Liabilty Insurance

Insurance12

Hi who would I ring to get full insurance for in the case I am in and accident and it's my fault. My bike is covered on my house insurance but that doesn't cover liability if I happen to cause damage to a car or person. I was wondering for a case like I fell on black ice and damaged a persons car fell onto a person on the path beside the road.

Lusk_Doyle

Get a CI licence. Public liability is covered on it. Check the website for details:

Www.cyclingireland.ie

Fighting Tao

Insurance12 wrote: »

Hi who would I ring to get full insurance for in the case I am in and accident and it's my fault. My bike is covered on my house insurance but that doesn't cover liability if I happen to cause damage to a car or person. I was wondering for a case like I fell on black ice and damaged a persons car fell onto a person on the path beside the road.

Are you sure your house insurance doesn’t cover you. I know a guy that had a claim against him when he hit injured someone when he hit them with ball while playing golf and his house insurance covered it.

Insurance12

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Get a CI licence. Public liability is covered on it. Check the website for details:

Thanks I didn't realise I could get that as a commuter I thought it was just for racers and events.

Insurance12

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Insurance12 wrote: »

Hi who would I ring to get full insurance for in the case I am in and accident and it's my fault. My bike is covered on my house insurance but that doesn't cover liability if I happen to cause damage to a car or person. I was wondering for a case like I fell on black ice and damaged a persons car fell onto a person on the path beside the road.

Are you sure your house insurance doesn’t cover you. I know a guy that had a claim against him when he hit injured someone when he hit them with ball while playing golf and his house insurance covered it.

I got the impression it would just cover the thief of the bike my commuting bike isn't even on it as I bought it second hand and was too old with no receipt so they only added my good bike.

magicbastarder

my house insurance comes with personal liability cover. this is separate from the insurance which covers my bike under general contents - it's covered for theft from the house (i chose not to insure it outside the house)

exactly what the CI insurance does/does not cover has come up for debate multiple times here.
also, exempting the recent case where someone sued a cyclist, i'd be curious to know how often it happens in ireland that a cyclist has had to make use of their insurance to cover such damage.

Insurance12

I would just want to be covered after the case in England and that case in Dublin while I obey the rules of the road having insurance in case the the worst happened like slipping on black ice or the likes and did big damage to a car or hit on human on the way down is not something I could afford to pay out if sued.
What might be missing from the CI insurance? I will ring AXA and the car insurance places Monday and see it they offer a bike insurance like the car ones.

Insurance12

[font=arial, verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]From the Cycling Ireland website:
[/font]

[font=arial, verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]Leisure membership (also known as a non-competition licence) covers you while you are out training, on club spins, and while participating in leisure / sportive events. The fee is €50 if you are based in Leinster, Munster or Connacht. The fee for Ulster members is €56/£50.

Insurance cover and benefits for a leisure member are the same as any other membership option but this licence will not allow you to participate in competitive event



[/font][font=arial, verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]That kinda sounds like it would not cover my commuting.
[/font]

magicbastarder

this is from the standard zurich home insurance policy (under 'what is insured' - it does not make mention of whether the accident is inside or outside the home):

16.
Liability to the public.
Any amounts which you, as owner of the premises, become legally liable to pay as compensation for an accident occurring during the period of insurance which causes bodily injury to a person or accidental loss of or damage to property. The most we will pay for any one claim or number of claims arising from one cause is €1,300,000 plus costs agreed by us in writing.

https://www.zurich.ie/home-insurance-policy-document-oct-17.pdf

Insurance12

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is from the standard zurich home insurance policy (under 'what is insured' - it does not make mention of whether the accident is inside or outside the home):

My home insurance is just renters contents so I don't think I get that kinda cover.

magicbastarder

my concern would be that taking out public liability insurance (if the CI insurance above is not enough) is enough of a rarity in ireland that the insurance company would immediately assume you've something to hide (so to speak) and will assume you're doing it because you consider yourself at high risk of being sued.

Insurance12

I guess if I did serious damage in an accident they wouldn't be able to get blood out of a stone, my good bike is the most expensive thing I own and rent with a minimum wage job means there is nothing to collect. Was thinking of that poor old man in Dublin and if I came off on black ice on the road and went into the path on the way down an took out an old person I would like to be covered for them.

The CI insurance doesn't seem to cover commuting at all, I will ring on Monday to AXA and the likes hopefully they understand I just want to be a responsible commuter as my bike is my only mode of transport but I am surprised there is not much know on how to get liability cover for cyclists I cannot be the first to want it.

Kaisr Sose

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is from the standard zurich home insurance policy (under 'what is insured' - it does not make mention of whether the accident is inside or outside the home):


https://www.zurich.ie/home-insurance-policy-document-oct-17.pdf

I would always read those terms as referring to cover in and about the insured premises. (Cover for tradesmen working/ visitors or people struck by debris (eg tiles from roof/falling tree) from the premises. I may be wrong.

It should be possible to have/get third party cover – no questions asked. It’s common/recommended to have such cover in Germany/Switzerland. We are so far behind on things like this.

Tenzor07

Insurance12 wrote: »

I guess if I did serious damage in an accident they wouldn't be able to get blood out of a stone, my good bike is the most expensive thing I own and rent with a minimum wage job means there is nothing to collect. Was thinking of that poor old man in Dublin and if I came off on black ice on the road and went into the path on the way down an took out an old person I would like to be covered for them.The CI insurance doesn't seem to cover commuting at all, I will ring on Monday to AXA and the likes hopefully they understand I just want to be a responsible commuter as my bike is my only mode of transport but I am surprised there is not much know on how to get liability cover for cyclists I cannot be the first to want it.

Make sure you get Pedestrian insurance also in case you trip up whilst walking and fall over someone...

Insurance12

Come on now, I commute everywhere and an accident at speed be it on ice or any other reason could really hurt someone, is wanting to get insurance for protection that much of issue? I mean the story of the old man in Dublin and seeing a woman go down on black ice recently made me think it would be a good idea as I realise going into someone at speed can do them and me serious damage and would like cover I am not saying it should be mandatory just I would like to get it.

Insurance12

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Insurance12 wrote: »

Come on now, I commute everywhere and an accident at speed be it on ice or any other reason could really hurt someone, is wanting to get insurance for protection that much of issue? I mean the story of the old man in Dublin and seeing a woman go down on black ice recently made me think it would be a good idea as I realise going into someone at speed can do them and me serious damage and would like cover I am not saying it should be mandatory just I would like to get it.

Should have Road Tax and licence plates too, you know, in case you happen to not see someone whilst cycling?

How is that the same as wanting to get insurance cover for if the worst happens, I am not forcing you to get cover just I think I would like the peace of mind of having it.

Insurance12

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Insurance12 wrote: »

Come on now, I commute everywhere and an accident at speed be it on ice or any other reason could really hurt someone, is wanting to get insurance for protection that much of issue? I mean the story of the old man in Dublin and seeing a woman go down on black ice recently made me think it would be a good idea as I realise going into someone at speed can do them and me serious damage and would like cover I am not saying it should be mandatory just I would like to get it.

Should have Road Tax and licence plates too, you know, in case you happen to not see someone whilst cycling?

How is that the same as wanting to get insurance cover for if the worst happens, I am not forcing you to get cover just I think I would like the peace of mind of having it.

magicbastarder

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

It should be possible to have/get third party cover – no questions asked. It’s common/recommended to have such cover in Germany/Switzerland. We are so far behind on things like this.

sure, they have it - to what end? how often do people need recourse to such insurance if being sued due to causing accidents while cycling or just going about their personal business?
i work with germans. they (generic use - not all of them) *love* paperwork, and love the idea of spending loads of time discussing and accounting for marginal situations.

Fighting Tao

Insurance12 wrote: »

Come on now, I commute everywhere and an accident at speed be it on ice or any other reason could really hurt someone, is wanting to get insurance for protection that much of issue? I mean the story of the old man in Dublin and seeing a woman go down on black ice recently made me think it would be a good idea as I realise going into someone at speed can do them and me serious damage and would like cover I am not saying it should be mandatory just I would like to get it.

So there is one case of a cyclist being at fault and it warrants insurance. There have been collisions and even a cyclist death where a pedestrian was at fault. Shouldn’t you get pedestrian insurance too just in case?

Insurance12

magicbastarder wrote: »

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

It should be possible to have/get third party cover – no questions asked. It’s common/recommended to have such cover in Germany/Switzerland. We are so far behind on things like this.

sure, they have it - to what end? how often do people need recourse to such insurance if being sued due to causing accidents while cycling or just going about their personal business?
i work with germans. they (generic use - not all of them) *love* paperwork, and love the idea of spending loads of time discussing and accounting for marginal situations.

With Irish compo culture thinking paying €50 a year for if the worst happened  is something I would think worthwhile and useful to have is not a bad idea, I got renters content insurance and while most in Ireland don't I thought it was worth it for if the worst happens I am not saying these insurance packages should be mandatory but surely some cyclists must have got liability insurance, cycling is my only mode of transport I use it daily for cycle a few hours.
I think of it like I would pay extra for full car insurance rather then just third party if I got a car  as I would like to be covered if the worst should happen.

Insurance12

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Insurance12 wrote: »

Come on now, I commute everywhere and an accident at speed be it on ice or any other reason could really hurt someone, is wanting to get insurance for protection that much of issue? I mean the story of the old man in Dublin and seeing a woman go down on black ice recently made me think it would be a good idea as I realise going into someone at speed can do them and me serious damage and would like cover I am not saying it should be mandatory just I would like to get it.

So there is one case of a cyclist being at fault and it warrants insurance. There have been collisions and even a cyclist death where a pedestrian was at fault. Shouldn’t  you get pedestrian insurance too just in case?

If AXA or the likes offer a general cycle and walking liability package I will get that one as it wouldn't hurt I guess but I spend far more time cycling versus walking and there is greater chance of damage if the accident was while on my bike.

uck51js9zml2yt

Insurance12 wrote: »

I guess if I did serious damage in an accident they wouldn't be able to get blood out of a stone, my good bike is the most expensive thing I own and rent with a minimum wage job means there is nothing to collect. Was thinking of that poor old man in Dublin and if I came off on black ice on the road and went into the path on the way down an took out an old person I would like to be covered for them.

The CI insurance doesn't seem to cover commuting at all, I will ring on Monday to AXA and the likes hopefully they understand I just want to be a responsible commuter as my bike is my only mode of transport but I am surprised there is not much know on how to get liability cover for cyclists I cannot be the first to want it.

I checked with CI recently.commuing is covered

Kaisr Sose

magicbastarder wrote: »

sure, they have it - to what end? how often do people need recourse to such insurance if being sued due to causing accidents while cycling or just going about their personal business?
i work with germans. they (generic use - not all of them) *love* paperwork, and love the idea of spending loads of time discussing and accounting for marginal situations.

Is that not the whole point of having it? For the time you need it?

When on holiday, we all generally have travel insurance. Mostly it’s not needed. So it’s a waste of money/expense ? Try having an accident or medical issue in a foreign county without it.

CramCycle

Insurance12 wrote: »

With Irish compo culture thinking paying €50 a year for if the worst happened  is something I would think worthwhile and useful to have is not a bad idea, I got renters content insurance and while most in Ireland don't I thought it was worth it for if the worst happens I am not saying these insurance packages should be mandatory but surely some cyclists must have got liability insurance, cycling is my only mode of transport I use it daily for cycle a few hours.
I think of it like I would pay extra for full car insurance rather then just third party if I got a car  as I would like to be covered if the worst should happen.

There is no way it would only cost 50euro, the paperwork, and set up of such a scheme means that you are looking on par with low cost motor insurance to cover you, particularly if you are the only person using it.

Insurance12

CramCycle wrote: »

Insurance12 wrote: »

With Irish compo culture thinking paying €50 a year for if the worst happened  is something I would think worthwhile and useful to have is not a bad idea, I got renters content insurance and while most in Ireland don't I thought it was worth it for if the worst happens I am not saying these insurance packages should be mandatory but surely some cyclists must have got liability insurance, cycling is my only mode of transport I use it daily for cycle a few hours.
I think of it like I would pay extra for full car insurance rather then just third party if I got a car  as I would like to be covered if the worst should happen.

The cycle Ireland one is only €50 if that covers commuting, needs to be confirmed and I cannot be the only commuter who has though insurance might be a good idea in the case of an accident.

usernamegoes

Fighting Tao wrote: »

So there is one case of a cyclist being at fault and it warrants insurance. There have been collisions and even a cyclist death where a pedestrian was at fault. Shouldn’t you get pedestrian insurance too just in case?

It should be common place for people to have public liability insurance for damages they cause to others regardless of how it happens. Why should the person you injure have to pay for your mistake?

CramCycle

Insurance12 wrote: »

CramCycle wrote: »

The cycle Ireland one is only €50 if that covers commuting, needs to be confirmed and I cannot be the only commuter who has though insurance might be a good idea in the case of an accident.

It was quoted at the AGM as covering commuting this year. I am talking about a non existent one being set up for all scenarios, and that said insurer needs to cover costs and would only do it to make a profit. The Ci Insurance has been loss making for a few years now and is rising to accommodate this.

usernamegoes wrote: »

It should be common place for people to have public liability insurance for damages they cause to others regardless of how it happens. Why should the person you injure have to pay for your mistake?

So basically, everyone should just have insurance. Simple as. In this case, your typical pedestrian policy would cover your cycling or it would be an add on.

Are you saying that pedestrians should have insurance?

Fighting Tao

usernamegoes wrote: »

It should be common place for people to have public liability insurance for damages they cause to others regardless of how it happens. Why should the person you injure have to pay for your mistake?

So the government should force everyone to have personal liability insurance, even kids?

Insurance12

CramCycle wrote: »

It was quoted at the AGM as covering commuting this year. I am talking about a non existent one being set up for all scenarios, and that said insurer needs to cover costs and would only do it to make a profit. The Ci Insurance has been loss making for a few years now and is rising to accommodate this.

I will shoot them an email to get written confirmation it does as I not a member of any club and if it does I will get a membership and tell them they should update the site to make it clear, I just wanted some security for if the worst happens and am not sure why the hostility to insurance from some people though.

usernamegoes

Fighting Tao wrote: »

So the government should force everyone to have personal liability insurance, even kids?

No they shouldn't force them. But if you or your kids injure someone you should have to pay for it and if you don't have insurance all other means should be taken to enforce the debt. Do you think if you injure someone they should have to pay it? Say you break someone's neck though your negligence? Should they suffer the financial burden while you pay nothing?

Chips Lovell

It covers commuting alright.

Insurance12

Cool so if  I scrape a car filtering or came off in ice and banged one they will pay to repair the car, if so it seems like a good deal.

rollingscone

Insurance12 wrote: »

Hi who would I ring to get full insurance for in the case I am in and accident and it's my fault. My bike is covered on my house insurance but that doesn't cover liability if I happen to cause damage to a car or person. I was wondering for a case like I fell on black ice and damaged a persons car fell onto a person on the path beside the road.

Check the all risks section of your household policy. This covers most third party liabilities and often extends outside of the house.

E.g. It's also what covers you if your dog runs out and causes an accident.

magicbastarder

Insurance12 wrote: »

Cool so if  I scrape a car filtering or came off in ice and banged one they will pay to repair the car, if so it seems like a good deal.

first question i'd have - what's the excess?
you might you'd still have to stump up for the majority of the damage in the above two scenarios, even if you have insurance.

Insurance12

magicbastarder wrote: »

Insurance12 wrote: »

Cool so if  I scrape a car filtering or came off in ice and banged one they will pay to repair the car, if so it seems like a good deal.

first question i'd have - what's the excess?
you might you'd still have to stump up for the majority of the damage in the above two scenarios, even if you have insurance.

Can anyone with a CI confirm the excess.

magicbastarder

i suspect this is a big issue with the concept of cyclist insurance; i think my excess, on both car and house insurance, is about €250.
to deter trivial claims, it's possible there's something similar on CI insurance - and for commuting for many people, the speeds they're travelling at might suggest the considerable majority of incidents would never exceed the excess, in terms of damage done.

i once cycled into the back of a taxi at maybe 25km/h - i wasn't really paying attention to the damage done to his car, but i think i left a very small dent in the bumper and possibly cracked a rear light. i'd certainly have been out of pocket for most of the damage had the excess been €250 or thereabouts.

Tenzor07

usernamegoes wrote: »

No they shouldn't force them. But if you or your kids injure someone you should have to pay for it and if you don't have insurance all other means should be taken to enforce the debt. Do you think if you injure someone they should have to pay it? Say you break someone's neck though your negligence? Should they suffer the financial burden while you pay nothing?

Sorry but that's total Horseradish!

Your kids injuring someone??

You accidently break someone's neck?

Jesus wept!

Insurance12

I cost you less then €250 to replace the light, remove the dent and get a respray? I would have thought the respray alone would be more tan €250.

How did you come to an agreement on payment with the driver?

magicbastarder

he dropped me home and never asked for a penny. forgot the 'if' in the post.

Insurance12

magicbastarder wrote: »

he dropped me home and never asked for a penny. forgot the 'if' in the post.

Lucky the repair cost would have been quite high if he wanted you to repair it.

Tenzor07

Insurance12 wrote: »

Cool so if  I scrape a car filtering or came off in ice and banged one they will pay to repair the car, if so it seems like a good deal.

Ok, i'll play...

So you're a pretty unfortunate cyclist, you scrape a parked car, are you going to write down your insurance details and leave them on the windshield?
So off you toddle happy as larry that your 50 quid insurance will pay out for say €350 worth of paint damage..
Then the next month you knock the mirror of a Merc while filtering in traffic, and boy they ain't cheap! So another €700 for the mirror...
Wow you're really clocking up the claims eh?

So insurance company says, renewal time, oh €750 for the year please... Ah but my bicycle is worth €500... Opps!

usernamegoes

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Sorry but that's total Horseradish!

Your kids injuring someone??

You accidently break someone's neck?

Jesus wept!

What am I missing? Is it not possible to accidentally injure someone or damage their property? I'm not sure what your point is other than you don't like the idea of personal responsibility?

I'm not only talking about cyclists but here's a recent case.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/pedestrian-sued-cyclist-over-injuries-suffered-when-he-was-knocked-down-by-bike-on-footpath-36509443.html

Tenzor07

usernamegoes wrote: »

What am I missing? Is it not possible to accidentally injure someone? I'm not sure what your point is other than you don't like the idea of personal responsibility?

Can you give any Actual examples of what you just stated in your previous post? Kids injuring adults, people going around accidently breaking someone else's necks?

magicbastarder

Insurance12 wrote: »

Lucky the repair cost would have been quite high if he wanted you to repair it.

the dent in the bumper was literally a mm or two deep. rear light, couple of hundred quid maybe.

Insurance12

Tenzor07 wrote: »

usernamegoes wrote: »

What am I missing? Is it not possible to accidentally injure someone? I'm not sure what your point is other than you don't like the idea of personal responsibility?

Can you give any Actual examples of what you just stated in your previous post? Kids injuring adults, people going around accidently breaking someone else's necks?

Kids have run out in front of bike causing the rider to go down, who should pay for the damage to the bike and person?

Tenzor07

Insurance12 wrote: »

Kids have run out in front of bike causing the rider to go down, who should pay for the damage to the bike and person?

So how exactly can you hold a minor legally liable in that case?

Insurance12

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Insurance12 wrote: »

Kids have run out in front of bike causing the rider to go down, who should pay for the damage to the bike and person?

So how exactly can you hold a minor legally liable in that case?

Sue the legal guardians?

magicbastarder

a brave new world.

how much of an issue is this, that we will need to put structures in place to allow for a 5 year old causing an accident?
at what point does the solution to a problem start to completely and utterly outweigh the supposed problem?

rollingscone

usernamegoes wrote: »

What am I missing? Is it not possible to accidentally injure someone or damage their property? I'm not sure what your point is other than you don't like the idea of personal responsibility?

I'm not only talking about cyclists but here's a recent case.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/pedestrian-sued-cyclist-over-injuries-suffered-when-he-was-knocked-down-by-bike-on-footpath-36509443.html

Yes. Lets start charging people to use public spaces. In case they might injure someone.

Why aren't kids paying road tax. How can we capture the value in breathing?

People talk about personal responsibility as if we exist in a vacuum and choose every variable in our lives.

Another grubby legal professional looking for another insurer to fleece does not a sound basis for policy make. If anything the case (aside from ignoring the culpability of our horrific conflict generating infrastructure) shows the need to reconsider our current tort model where private insurance is becoming unfeasible for consumers and for many profit driven insurers who are fleeing the market and look at alternative models such as public third party liability and actual ethical supervision of the legal profession.

Tenzor07

Insurance12 wrote: »

Sue the legal guardians?

So firstly how to do you prove that the child acted in a grossly irresponsible manner which lead to the accident?

And also was the child fully aware that there actions would lead to a collision between themselves and an adult?

Otherwise they cannot be culpable, young children by their very nature are irrational, impetuous and utterly unpredictable, so how do you prove they acted with intent to cause the collision?
As a grown adult you have the greater responsibility to ensure your actions and movement do not cross the path of the child so as to cause an incident...

So if you can't prove culpability of the child then legally you haven't a leg to stand on so to speak.

Tenzor07

rollingscone wrote: »

Yes. Lets start charging people to use public spaces. In case they might injure someone.
Why aren't kids paying road tax. How can we capture the value in breathing?
People talk about personal responsibility as if we exist in a vacuum and choose every variable in our lives.
Another grubby legal professional looking for another insurer to fleece does not a sound basis for policy make. If anything the case (aside from ignoring the culpability of our horrific conflict generating infrastructure) shows the need to reconsider our current tort model where private insurance is becoming unfeasible for consumers and for many profit driven insurers who are fleeing the market and look at alternative models such as public third party liability and actual ethical supervision of the legal profession.

Ireland is turning into a really horrible litigious society, not far behind America i'd say!

Someone is always to blame for whatever misfortune should happen to us, slipped in the supermarket(because you ignored the wet floor sign).. Claim!... Bus driver had to hit the brakes and you hit your leg or something (because you didn't hold the handrail).. Claim!... Tripped up on the footpath(because you weren't looking).. Claim!