The end of the tube fed pump[ and semi auto] shotgun??

Grizzly 45

From SHOT show 2018.
Mossberg and Remington have both brought out box mag loaded shotguns.Mag capacity is from 5to 20 rounds,[and no doubt 3 round as well for hunting soon enough] I have no doubt they are working on a semi-auto 1187 and Mossberg SA as well.
Anyone getting a whiff of obsolescence, or a new fad, or something for the anti-gunners to get hysterical about.
One thing I see is a safety feature.Without the mag, one of these is just an awkward single shot.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/01/22/mossberg-double-stack-590m/

Cass

Its not a new concept. Been around for decades and currently available from a number of other manufacturers. It hasn't done away with "standard" pump or semi autos yet so i doubt it'll happen anytime soon.

I was more curious about the Franklin Reformation rifle. Rifled, but straight rifling which is "overcome" by a sabot type design/bullet and has accuracy of between 1 and 4 MOA at 50 & 100 yards. What in the name of all that is Holy is the point of this thing? To circumvent the law by not being a rifle and not being a shotgun? It'll only be closed off with legislation and then you'll have an expensive, inaccurate, paperweight.

Most advances in firearm design are subtle and very few are revolutionary. There is improvement to be had to old designs, but with propellant based cartridges i don't see any ground breaking developments that haven't been thought of or tried.

Anyone remember the Beretta UGB. A solution to a problem that never existed is the best way i heard of it being described.

Grizzly 45

True,Remington built various designs of the 870 with a box loader and field-tested them in Vietnam with SEAL units, as they did a prototype Remington 1100 in full auto[the 7188] But they never followed up the design, until now,and I reckon these have only shown up now because guns like black aces or the Venom sidewinder Mossberg kits are starting to make inroads.

The Franklin Reformation and Black Aces tactical DTRS "Firearm" are basically "paradox guns" or more succinctly "Fuk U BATF and the NFA law" guns.They are built in compliance with getting around the 1934 firearms act and paying 200usd and the paperwork for Federal licensing of a title 3 weapon.IE Full Auto, a Destructive Device, silencers, a Short Barrelled Shotgun, Short Barreled Rifle, or Any Other Weapon.Seeing that they are built in compliance with the 1934 act, it is a challenge to the Govt to go and try and ban them as they would have to revisit that entire act, same thing like the silenced BP muzzleloaders.Al in all it is a unique US phenomenon, and unlikely to be of much use to us here.

gunny123

Cass wrote: »

Most advances in firearm design are subtle and very few are revolutionary. There is improvement to be had to old designs, but with propellant based cartridges i don't see any ground breaking developments that haven't been thought of or tried.

Follow "forgotten weapons" channel over on youtube. Absolutely nothing new for many decades. Even things like the ar15 and the glock had their predecessors further back in history. Most of the whacky ideas seemed to come about 100 years ago, people doing things like converting lee-enfields to semi-automatic and the webley fosbury "automatic" revolver.

Nekarsulm

I think its just a fad, or a marketing exercise.
Following on from the success of the Shockwave, and Remingtons belated contender the Tac-14, companies are casting around for a new gimmick.
Adaptive Tactical have been developing their Venom range of box and rotary magazine conversions for the 500 for a few years now, and Black Aces are doing the same type of kit for both the 500 and various Remington models.
Both aimed at the Tactical Shotgun class of sport, with added sales to the Home Defence/Me too segment of the market.
The mainstream manufacturers don't want to miss out on possible sales, so are bringing OEM versions to the market.

Uinseann_16

Cass wrote: »

Its not a new concept. Been around for decades and currently available from a number of other manufacturers. It hasn't done away with "standard" pump or semi autos yet so i doubt it'll happen anytime soon.

I was more curious about the Franklin Reformation rifle. Rifled, but straight rifling which is "overcome" by a sabot type design/bullet and has accuracy of between 1 and 4 MOA at 50 & 100 yards. What in the name of all that is Holy is the point of this thing? To circumvent the law by not being a rifle and not being a shotgun? It'll only be closed off with legislation and then you'll have an expensive, inaccurate, paperweight.

Most advances in firearm design are subtle and very few are revolutionary. There is improvement to be had to old designs, but with propellant based cartridges i don't see any ground breaking developments that haven't been thought of or tried.

Anyone remember the Beretta UGB. A solution to a problem that never existed is the best way i heard of it being described.

This is where i think you are wrong the pistol braces have allowed people to shoulder(sbr type) pistols without paying a tax stamp same with the franklin. Why not try to find loopholes in the law its been done in the uk with modern revolvers being converted to cap and ball and with long barrel pistols ahem rifles , We see these countries find ways to improve their sport yet here we are beginning to destroy our own, not pushing for better laws

Grizzly 45

Even the UK had a few of these type of guns when they still had handguns.Anyone remember Dolphin Arms in Brighton?They made two the "Defender" and "Destroyer" These were a pump and semi-auto "handgun" based on pump or semi-auto shotguns that had rifled barrels instead of smoothbore and were pistol gripped.They could then be equipped with shoulder stocks like any broom handle Mauser or the like.Never went very far, as Dolphin got itself involved with some messing of selling arms to Croatia during the Yugoslav conflict:rolleyes::rolleyes:,and Dunblane happened to kill off handguns in the UK.

Cass

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

This is where i think you are wrong the pistol braces have allowed people to shoulder(sbr type) pistols without paying a tax stamp same with the franklin.

I'm not arguing against the use of loopholes, but when done it should make sense and be effective. By all accounts, from every review i've seen including the manufacturer, the rifle is not accurate. Its the equivalent of a modern day musket only the musket may actually be more accurate.

Why not try to find loopholes in the law its been done in the uk with modern revolvers being converted to cap and ball and with long barrel pistols ahem rifles ,

Again not arguing against the use of loopholes, but any means to get around it should not produce an ineffective firearm. Look at bump stocks. I've watched dozens of videos of lads shooting them and by all accounts they are useless. The only redeeming feature is they allow for rapid fire but otherwise are completely inaccurate and in some tests they can cause failure of the firearm.

We see these countries find ways to improve their sport yet here we are beginning to destroy our own, not pushing for better laws

America is unique in that they have a constitutional right to firearms. However the land of the free is becoming very much less so.

gunny123

Cass wrote: »

America is unique in that they have a constitutional right to firearms. However the land of the free is becoming very much less so.

America seems to be splitting, looking at a video on this years shot show, Weatherby is moving from California after over 70 years to Wyoming, because they are sick of the ever tightening laws and regulations around firearms.

In Wyoming, the governer of the state turned out ot welcome them and was on their stand at the shot show. Proclaiming that "Wyoming is a gun state".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb851wE3UFM

Cass

gunny123 wrote: »

....... Weatherby is moving from California after over 70 years to Wyoming, because they are sick of the ever tightening laws and regulations around firearms. ...............

Have you seen the latest batch of regulations California introduced on Jan 1st? Not surprising they're moving. I can see them becoming gun free within the next decade. Exactly where they want to be.








fecking tree hugging, liberal, hippie, snowflake state.

cavan shooter

Three shot box mag for a shotgun. It reminds me of an old bolt action shotgun my uncle had. I can't see it taking off here

gunny123

cavan shooter wrote: »

Three shot box mag for a shotgun. It reminds me of an old bolt action shotgun my uncle had. I can't see it taking off here

There is a marlin bolt action shotgun in ballistech in Wexford. 3 1/2" chamber and a barrel that must be 40" long. Box mag of course.

Gough thomas, the famous shooter and engineer, reckoned bolt action shotguns were actually very good, its just the double barrel got in first and the rest is history.

juice1304

It is pretty funny actually. there has been a chinese copy of the 870 been around for about ten years with a mag. So remington are making a copy of the chinese copy of their own firearm.

Nekarsulm

A lad turned up at our clay club with his grandfather's old gun. (It was passed on to his father, and after his death on go the grandson. Bit of Garda hassle getting the licence, but he persevered).
Not your usual clay gun, an old Enfield converted to 410

Got more attention on the day than any other gun, especially from a retired Army guy.

Cass

juice1304 wrote: »

So remington are making a copy of the chinese copy of their own firearm.

That;d be some lawsuit. Who sues whom?

gunny123

Cass wrote: »

That;d be some lawsuit. Who sues whom?

Nah, the chinese don't bother with patents and lawsuits and all that rubbish. If you send a design to china to have it manufactured, within a month or two, a thinly disguised rip-off copy comes out shortly afterwards.

Grizzly 45

juice1304 wrote: »

It is pretty funny actually. there has been a Chinese copy of the 870 been around for about ten years with a mag. So Remington are making a copy of the Chinese copy of their own firearm.

The Chinese 870, they are ab sol ute ly CRAP!:) Even by Chinese standards this thing is rubbish. German gun mags slated it...Not to mind the few that are in the US are hammered on youtube.The box fed Chinese 870 cant be imported into the US courtesy of the Klinton /Chinese trade import ban.Its why my Norinco MAK 90 went from about 200 $ to now 750$ and rising, as did the ww 2 GI quality steel framed Norinco 1911 models are now getting good money.The Chinese just seem to like copying good firearms cheaply ,they even have an AR15 copy nowadays.Where they expect the market to be for their stuff,is anyones guess.

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

There is a marlin bolt action shotgun in ballistech in Wexford. 3 1/2" chamber and a barrel that must be 40" long. Box mag of course.

Gough thomas, the famous shooter and engineer, reckoned bolt action shotguns were actually very good, its just the double barrel got in first and the rest is history.

Marlin Goose gun.AKA a smoothbore Flack gun, for shooting high flying geese or bombers down.:D Was even a Super Goose version in 10 gauge.Mossberg even made a 40 in barrel for the 500 series once.

Compared to a double barrel,bolt action is matchlock reloading speed.Think how fast you can get 2 shots off with a double barrel,is because of its separate lock works and their simplicity,cock,hold, drop a hammer onto the pin.Bolt action ,turn lift up,move rearwards,cock bolt ,extract ,eject ,go forward,scoop up fresh shell,go into battery,drop down and lock bolt ,pull trigger,fire,repeat.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Have you seen the latest batch of regulations California introduced on Jan 1st? Not surprising they're moving. I can see them becoming gun free within the next decade. Exactly where they want to be.

In a decade time, that state will be either North Mexico, or it will be the 51st state with all the Liberals ensconced in a new gun free, gender fluid,welfare state going from San Fransisco down to a few miles short of Oceanside north of San Diego.There is actually a movement to divide CA into 2 states,[and more power to them as well] As the rural inland Californians are sick and tired of the coastal Liberals ruining the place with their idiocy.It has been going downhill since I lived there in the late 80s early 90s, and now the trouble is Liberals ,not happy with the high taxesto pay for their chosen lifestyle in CA are all sodding off into parts of AZ, NM, NV and ruining those states with their CA entitlement mentality.:mad:







[

Cass

gunny123 wrote: »

Nah, the chinese don't bother with patents and lawsuits and all that rubbish. .

I know, just thought it'd be funny to see.

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The Chinese 870, they are ab sol ute ly CRAP!:) Even by Chinese standards this thing is rubbish. German gun mags slated it...Not to mind the few that are in the US are hammered on youtube.The box fed Chinese 870 cant be imported into the US courtesy of the Klinton /Chinese trade import ban.Its why my Norinco MAK 90 went from about 200 $ to now 750$ and rising, as did the ww 2 GI quality steel framed Norinco 1911 models are now getting good money.The Chinese just seem to like copying good firearms cheaply ,they even have an AR15 copy nowadays.Where they expect the market to be for their stuff,is anyones guess.

Some firearms made in china arnt too shabby you see a lot of norinco and "puma" .22lrs here theres nothing wrong with them, also those norinco 1911s were popular for a base of a custom 1911 in the US were they not?
One thing china has over other countries is cheap high quality steel

Norinco has been making m16s since right after Vietnam when they got a hold of captured US m16s They started making AR-15 copies years ago to sell to the Canadian market which they still do same with their M14 copies etc
You see alot of chinese particularly Norinco firearms in Canada and they seem to have a good reputation there

Grizzly 45

I had a Norinco MAK 90 over in the CA "sporterised" version[with the gross thumbhole stock] and indeed there is nothing wrong with them, just heavy as they are a milled rather than stamped receiver.From what I see, bar the Garand, Norinco has copied the following.
Winchester 1897 shotgun, Ithaca mod 37 shotgun, Remington 870, Colt Woodsman .22 pistol, Colt model 1911, Mauser K98, M14, SKS, MAK 90, the Chinese army Bullpup AK, and the AR15?

Yes, the 1911 is again a milled steel receiver.I have one sitting in storage here, as it didn't make the Nov 08 ban:mad: It's fit and finish equates a ww2 era 1911. [Close enough for Govt work,it will work, most times when you pull the trigger] They were cheap and cheerful and customizable alright as you said.Until Mr Clinton closed down the import firearm market and stopped cheap Chinese imports of firearms.
They might have cheap and good [??] steel, made from our Western scrap, but heat treating it seems to be beyond them.I have a Chinese log splitter built on an I beam.The beam is now warped by splitting a few big rounds of knotty oak.Stuff the same Western model sneers at.Ask folks still about the Norinco M14 receivers that weren't heat treated properly..Maybe they have sorted it out by now??I suppose it's what you pay is what you get.You want cheap, they are happy to oblige, but don't expect a warranty if the thing is defective.Go buy another:p

Cass

Was watching the video for the Mossberg again and looking at the 20 round mag i can't help but think, no fecking way.

20 rounds is a heavy lump to have hanging from under the shotgun not to mention its bulky and cumbersome. If you had two of three of them with you it'd be an awkward weight to be carrying. Then the size of the mag makes it look like it'd be awkward to carry or manoeuvre.

Not trying to pick fault, but again i see it as a solution to a non existent problem.

juice1304

Cass wrote: »

Was watching the video for the Mossberg again and looking at the 20 round mag i can't help but think, no fecking way.

20 rounds is a heavy lump to have hanging from under the shotgun not to mention its bulky and cumbersome. If you had two of three of them with you it'd be an awkward weight to be carrying. Then the size of the mag makes it look like it'd be awkward to carry or manoeuvre.

Not trying to pick fault, but again i see it as a solution to a non existent problem.

Its simply for ipsc/3gun matches etc..

Grizzly 45

Or combat/police work..Which is what the original concept harks back to in the 1960s and Vietnam...Much easier to drop a box mag, than stuff a tube with individual rounds.TBH, these box loaders, within reason shouldn't swing too bad, as the weight is centred rather than forward. Compared to some IPSC guns with mags longer than the barrel,or rotary contraptions with 10 shots per tube.

Could see one being a damn good PDW, or for bodygaurd work if it was shortened to 12 ins and pistol gripped or had a top folding stock,a couple of 5 or 10 rounders, could fit nicely in a daypack or car footwell.

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

...,and Dunblane happened to kill off handguns in the UK.

Except in Northern Ireland. Black powder loose-loading handguns of all kinds are also permitted.

tac

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

Except in Northern Ireland. Black powder loose-loading handguns of all kinds are also permitted.

tac

And the Isle of Man and Channel islands. Quite a few centrefire pistols have been licenced for humane dispatch also, i have tried to find out how many, but its difficult to find out.

I also read they are stopping licencing semi-auto pistols, revolvers from now on i am told, with only one chamber operable.

Grizzly 45

Kind of amazed it took them that long when for humane dispatch, it could be argued that a Derringer type pistol would be all you need.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Kind of amazed it took them that long when for humane dispatch, it could be argued that a Derringer type pistol would be all you need.

A glock with a magazine restricted to one or two rounds was the thing to use for hd, but i think some smart ass was caught with a full sized magazine. Cannot do that with a revolver.

Grizzly 45

Why is there always some Gob****e out there that has to fuk it up for the rest of us by boasting, running their stupid gobs off, or not keeping their illegal bits and pieces VERY quiet??:mad:
If you have something you shouldn't have, please STRFU, and keep it from public view.We don't want to know about it.