agree - I did the same. The technology is unfinished and so the speculation is in terms of it's future usefulness and practical use. That may or may not be realised.

Anthracite

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Seriously, do some of your own research about blockchain and what can and can't be done at the moment. When you understand blockchain then think about what could be done in the future. The possibilities are gigantic. They will change the way many things are currently done.

If one existed, I think you would have named it. So there is currently no useful escrow service for crypto that works like VISA or Paypal.

For the record, I have a good understanding of the blockchain - it's hardly rocket science. And, for the umpteenth time, it's entirely possible for blockchain tech to be revolutionary and cryptocurrency to be worthless at the same time.

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

If one existed, I think you would have named it. So there is currently no useful escrow service for crypto that works like VISA or Paypal.

Huh? I provided you with a url link to exactly such a service. I have not used them, perhaps they don't deliver a good service - I've no idea. However, it doesn't matter. The bottom line here is that such a service can clearly be provided if there's a need for it....ergo, if enough people adopt crypto, then someone will run such a service.

grindle

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why are litecoin and bitcoin cash holding better than bitcoin and Etherum seems to be that way since the last dip

LTC went down a HUGE amount from when Charlie sold his coins, it's not fair to compare dips from Jan 9th because that community has a tremendous amount of speculation built in even before that fact (re:unofficial second fiddle to BTC - the BTC devs HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE LTC and every other altcoin).

BCH - hard to tell. There are so many holders of BCH who have made so much money on both sides of that fence where you really don't know who's gaming who.

Either way - more buyers than sellers is correct.

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

Huh? I provided you with a url link to exactly such a service. I have not used them, perhaps they don't deliver a good service - I've no idea. However, it doesn't matter. The bottom line here is that such a service can clearly be provided if there's a need for it....ergo, if enough people adopt crypto, then someone will run such a service.

Did you actually check out the site you linked? It looks like somebody's transition year project. There is no service on offer as far as I can tell - and would you send money to these guys? :eek:

I recommend you use an escrow service if you do...

Shauny2010

I don't see Bitcoin as a threat to Banks. It will eventually become the reserve currency of the world which Banks will adopt and use. This argument that its cryptos verses banks is the wrong one. It's a battle between Fiat Cash and cryptos.
Visa will eventually adopt cryptos, so you will pay for goods via Visa for a small fee so you get their security, but the transaction will be done in crypto.
If I was to pay for my lunch then I would be happy to use one of the faster Altcoins. To pay for a Car or a large asset purchase then it would be Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash, all via your Visa card if you choose.

Anthracite

Shauny2010 wrote: »

I don't see Bitcoin as a threat to Banks. It will eventually become the reserve currency of the world which Banks will adopt and use. This argument that its cryptos verses banks is the wrong one. It's a battle between Fiat Cash and cryptos.
Visa will eventually adopt cryptos, so you will pay for goods via Visa for a small fee so you get their security, but the transaction will be done in crypto.
If I was to pay for my lunch then I would be happy to use one of the faster Altcoins. To pay for a Car or a large asset purchase then it would be Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash, all via your Visa card if you choose.

You'd have keep well up on the exchange rates of all the coins on an instantaneous basis, I guess?

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

Did you actually check out the site you linked? It looks like somebody's transition year project. There is no service on offer as far as I can tell - and would you send money to these guys? :eek:

I recommend you use an escrow service if you do...

There's a theme running through many of the arguments made for those that hold a contrarian view to the viability of crypto. It's that there's an expectation that whatever state that the various crypto's are in right now - and their ecosystems - is all that needs to be considered. There's no acknowledgement of the fact that none of these technologies are as yet mature. There's no acknowledgement that the frameworks (regulation, etc.) in which they operate are far from complete. They're incomplete - a work in progress.

So, you're not impressed - that doesn't detract from my point. The point here is that I've proven to you that yes, a payment can be made over crypto which would match the service offered by visa or paypal in terms of the peace of mind re. actual receipt of goods/services.

On a very basic level, you can organise this yourself. If you agree a third party with the seller, that third party can 'sign' the transaction - and ONLY then are the funds transferred. Google 'multisig' + 'bitcoin'. That doesn't cost anything. It's a couple of years ago, that I trialled that myself - at the suggestion of someone here on boards.ie . Works seamlessly.

As regards trust, of course there would be an issue. This is where regulation could stand to be a very positive thing. It's the same situation with a crypto escrow service as it is with a crypto exchange in terms of trust.

Shauny2010

makeorbrake wrote: »

As regards trust, of course there would be an issue. This is where regulation could stand to be a very positive thing. It's the same situation with a crypto escrow service as it is with a crypto exchange in terms of trust.

I do Trust the Bitcoin network. You don`t need a bank to verify that the funds are in place, the network does that for you.
As for other types of payments, ie for goods etc,
Would you pay for goods by sending cash in the post? Would you trust the cash itself to make people honest?
Paypal, Visa etc are services different to the underlying Fiat they use. they could just as easily use Bitcoin or an Altcoin as the settlement currency

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

There's a theme running through many of the arguments made for those that hold a contrarian view to the viability of crypto. It's that there's an expectation that whatever state that the various crypto's are in right now - and their ecosystems - is all that needs to be considered. There's no acknowledgement of the fact that none of these technologies are as yet mature. There's no acknowledgement that the frameworks (regulation, etc.) in which they operate are far from complete. They're incomplete - a work in progress.

I take your point - the question is whether they can mature or mutate fast enough to compete with the payment services that already have massive buy-in and are backed by massive investment. It's certainly not impossible that they could.

makeorbrake wrote: »

So, you're not impressed - that doesn't detract from my point. The point here is that I've proven to you that yes, a payment can be made over crypto which would match the service offered by visa or paypal in terms of the peace of mind re. actual receipt of goods/services.

But I checked the site: there is no service offered! It just talks about such a service.

makeorbrake wrote: »

On a very basic level, you can organise this yourself. If you agree a third party with the seller, that third party can 'sign' the transaction - and ONLY then are the funds transferred. Google 'multisig' + 'bitcoin'. That doesn't cost anything. It's a couple of years ago, that I trialled that myself - at the suggestion of someone here on boards.ie . Works seamlessly.

You don't need me to point out that this is totally impractical for most purposes.

But I totally accept your first point: the ecosystem is not yet developed. It may develop yet. What that says about the value of current crypto remains to be seen.

makeorbrake

Shauny2010 wrote: »

I do Trust the Bitcoin network. You don`t need a bank to verify that the funds are in place, the network does that for you.
As for other types of payments, ie for goods etc,

I wasn't talking about 'trust' in terms of the blockchain. I was addressing Anthracite's point with regard to having to trust a bitcoin escrow service.

Shauny2010 wrote: »

Would you pay for goods by sending cash in the post? Would you trust the cash itself to make people honest?
Paypal, Visa etc are services different to the underlying Fiat they use. they could just as easily use Bitcoin or an Altcoin as the settlement currency

I in no way disagreed with either of you in that respect. i.e. where funds would be placed with a third party escrow service that's unregulated. However, to my point - this can be achieved if such a service is regulated properly in the future.

Now, I gave the example of multi-sig transactions - and I've completely forgot that this means that you don't have to trust that third party. Through multi-sig, a bitcoin escrow service can operate without ever having their mits on the BTC.

Here's one that does exactly that =>
https://www.bitrated.com/

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

I take your point - the question is whether they can mature or mutate fast enough to compete with the payment services that already have massive buy-in and are backed by massive investment. It's certainly not impossible that they could.

Agree completely - and of course there are other factors at play in all of this. If we are to think in terms of bitcoin, it's currently hit a scaling issue - so until it overcomes that, other related services will be slow to come through.

Anthracite wrote: »

But I checked the site: there is no service offered! It just talks about such a service.

No problem - point taken - and as I outlined, I simply dug that up by way of a google search. There are rudimentary escrow services available. Can you have trust in them - not particularly (perhaps you could if appropriately regulated). However, the example I have just given above - whereby the escrow agent uses multi-sig and doesn't have direct control over the BTC takes most of the risk out of it.
The other point I was making here is that it's been trialled and it can be provided. It just needs to be scaled up and provided at a completely professional level.

Anthracite wrote: »

You don't need me to point out that this is totally impractical for most purposes. But I totally accept your first point: the ecosystem is not yet developed. It may develop yet. What that says about the value of current crypto remains to be seen.

I wasn't suggesting it was completely practical - so no problem in you pointing that out. It just shows that conceptually, it's possible. However, as per the other link, multi-sig is relevant as an escrow service can use it without any chance of them pinching your btc.


EDIT (and just looking beyond small transactions, by all accounts smart contracting can be brought into play such that it automatically triggers payment when certain conditions are met. Apparently, other crypto's (eg. ethereum) are better placed to cater for this). There would be no third party involved in the actual execution so there would be no trust issue).

The Oort Cloud

Not worried now at this time with the new news from Irish banks and government, as they say that they are just monitoring the crypto sphere. Nothing to be worried about in Ireland yet.

IRISH BANKS ARE monitoring the purchases of bitcoin, but none have any plans to impose restrictions on their sales as has been done in the UK.

But despite concerns in the UK, Irish banks aren’t taking moves to restrict the purchase of bitcoin, but say they continue to monitor the situation.
One Irish bank said that the number of transactions it sees for bitcoin appears to be very small. Permanent TSB did not respond to a request for comment.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-banks-bitcoin-credit-card-ban-3841612-Feb2018/

Fighting Tao

Anthracite wrote: »

If one existed, I think you would have named it. So there is currently no useful escrow service for crypto that works like VISA or Paypal.

Nope, I wouldn't have. Not to you anyway. However, if you look at the jobs in MasterCards Dublin office, you will see that they are looking for people to work on blockchain. Looks like they see the future that you appear to think won’t happen.

moonandstars

This is the best time to buy. The dips bring massive opportunity!

Anthracite

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Nope, I wouldn't have. Not to you anyway.

This is what you are up against.

lifeandtimes

For anyone worried about losing money in crypto, if there's a market for it, someone will fill it

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2018/02/01/479202.htm

Insurance companies will be looking to offer protection