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US Voting Rules & ID Requirements

  • 28-01-2018 10:58pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭ VonZan


    By ‘voter supression’ are you referring to the ID laws in certain states?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭ eire4


    VonZan wrote: »
    By ‘voter supression’ are you referring to the ID laws in certain states?

    That would be one of the common methods used in voter suppression efforts yes. But there are other methods used as well such as purging the voter roles, cutting opening hours, cutting early voting days, changing voting locations and poll watchers indulging in some good old fashioned intimidation as some examples of voter suppression currently par for the course in the US.


  • Registered Users Posts: 72,108 ✭✭✭✭ Overheal


    VonZan wrote: »
    By ‘voter supression’ are you referring to the ID laws in certain states?

    Voter suppression wears several hats: voter ID is one, restricting early voting and mail-in ballots, closing polling places, are others. My personal favorite is voter registration roll purges which seem to only happen in the election year, rather than immediately following an election which would give voters a much more reasonable period of time to re-register.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/7/13545718/voter-suppression-early-voting-2016


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,984 ✭✭✭✭ Ads by Google


    I'm yet to hear a compelling argument about why voter ID laws benefit the Republicans.

    "Making people require ID stops them from voting." Well if you can't organise an ID card, you probably don't deserve a vote. If you're saying your party's demographic can't organise ID in general, that's just insulting. My brother was illegal over there and had a driving license, so surely a citizen can get one.

    For reference: Texas requirements.
    Texas driver license
    Texas Election Identification Certificate
    Texas personal identification card
    Texas license to carry a handgun
    United States military identification card
    United States citizenship certificate
    United States passport


    As far as I'm aware, that was deemed discriminatory against black / Latino voters, so you can vote by signing a declaration and showing a utility bill.

    Could someone please explain why that is discriminatory against those two races in particular?

    And why would you not support the removal of the ID requirement in Ireland, while supporting it over there?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Really Interested


    I'm yet to hear a compelling argument about why voter ID laws benefit the Republicans.

    "Making people require ID stops them from voting." Well if you can't organise an ID card, you probably don't deserve a vote. If you're saying your party's demographic can't organise ID in general, that's just insulting. My brother was illegal over there and had a driving license, so surely a citizen can get one.

    For reference: Texas requirements.
    Texas driver license
    Texas Election Identification Certificate
    Texas personal identification card
    Texas license to carry a handgun
    United States military identification card
    United States citizenship certificate
    United States passport


    As far as I'm aware, that was deemed discriminatory against black / Latino voters, so you can vote by signing a declaration and showing a utility bill.

    Could someone please explain why that is discriminatory against those two races in particular?

    And why would you not support the removal of the ID requirement in Ireland, while supporting it over there?

    Because historically those two groups have lower numbers who have for example driving licences. It’s not the requirement to have photo ID it’s that in some cases the ID required is often not held by a certain group.

    http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2012/jul/11/eric-holder/eric-holder-says-recent-studies-show-25-percent-af/

    That’s a lot of black voters excluded 25%. In most cases their is a cost to get the ID. Would you be in favour of a charge to register to vote or a charge to get a voting card. Also there is often only a certain number of offices in a state that issue the cards, meaning a person who does not drive has to travel some distance and pay money to get a ID card for one purpose only that being to vote.

    If it was shown that ID law in Ireland excluded a group then I would oppose the law, in any event there is a free photo ID card in Ireland that is easy to get.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,984 ✭✭✭✭ Ads by Google


    These same people seemingly can't buy alcohol or go on a flight, because they haven't paid the $25 fee to get a driving license in Texas.

    A voting system's integrity being thrown away because 25% of black men and women don't bother with IDs is farcical in my opinion. And if only 50% of people vote, I find it unlikely that the people who live life without ID were gonna vote.


    It's 2018. Not 1968. They can get ID if they want it.

    Why would you only get rid of ID in Ireland if it stopped someone voting? Why not just get rid of it now? There are people here with no ID so let's let them vote.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Really Interested


    These same people seemingly can't buy alcohol or go on a flight, because they haven't paid the $25 fee to get a driving license in Texas.

    A voting system's integrity being thrown away because 25% of black men and women don't bother with IDs is farcical in my opinion. And if only 50% of people vote, I find it unlikely that the people who live life without ID were gonna vote.


    It's 2018. Not 1968. They can get ID if they want it.

    Why would you only get rid of ID in Ireland if it stopped someone voting? Why not just get rid of it now? There are people here with no ID so let's let them vote.

    Why require photo ID can you point at widespread voter fraud in Ireland or USA. I am registered to vote in Ireland and have never required Photo ID to vote in any Seanad or Dail presidential or referendum vote.

    The SC in the US has upheld voter ID laws and struck down some the issue usually comes down to is it shown that the laws suppress certain groups.

    1% being stopped can flip an election. If that is done by fraud or voter suppression it is wrong.

    In the last 3 presidential elections more people voted Democratic yet through issues with districts the Republicans control most state legislators and the federal house.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭ strandroad


    These same people seemingly can't buy alcohol or go on a flight, because they haven't paid the $25 fee to get a driving license in Texas.

    A voting system's integrity being thrown away because 25% of black men and women don't bother with IDs is farcical in my opinion. And if only 50% of people vote, I find it unlikely that the people who live life without ID were gonna vote.


    It's 2018. Not 1968. They can get ID if they want it.

    Why would you only get rid of ID in Ireland if it stopped someone voting? Why not just get rid of it now? There are people here with no ID so let's let them vote.

    Suprisingly many people don't fly or indeed leave their locality. Car ownership is much lower in certain demographics (also relevant to so called food deserts). To get a driving license just to vote they need to sit a test and pay, and the process is made even harder if office locations are closed and hours restricted, meaning that the person needs to take time off work to travel to another location, forgoing a days pay if they can take it off at all. There is no annual leave as we know it in minimum wage jobs.
    There are activist driven initiatives set up specifically to give people lifts to office locations and help them navigate the obstacles so that they do not need to take multiple days off to get it sorted. But even with help to get an ID means to spend money while losing pay, and many people can't afford it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Really Interested


    strandroad wrote: »
    Suprisingly many people don't fly or indeed leave their locality. Car ownership is much lower in certain demographics (also relevant to so called food deserts). To get a driving license just to vote they need to sit a test and pay, and the process is made even harder if office locations are closed and hours restricted, meaning that the person needs to take time off work to travel to another location, forgoing a days pay if they can take it off at all. There is no annual leave as we know it in minimum wage jobs.
    There are activist driven initiatives set up specifically to give people lifts to office locations and help them navigate the obstacles so that they do not need to take multiple days off to get it sorted. But even with help to get a driving ID means to spend money while losing pay, and many people can't afford it.

    According to some people including it would seem Adds By Google poor people should not be allowed to vote because of some voter fraud funny all studies seem to say that does not exist

    https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,121 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    Why require photo ID can you point at widespread voter fraud in Ireland or USA. I am registered to vote in Ireland and have never required Photo ID to vote in any Seanad or Dail presidential or referendum vote.

    The SC in the US has upheld voter ID laws and struck down some the issue usually comes down to is it shown that the laws suppress certain groups.

    1% being stopped can flip an election. If that is done by fraud or voter suppression it is wrong.

    In the last 3 presidential elections more people voted Democratic yet through issues with districts the Republicans control most state legislators and the federal house.

    On the flip side, voting in an election is a serious business and should be taken seriously by both the institutions of the state and the citizens.

    Whilst I have never been asked, or at least can't recall being asked, for any more ID than the voting card at a polling station, the requirements are clearly laid out and I bring ID with me each time and would not feel hard done by or persecuted if I was asked. It is about maintaining the credibility of the poll.

    In terms of citizens responsibilities, surely it is the least that one should ask of any citizen that they partake in the system. If that means applying for some of of ID then so be it. I mean, I bet they have FB accounts, and Amazon accounts and loads of other things that they willing give mountains of personal data away for free, as well as devoting large amounts of time to, but they seemingly can't organise themselves to get ID.

    In regards to the offices being in another town, its not an everyday trip. Once every 5/10 years. Hardly too much too ask for people who state they love freedom and the sacrifices of the military.

    I mentioned it before, but the DNC should be concentrating all their efforts into getting the 50% odd of people that currently do not vote in POTUS elections to register and to vote. Given the demographics of those people it would likely lead to a landslide, at least in the short term, for them.

    In saying all the above, I do appreciate that voter suppression in the US is more hostile than here and that far more barriers, and far more targeted. But these people need to fight back rather than simply accept it.

    Stop moaning about it and organise bus trips to the state office to get ID. Get the Vote out type orgs in the town and villages most affected. Explain the possible effects that their combined voice could have.

    In at bottom of it is that the DNC are really that interested in changing it either. Mobilising such a large volume would likely see the current 2 party system destroyed as I get the feeling that the DNC is only supported due to it being the least worst option.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Really Interested


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    On the flip side, voting in an election is a serious business and should be taken seriously by both the institutions of the state and the citizens.

    Whilst I have never been asked, or at least can't recall being asked, for any more ID than the voting card at a polling station, the requirements are clearly laid out and I bring ID with me each time and would not feel hard done by or persecuted if I was asked. It is about maintaining the credibility of the poll.

    In terms of citizens responsibilities, surely it is the least that one should ask of any citizen that they partake in the system. If that means applying for some of of ID then so be it. I mean, I bet they have FB accounts, and Amazon accounts and loads of other things that they willing give mountains of personal data away for free, as well as devoting large amounts of time to, but they seemingly can't organise themselves to get ID.

    In regards to the offices being in another town, its not an everyday trip. Once every 5/10 years. Hardly too much too ask for people who state they love freedom and the sacrifices of the military.

    I mentioned it before, but the DNC should be concentrating all their efforts into getting the 50% odd of people that currently do not vote in POTUS elections to register and to vote. Given the demographics of those people it would likely lead to a landslide, at least in the short term, for them.

    In saying all the above, I do appreciate that voter suppression in the US is more hostile than here and that far more barriers, and far more targeted. But these people need to fight back rather than simply accept it.

    Stop moaning about it and organise bus trips to the state office to get ID. Get the Vote out type orgs in the town and villages most affected. Explain the possible effects that their combined voice could have.

    In at bottom of it is that the DNC are really that interested in changing it either. Mobilising such a large volume would likely see the current 2 party system destroyed as I get the feeling that the DNC is only supported due to it being the least worst option.

    https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth

    Can you show any instance of serious voter fraud?

    I have no issue with ID what I have is when the ID picked means that a % of one group are disenfranchised.

    The issue of the two party system is a totally different issue and many of the founding fathers argued against any political party I for one agree with them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,984 ✭✭✭✭ Ads by Google


    https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth

    Can you show any instance of serious voter fraud?

    I have no issue with ID what I have is when the ID picked means that a % of one group are disenfranchised.

    The issue of the two party system is a totally different issue and many of the founding fathers argued against any political party I for one agree with them.
    I'm not sure how there could ever be a good example for that question. Wouldn't it require thousands of people getting caught on the same day?

    It's a bit silly to know about all of the identities borrowed and used to send the FCC comments, and then argue for a system that makes it trivial to commit similar voter fraud.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,121 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth

    Can you show any instance of serious voter fraud?

    I have no issue with ID what I have is when the ID picked means that a % of one group are disenfranchised.

    The issue of the two party system is a totally different issue and many of the founding fathers argued against any political party I for one agree with them.

    By why should it only be about voter fraud? I see it as a responsibility on behalf of the citizen to do what is needed to partake. millions of Americans (and plenty more across other democracies) seemingly think that voting is just too much hassle.

    Why wouldn't the GOP look to curtail their input when it seems they are so willing to simply accept it. If driving licences are the issue then why aren't they marching to get something else in place?

    My view is the democracy is a responsibility, not simply a right. Along with having to educate yourself on the issues you need to invest time to get your voice heard.

    It is the same with students in Ireland complaining about voting on Thursday. Either make the effort to arrange to get home in time to vote or change your voting district. It just takes a bit of effort.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Really Interested


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    By why should it only be about voter fraud? I see it as a responsibility on behalf of the citizen to do what is needed to partake. millions of Americans (and plenty more across other democracies) seemingly think that voting is just too much hassle.

    Why wouldn't the GOP look to curtail their input when it seems they are so willing to simply accept it. If driving licences are the issue then why aren't they marching to get something else in place?

    My view is the democracy is a responsibility, not simply a right. Along with having to educate yourself on the issues you need to invest time to get your voice heard.

    It is the same with students in Ireland complaining about voting on Thursday. Either make the effort to arrange to get home in time to vote or change your voting district. It just takes a bit of effort.

    Until recently phot ID did not exist, I have no problem with ID laws if they are legal and required but like the Courts in the USA I have issue with any law which is in effect voter suppression https://www.google.ie/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1571YS

    “The justices let stand a July 2016 decision by a lower court that found that the 2011 Texas statute ran afoul of a federal law that bars racial discrimination in elections and directed a lower court to find a way to fix the law's discriminatory effects against minorities.”

    Do you agree with that decision or not?

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/526713/

    “The Supreme Court declined to review the law that lower courts found to be discriminatory, but made no judgment on the merits of the policy.”

    To be clear I have no issue with any law a country or state want to bring in for voting, what I and it would seem Courts have a problem with is when the law in effect breaches the constitution or other laws.

    Do you think it’s ok for a State to ignore the rulings of the Supreme Court?

    Would you be in favour of a free easy to get national voting card?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,121 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    Until recently phot ID did not exist, I have no problem with ID laws if they are legal and required but like the Courts in the USA I have issue with any law which is in effect voter suppression https://www.google.ie/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1571YS

    “The justices let stand a July 2016 decision by a lower court that found that the 2011 Texas statute ran afoul of a federal law that bars racial discrimination in elections and directed a lower court to find a way to fix the law's discriminatory effects against minorities.”

    Do you agree with that decision or not?

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/526713/

    “The Supreme Court declined to review the law that lower courts found to be discriminatory, but made no judgment on the merits of the policy.”

    To be clear I have no issue with any law a country or state want to bring in for voting, what I and it would seem Courts have a problem with is when the law in effect breaches the constitution or other laws.

    Do you think it’s ok for a State to ignore the rulings of the Supreme Court?

    They are two separate, but closely linked, things. One is voter ID, the other is voter suppression.

    No, of course I don't agree with ignoring the courts, the constitution or the law in general. Any voter ID system should be applicable to everyone and available to everyone on an equal basis. That doesn't mean that it has to be free (in terms of money) of involve no investment in terms of time or travel by some people.

    The way it is painted, there would appears to be millions of Americans who don't drive, own guns, drink, every travel outside their home town. I don't believe that such a large number of them exist.

    It goes back to Ads by Google original point (or at least what I took to be the point) that it is not suppression simply because people find it difficult. It is fairly easy, in many cases, to overcome the attempted suppression so it can only be assumed that people simple don't care enough to ensure they are the necessary.

    For example, I find it staggering to see the lines of voters outside the polling stations in the US and how long people are prepared to que. But sometimes that is the price to pay for being a citizen.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,633 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Quin_Dub


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    They are two separate, but closely linked, things. One is voter ID, the other is voter suppression.

    No, of course I don't agree with ignoring the courts, the constitution or the law in general. Any voter ID system should be applicable to everyone and available to everyone on an equal basis. That doesn't mean that it has to be free (in terms of money) of involve no investment in terms of time or travel by some people.

    The way it is painted, there would appears to be millions of Americans who don't drive, own guns, drink, every travel outside their home town. I don't believe that such a large number of them exist.

    It goes back to Ads by Google original point (or at least what I took to be the point) that it is not suppression simply because people find it difficult. It is fairly easy, in many cases, to overcome the attempted suppression so it can only be assumed that people simple don't care enough to ensure they are the necessary.

    For example, I find it staggering to see the lines of voters outside the polling stations in the US and how long people are prepared to que. But sometimes that is the price to pay for being a citizen.

    I've often wondered about that myself.

    Why do they have such extensive queues?

    Is it limited number of polling booths , limited opening hours?

    I don't think I've ever seen a queue outside the building in Ireland and I personally have never had to wait more than a minute or two for a booth to free up to vote.

    Given the generally low turn-out in US elections , what causes these queues?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Really Interested


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    They are two separate, but closely linked, things. One is voter ID, the other is voter suppression.

    No, of course I don't agree with ignoring the courts, the constitution or the law in general. Any voter ID system should be applicable to everyone and available to everyone on an equal basis. That doesn't mean that it has to be free (in terms of money) of involve no investment in terms of time or travel by some people.

    The way it is painted, there would appears to be millions of Americans who don't drive, own guns, drink, every travel outside their home town. I don't believe that such a large number of them exist.

    It goes back to Ads by Google original point (or at least what I took to be the point) that it is not suppression simply because people find it difficult. It is fairly easy, in many cases, to overcome the attempted suppression so it can only be assumed that people simple don't care enough to ensure they are the necessary.

    For example, I find it staggering to see the lines of voters outside the polling stations in the US and how long people are prepared to que. But sometimes that is the price to pay for being a citizen.

    The Supreme has upheld some voter ID laws and struck down those that target a group or groups of people.

    I do not think there should be any charge to vote. In relation to going to a office I have no issue as long as no group are disadvantaged. For example only having one office in a large state say where 90% of the Hispanic population live while the white population and Black population live say min 3 hours drive away.

    Voter suppression can be linked with ID laws when it is it should be stamped out.

    I have made it clear I have no issue with voter ID laws as long as such laws do not disadvantage a particular group. Of course any law may make it difficult to vote (not having a voting station at every home) but having voting stations does not disenfranchise a particular group it just means every person must go to the station and at times wait in a line.

    What I can not understand is what is both your view and that of Adds by google to the decision of courts that some voter ID laws did amount to voter suppression?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,121 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    I've often wondered about that myself.

    Why do they have such extensive queues?

    Is it limited number of polling booths , limited opening hours?

    I don't think I've ever seen a queue outside the building in Ireland and I personally have never had to wait more than a minute or two for a booth to free up to vote.

    Given the generally low turn-out in US elections , what causes these queues?

    Now this I do believe is voter suppression. It would appear that they simply do not provide enough stations, or maybe time, to make the voting a simple and efficient process.

    And it must have a negative impact of voters that are weighing up voting, when faced with an 1+ que will simply opt out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Really Interested


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    I've often wondered about that myself.

    Why do they have such extensive queues?

    Is it limited number of polling booths , limited opening hours?

    I don't think I've ever seen a queue outside the building in Ireland and I personally have never had to wait more than a minute or two for a booth to free up to vote.

    Given the generally low turn-out in US elections , what causes these queues?

    https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/long-voting-lines-explained

    There are many reasons for long lines, but it must be remembered US elections are not just pick the president and go, there can be many ballots for federal, state local level with many elections at each level. Add that each state or county looks after the voting.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,917 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Nody


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    It goes back to Ads by Google original point (or at least what I took to be the point) that it is not suppression simply because people find it difficult. It is fairly easy, in many cases, to overcome the attempted suppression so it can only be assumed that people simple don't care enough to ensure they are the necessary.

    For example, I find it staggering to see the lines of voters outside the polling stations in the US and how long people are prepared to que. But sometimes that is the price to pay for being a citizen.
    When you implement the law of requiring photo ID and shut down all offices bar one single location in middle of no where to be open 2h a month only to issue them you are actively trying to suppress voters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,121 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    What I can not understand is what is both your view and that of Adds by google to the decision of courts that some voter ID laws did amount to voter suppression?

    I can't speak for AbG, but from my POV, we are both agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.

    I too am against voter suppression, and it is clear from the link that the courts agree as well. And it is clearly a case of utilising the laws to target certain groups.

    My point is that why are they accepting that. There is no way for the groups to be stopped from meeting the requirements. That they currently don't is being utilised to keep them from voting but it is, relatively, easy to overcome.

    No charge to vote, but there is a cost to being a citizen. Be that social responsibility, adherence to accepted norms and customs etc, it seems that certain people think they carry no responsibility to play an active role. For example, it take time to review the options out their and decide which option best supports your view. It is too easy to simply say "I always vote GOP/DNC". That is not taking your democratic responsibility seriously.

    Are the laws fair for everyone? I agree that many of them place more burdens on certain sections than others. But the way to correct that is to put in place those people who will even it out, and you achieve that by taking part.

    Lets see how many of those that feel they were suppressed at the 2016 election will take action to ensure they have a voice in 2020.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,121 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    Nody wrote: »
    When you implement the law of requiring photo ID and shut down all offices bar one single location in middle of no where to be open 2h a month only to issue them you are actively trying to suppress voters.

    So how do their voters get registered, surely that means that are no voters at all?

    I agree that it is attempting to suppress, but it is still open to everyone to try to register.

    I am not saying it is not happening, and not trying to suggest that it is anything other that a deliberate attempt to rig the vote, but rather that it is in the hands of the people to overcome it.

    Demand more offices, hold rallies, marches, demand action from the local rep. Demand the DNC to take the issue seriously. Start of campaign. Hell, you think the likes of ML King didn't face far worse than having to travel to register?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Really Interested


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    I can't speak for AbG, but from my POV, we are both agreeing and disagreeing and the same time.

    I too am against voter suppression, and it is clear from the link that the courts agree as well. But that is clearly a case of utilising the laws to target certain groups.

    My point is that why are they accepting that. There is no way for the groups to be stopped from meeting the requirements. That they currently don't is being utilised to keep them from voting but it is, relatively, easy to overcome.

    No charge to vote, but there is a cost to being a citizen. Be that social responsibility, adherence to accepted norms and customs etc, it seems that certain people think they carry no responsibility to play an active role. For example, it take time to review the options out their and decide which option best supports your view. It is too easy to simply say "I always vote GOP/DNC". That is not taking your democratic responsibility seriously.

    Are the laws fair for everyone? I agree that many of them place more burdens on certain sections than others. But the way to correct that is to put in place those people who will even it out, and you achieve that by taking part.

    Lets see how many of those that feel they were suppressed at the 2016 election will take action to ensure they have a voice in 2020.

    There have been active measures in some parts of the USA to stop non white voting. Not allowing people to vote unless they had a grand parent who entitled to vote pre 1860’s having impossible tests for African Americans only.

    The test now is simple any impediment to voting which I accept exist in any system must be fair. Say for example putting more machines per head in rich areas or Spanish speaking areas are on the face unfair. On first glance ID laws may be fair but when looked into they may put a greater burden on people who are poor or different race or religion if that is proven then the law is unfair for some more than others.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,917 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Nody


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So how do their voters get registered, surely that means that are no voters at all?
    Not to register; to get a valid photo ID if you don't have a driver license or passport. Something which every statistic shows that the groups least likely to have one happen to be colored, poor and/or elderly.
    I am not saying it is not happening, and not trying to suggest that it is anything other that a deliberate attempt to rig the vote, but rather that it is in the hands of the people to overcome it.
    The appeals court noted that the North Carolina Legislature "requested data on the use, by race, of a number of voting practices"—then, data in hand, "enacted legislation that restricted voting and registration in five different ways, all of which disproportionately affected African Americans." The changes to the voting process "target African Americans with almost surgical precision," and "impose cures for problems that did not exist."
    That's an excerpt from the 4th Circuit court on one such ruling; want to take a wild guess at which party tried to implement it?

    Or how about Texas law (also slapped down) which allowed:
    "Part of that has to do with the type of photo IDs the Legislature designated as legitimate. For example, military IDs and concealed handgun carry permits — they're lawful to vote. But state employee photo IDs and university photo IDs are not.

    "So in federal court, the plaintiff's lawyers have argued successfully that the Legislature approved ID cards that were more likely to be held by white Republican voters and excluded IDs that were more likely to be held by minority Democrats."
    So even with photo IDs available one party got favoured over the other by limiting what was suddenly acceptable.
    Demand more offices, hold rallies, marches, demand action from the local rep. Demand the DNC to take the issue seriously. Start of campaign. Hell, you think the likes of ML King didn't face far worse than having to travel to register?
    Your local rep is only worth something if he can be voted into power in the first place; removing a significant group of voters for one party tends to skew that far better than any gerrymandering can do. Voter ID is a great idea if you give everyone a free ID from an local location they can reasonably be expected to get to under their circumstances. Putting it hours away by car and only open for 2 hours a month to ensure poor people can't get an ID is not; and that's in essence what 99% of all voter ID laws come down to in practice. A way to restrict those more likely to vote Democrat by adding hurdles for no other reason than to stop them from voting (because if the actual claim of voter fraud was true there would be specific state issued IDs to everyone for free instead).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Really Interested


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So how do their voters get registered, surely that means that are no voters at all?

    I agree that it is attempting to suppress, but it is still open to everyone to try to register.

    I am not saying it is not happening, and not trying to suggest that it is anything other that a deliberate attempt to rig the vote, but rather that it is in the hands of the people to overcome it.

    Demand more offices, hold rallies, marches, demand action from the local rep. Demand the DNC to take the issue seriously. Start of campaign. Hell, you think the likes of ML King didn't face far worse than having to travel to register?

    Every thing you advice doing has been done. But some times those in power can only be ordered to change the system by the courts.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN11M0WY

    It’s not that it’s difficult to vote but that some people are making it more difficult for certain people to vote. Imagine in certain states it was shown that day 30,000 did not vote because it was made more difficult for them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭ strandroad


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So how do their voters get registered, surely that means that are no voters at all?

    I agree that it is attempting to suppress, but it is still open to everyone to try to register.

    I am not saying it is not happening, and not trying to suggest that it is anything other that a deliberate attempt to rig the vote, but rather that it is in the hands of the people to overcome it.

    Demand more offices, hold rallies, marches, demand action from the local rep. Demand the DNC to take the issue seriously. Start of campaign. Hell, you think the likes of ML King didn't face far worse than having to travel to register?

    It's easy to register if you own a car (driving license) or travel abroad (passport), and not easy otherwise. Note how the two factors above are powerful social strata filters in themselves. If you're in, you don't care and you have trouble understanding why others are complaining.

    In terms of initiatives, there are plenty. I was trying to find links to articles I saw on the subject, basically shadowing volunteer helpers - they are growing their networks and there are definitely kept busy. What they note is not just how difficult it is to access the office or that posting or uploading paperwork is often not allowed, but also how the requirements are often changing on the fly - you help someone to the office to get their state ID, and suddenly it turns out that the selection of documents required is no longer sufficient or appropriate, and the officer waves them away and requires another visit. Sometimes it's due to frequent legislation updates too, as this area is politically very active in republican states especially. These problems are compounded for people living in a different state that they were born in. All keeping in mind that often we are talking about very disadvantaged population whose parents did not exactly line up their birth certificates for them, or who are obese or infirm. No annual leave, no childcare etc.

    Most of it can be overcome of course, but it's no wonder that in certain demographics the process is much longer and more likely to make people drop out if financial or personal costs become prohibitive. Or not attempt it at all if they hear about the experience of others in the same boat.




  • I'm yet to hear a compelling argument about why voter ID laws benefit the Republicans.
    Really? If you want to argue about intent then go right ahead but you really haven't heard an compelling argument about how making it harder for poor people and minorites to vote benefits Republicans?




  • Anyway there's a few issues. Some states won't accept state college IDs, out of state drivers licences etc. It's a ****show really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,984 ✭✭✭✭ Ads by Google


    Really? If you want to argue about intent then go right ahead but you really haven't heard an compelling argument about how making it harder for poor people and minorites to vote benefits Republicans?

    I've heard of the voting booth location stuff and that I agree with as being a bad thing. It's like this sort of stuff should be taken care of my a separate impartial agency.


    As for the voter ID stuff specifically, I'm not yet convinced and don't think I ever will be. Election campaigns can last for like two years and I think there is a more than reasonable amount of time for someone to get ID. If 25% of black people don't have one, that means 75% do, so it is possible.



    The other big voter suppression thing, though I'm not sure how intentional it was, is NY requiring you to declare your party 193 days before the primaries. That impacted Sanders in a very big way there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Really Interested


    I've heard of the voting booth location stuff and that I agree with as being a bad thing. It's like this sort of stuff should be taken care of my a separate impartial agency.


    As for the voter ID stuff specifically, I'm not yet convinced and don't think I ever will be. Election campaigns can last for like two years and I think there is a more than reasonable amount of time for someone to get ID. If 25% of black people don't have one, that means 75% do, so it is possible.



    The other big voter suppression thing, though I'm not sure how intentional it was, is NY requiring you to declare your party 193 days before the primaries. That impacted Sanders in a very big way there.

    So you think the US Supreme Court in its Ruling not to hear the Texas case are wrong?


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  • I've heard of the voting booth location stuff and that I agree with as being a bad thing. It's like this sort of stuff should be taken care of my a separate impartial agency.


    As for the voter ID stuff specifically, I'm not yet convinced and don't think I ever will be. Election campaigns can last for like two years and I think there is a more than reasonable amount of time for someone to get ID. If 25% of black people don't have one, that means 75% do, so it is possible.



    The other big voter suppression thing, though I'm not sure how intentional it was, is NY requiring you to declare your party 193 days before the primaries. That impacted Sanders in a very big way there.
    You're still going around the issue.

    Do you honestly not think that for the set of people "suppressed" that them not voting doesn't directly benefit the Republicans? Forget about intent or implied laziness or anything else, of all those laws do you genuinely need to see a "compelling argument" that it benefits the Republicans over the Democrats?


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