Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

papu

kaymin wrote: »

New joiners to Bitcoin pay old 'members' of Bitcoin for their coins - i.e. older users are funded with this new money. Profits will only be generated if new buyers can be found willing to buy at higher prices. Yes, it is a Ponzi / Pyramid scheme.

You're so misinformed it hurts. Final response from me.

The price of Bitcoin is directly correlated to its scarcity and demand. The demand is not forced on others, nor do Bitcoin’s biggest proponents go around asking people for money and telling them to invest more into Bitcoin.
New “investors” who are in it to get-rich-quick are actually the weakest hands. They will dump their Bitcoins at a loss with the slightest sign of a downturn in price.
The "old members" are actually people who won't sell, because they believe in the technology.

tcawley29

Apologies to mods if this is not allowed here but would any boardsies be on for organizing our own little pump and dump?

kaymin

papu wrote: »

You're so misinformed it hurts. Final response from me.

The price of Bitcoin is directly correlated to its scarcity and demand. The demand is not forced on others, nor do Bitcoin’s biggest proponents go around asking people for money and telling them to invest more into Bitcoin.
New “investors” who are in it to get-rich-quick are actually the weakest hands. They will dump their Bitcoins at a loss with the slightest sign of a downturn in price.
The "old members" are actually people who won't sell, because they believe in the technology.

You are stating the obvious. Price is determined by supply / demand. Newest investors are most exposed. Did I say otherwise?

As for old members won't sell:
https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/20/16801898/litecoin-founder-divest-conflict-interest

Have you not seen crypto 'experts' predict $1 million dollar price tags for a bitcoin. The sole purpose is to get punters like yourself to handover their FIAT.

You seem both naive and inexperienced.

Whelo79

tcawley29 wrote: »

Apologies to mods if this is not allowed here but would any boardsies be on for organizing our own little pump and dump?

So you are trying to round up a group of people in order to rip off some other unsuspecting investors? Nice!

It's a no from me.

grindle

tcawley29 wrote: »

Apologies to mods if this is not allowed here but would any boardsies be on for organizing our own little pump and dump?

Playing right into the steadfastly ignorant brain of kaymin right there.
Pump'n'dumps are stood right next to BitConnect and ICO exit scams in the "scummy things to do" line-up.
You really should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting it, no joke.

Sleeper12

endacl wrote: »

I don't have a dog in this race, but you're talking out of your hole. You know you can click <unfollow thread> and you can just stop being wrong? It'll just go away.

:pac:

Many financial experts disagree with you https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/06/bitcoin-and-cryptocurrencies-are-ponzi-bubbles-says-bis.html

Bob24

alb wrote: »

Bitcoin can also have use, you can use it as a payment mechanism, you can use it to move value globally. You can use it for multi-signature wallets, time locked transactions etc. It is the *only* way you can donate money to wikileaks.

But none of these are giving a bitcoin an intrinsic value for what it is similarly to what I mentioned for gold, collectibles or domain names - they are all about using bitcoin as a conduit (and lets be honest only a tiny minority of bitcoins would be used in these ways).

Currently it is almost exclusively used as a storage of value and a speculative asset.

grindle

Bob24 wrote: »

Currently it is almost exclusively used as a storage of value and a speculative asset.

The Core devs are to blame for this "store of value" horseshít. It's not Bitcoin's fault, it's the malicious actors who took it over who are to blame. Bitcoin is an open source idea which they're trying to paint as their own product which they aim to steer in the direction their employer (Blockstream) wishes it to move.

lifeandtimes

tcawley29 wrote: »

Apologies to mods if this is not allowed here but would any boardsies be on for organizing our own little pump and dump?

Although it's not illegal, in my opinion the people who organise and participate in pump and dumps are the scum of the crypto and on a further stretch the tech world.

Like the ambulance chasers of yore You make me sick *phtu*

alb

Bob24 wrote: »

But none of these are giving a bitcoin an intrinsic value for what it is similarly to what I mentioned for gold, collectibles or domain names - they are all about using bitcoin as a conduit (and lets be honest only a tiny minority of bitcoins would be used in these ways).

Currently it is almost exclusively used as a storage of value and a speculative asset.

I've no argument with anything you're saying there, except domain names have no intrinsic value either.

JohnnyFlash

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Many financial experts disagree with you https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/06/bitcoin-and-cryptocurrencies-are-ponzi-bubbles-says-bis.html

This is a good read: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jayadkisson/2017/12/28/the-great-bitcoin-scam/#7d98f6505c1e

This is Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman calling it a Ponzi scheme:

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/bitcoin-is-basically-a-ponzi-scheme/

Here is the Professor of Economics at NYU Nouriel Roubini calling it the biggest bubble in human history.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/feb/02/bitcoin-biggest-bubble-in-history-says-economist-who-predicted-2008-crash

This one talks about the greater fool theory. From the Economist

https://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/11/greater-fool-theory-0

This is a section from https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bitcoin


In order to prop up the initial system, Bitcoin mining was designed to bribe early users with exponentially better rewards than latecomers could get for the same effort. In its current state - and as predicted as part of its core design curve - it is not feasible for a newcomer to Bitcoin to mine their own assets. The economies of scale are far too large and home PC equipment is obsolete. So, to join the network at all, new users must instead give ever-increasing amounts of wealth to previous bitcoiners who are sitting around doing nothing. This effectively makes Bitcoin a pump-and-dump scheme wherein these early adopters, who have more bitcoins than anyone else ever will and did little or no work and assumed no risk, hype it up so they can offload their bitcoins onto fools who think they'll strike it rich as speculators. At the same time those speculators, who are providing all of the capital (the amount of money Bitcoin is actually worth is limited to the amount of fiat currency placed in Bitcoin exchanges as that is the only way new value can enter the ecosystem) and taking all of the risk of a crash, are chasing far lower percentage returns than initial users would receive. This is another classic characteristic of both mania bubbles and the aforementioned pump-and-dump scheme. This means the system runs on opportunism, especially among people who like the idea of decentralized techno-money. This setup is defended as an acceptable trade-off and/or a fair reward for propping up the system.[93]

dubrov

kaymin wrote:

There is actually no need to provide new arguments because the reason you should not invest is because it is a pyramid scheme. I've been open to explanations why it is not a pyramid scheme - I asked as much 3 weeks ago when prices were double what they are now. None of the cyrpto advocates were able to provide any explanation of a business (besides crypto generates profits that depends on crypto currency trades - i.e. the very definition of a pyramid scheme) behind a crypto currency that supports its valuation - can you?

I think you need to recheck the meaning of pyramid scheme.

Also a bubble in cryptos does not invalidate their utility.

drunkmonkey

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

This is a good read: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jayadkisson/2017/12/28/the-great-bitcoin-scam/#7d98f6505c1e

This is Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman calling it a Ponzi scheme:

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/bitcoin-is-basically-a-ponzi-scheme/

Here is the Professor of Economics at NYU Nouriel Roubini calling it the biggest bubble in human history.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/feb/02/bitcoin-biggest-bubble-in-history-says-economist-who-predicted-2008-crash

This one talks about the greater fool theory. From the Economist

https://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/11/greater-fool-theory-0

This is a section from https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bitcoin


In order to prop up the initial system, Bitcoin mining was designed to bribe early users with exponentially better rewards than latecomers could get for the same effort. In its current state - and as predicted as part of its core design curve - it is not feasible for a newcomer to Bitcoin to mine their own assets. The economies of scale are far too large and home PC equipment is obsolete. So, to join the network at all, new users must instead give ever-increasing amounts of wealth to previous bitcoiners who are sitting around doing nothing. This effectively makes Bitcoin a pump-and-dump scheme wherein these early adopters, who have more bitcoins than anyone else ever will and did little or no work and assumed no risk, hype it up so they can offload their bitcoins onto fools who think they'll strike it rich as speculators. At the same time those speculators, who are providing all of the capital (the amount of money Bitcoin is actually worth is limited to the amount of fiat currency placed in Bitcoin exchanges as that is the only way new value can enter the ecosystem) and taking all of the risk of a crash, are chasing far lower percentage returns than initial users would receive. This is another classic characteristic of both mania bubbles and the aforementioned pump-and-dump scheme. This means the system runs on opportunism, especially among people who like the idea of decentralized techno-money. This setup is defended as an acceptable trade-off and/or a fair reward for propping up the system.[93]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bELxZyynLtg

Futures now Kiddo. :rolleyes:

kaymin

dubrov wrote: »

I think you need to recheck the meaning of pyramid scheme.

Also a bubble in cryptos does not invalidate their utility.

Hasn't this been covered already - pyramid scheme, ponzi scheme, pump and dump, bubble, greater fool theory - take your pick.

I've asked a number of times now about whether there is a crypto whose value is supported by a revenue / profit generating business - still nothing despite all the 'experts' here.

Bob24

alb wrote: »

I've no argument with anything you're saying there, except domain names have no intrinsic value either.

Ah there's no point going through this too much as it is a point of detail in the whole discussion, but because it is not tangible doesn't mean a domain name has no intrinsic value. It might depend and what definition people want to give to intrinsic, but it is easy to argue a domain name has intrinsic value because a "good" domain name is some type of influencing and potentially productive tool for whoever owns it (and its benefits - various ways to improve public exposure to the owner's content - can be transferred to someone else). See for exemple what constitute a domain name's intrinsic value as define by IP experts: https://books.google.ie/books?id=aWV4aMdw5Z8C&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=intrinsic+value+domain+name&source=bl&ots=XgAXwg9XWh&sig=zcbM0YpSJ2w_BYJkYd2ZS9h8xGE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdprnpiJLZAhXPEVAKHXrVD2cQ6AEIXjAJ#v=onepage&q=intrinsic%20value%20domain%20name&f=false

Elessar

I was *this* close to selling some of my crypto including my bitcoin last night as it hit 5k euro. But my gut told me to hold off. I'm up 40% already in the last few hours. Dead cat bounce or bull run after the SEC hearing?

grindle

kaymin wrote: »

Hasn't this been covered already - pyramid scheme, ponzi scheme, pump and dump, bubble, greater fool theory - take your pick.

I've asked a number of times now about whether there is a crypto whose value is supported by a revenue / profit generating business - still nothing despite all the 'experts' here.

Given the overvaluation of cryptos I'd agree somewhat with the bubble and greater-fool theory being applied depending on the case.

COSS gives dividends. Currently working product, shares fees which are dependant on volume.

Your obsession with the traditional corporate share structure seems to be your main struggle - can you give any indication for why that's the only model which can grant or expose the value of an asset?

dubrov

kaymin wrote:

I've asked a number of times now about whether there is a crypto whose value is supported by a revenue / profit generating business - still nothing despite all the 'experts' here.

It's a currency not a business.

What's the equivalent for USD?

Bob24

Elessar wrote: »

I was *this* close to selling some of my crypto including my bitcoin last night as it hit 5k euro. But my gut told me to hold off. I'm up 40% already in the last few hours. Dead cat bounce or bull run after the SEC hearing?

Could be either. I think anyone who clames they have the answer to that question is fooling themselves ;-)

kaymin

dubrov wrote: »

It's a currency not a business.

What's the equivalent for USD?

The US economy backs up the USD.

kaymin

grindle wrote: »

Given the overvaluation of cryptos I'd agree somewhat with the bubble and greater-fool theory being applied depending on the case.

COSS gives dividends. Currently working product, shares fees which are dependant on volume.

Your obsession with the traditional corporate share structure seems to be your main struggle - can you give any indication for why that's the only model which can grant or expose the value of an asset?

This comes back to our discussion 3 weeks ago. Fundamentally an asset's value is derived from the present value of its future cash flows. If COSS will generate future cash flows from its operations (not counting investors investing new capital) then it is backed by a real business. In a previous example you gave, the funds used by the crypto to pay 'dividends' were generated solely from crypto currency investment transactions - if COSS has the same model then it's just another stack of cards.

lifeandtimes

kaymin wrote: »

The US economy backs up the USD.

The world crypto market backs up the crypto which is slowly bring used as legal tender around the world.

The comparison people keep making to the stock market is not valid as you can't buy goods and services with shares of a company

grindle

kaymin wrote: »

This comes back to our discussion 3 weeks ago. Fundamentally an asset's value is derived from the present value of its future cash flows. If COSS will generate future cash flows from its operations (not counting investors investing new capital) then it is backed by a real business. In a previous example you gave, the funds used by the crypto to pay 'dividends' were generated solely from crypto currency investment transactions - if COSS has the same model then it's just another stack of cards.

COSS doesn't. It's sharing 50% fees from trades - how is that a stack of cards? Stock exchanges charge fees and so should crypto exchanges in order to operate.

Why should the fact that it's a traditionally operated business affect the promise of another's utility token being utilised?

BorneTobyWilde

Elessar wrote: »

I was *this* close to selling some of my crypto including my bitcoin last night as it hit 5k euro. But my gut told me to hold off. I'm up 40% already in the last few hours. Dead cat bounce or bull run after the SEC hearing?

Why didn't you sell at 20k

Sleeper12

It can't function as a currency with the wild fluctuations. If it can't function as a currency then it only has speculative value. The true value is zero.

I'm not saying that you won't be able to make money on it but you really need to tread carefully.

BorneTobyWilde

How crazy is Bitcoin when it's at 20k one week and 5k the next. That could not happen with 20k pumped into gold, it might go up a tad or down a tad but it would not 1/4 in price in the space of a few weeks.

manu2009

So much FUD in this thread it's become a joke.

Welcome all the new people who came out of the closet because of the crash and feel bad because they've missed out on embracing a new technology that's going to change the world and already is.

Were already moving to a cashless society, it offers a way out from the traditional financial system full of corrupt bankers and governments, it allows everyone to be treated equally, send money within minutes worldwide and to be in full control of their personal finances.

Blockchain tech is here to stay, more and more innovation is happening for example the Substratum project who have developed software that's going to decentralize the web for users in countries such as China.

If Bitcoin was a Ponzi scheme why would so many large scale successful businesses take risk and accept it as payment e.g scan.co.uk for pc parts, cheapair.com and expedia.com for flights and hotels etc.?

lifeandtimes

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It can't function as a currency with the wild fluctuations. If it can't function as a currency then it only has speculative value. The true value is zero.

I'm not saying that you won't be able to make money on it but you really need to tread carefully.

Any fluctuations will be minimilised once it's adopted properly around the world and regulated. Just like fiat and in another sense the stock market

grindle

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

How crazy is Bitcoin when it's at 20k one week and 5k the next. That could not happen with 20k pumped into gold, it might go up a tad or down a tad but it would not 1/4 in price in the space of a few weeks.

There's been much more history behind gold and much more money thrown behind it.

I hate defending BTC but the volatility is not the best reason to attack it.

kaymin

grindle wrote: »

COSS doesn't. It's sharing 50% fees from trades - how is that a stack of cards? Stock exchanges charge fees and so should crypto exchanges in order to operate.

Why should the fact that it's a traditionally operated business affect the promise of another's utility token being utilised?

What I'm trying to establish is whether COSS generates value outside of investment transactions in the currency itself. I can see from coss.io that they provide a point of sale / payment gateway with P2P remittance and KYC services to follow. So these are the services that generate value. Does this support a $33m valuation though? What traction have they achieved in the marketplace?