A3 rated house - Hard to heat, Draughty, Cold.

ted1

who what when wrote: »

pwurple wrote: »

BER ratings might as well be toilet paper. 
You would expect that to get a value they might put a heat emitting device in the house, and measure temp loss or gain, take readings of air movements. Something scientific. Naw. None of that happens. It's a  subjective survey. 
They count the number of light bulbs for goodness sake, and take no notice of whether there is a gaping hole in a wall. Windows are rated based on the glass, no note is taken of how they were fitted, or the sealing done. 
Did you get an engineers report, this should have detailed the construction and finish.

This is exactly the issue. My own house is built to an A2 standard and while its generally quiet comfortable its definitely not as cosy as you would be led to believe it should be.

It might be built to a a2 spec , but it might not be to standard. Dodgy builders

robp

sydthebeat wrote: »

vzkfec7ogp4s6r wrote: »

BER rating? Total and utter rubbish. I got the walls pumped and ceilings insulated and dropped a rating.

It's a subjective test, misses major improvements.

Its anything but a subjective test.... In fact it's designed to take as much subjectivity out of it that they can. There main gripe on here about it is that it's not subjective... It doesn't take into account how well Windows are fitted, or if there's sockets allowing draughts in.

Its not a prefect system by any means, but it's way better than having nothing in its place.

To the op I would say huge following :

You mention draughts between the block work and plasterboard.... Are all the external walls plasterboard? It has been said here many many times that a new build with internal drylining is a terrible form of construction. It leads to poor air tightness unless extra work is carried out... It sounds like your house has been poorly constructed.

All is not lost however. You can get an air tightness test carried out as it is, and get all the locations of draughts identified and fixed. Lots of caulk, probably some fillers, probably some tape.... But you'll notice a huge improvement after. You might have to caulk seal every length of skirting and architrave, every window board and window ope, pipes extruding from the walls both internally and externally etc.

Until you measure it, you can't solve it.

I am interested in this topic as it maybe an issue as it may pertain to my A2 2017 build. It is hard to get the house in question above °C. How much does air tightness testing approximately cost for the typical 3 bed semi detached house? What kind of professional can you give your house specs to check if it is well designed?

vintagecosmos

Hi all. Op here. Thanks for all the responses. I'll get a reply in today.

PerryB78

Hi Op, sorry to hear of your issues, I can sympathise as I've faced similar problems and still do. Without naming the development, could you tell me where it is?

ArnieSilvia

vzkfec7ogp4s6r wrote:

I think it's a tax. Also house buyers are fooled by the rating.

Well, my house which is A2, proves the point that the BER rating works. Freezing outside last couple of days, and heating been on couple of minutes per day. Temp drop from 21 to 19 degrees over 24 hrs with outside temps below 4.

Shameless plug - it's currently for sale sadly

listermint

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

Well, my house which is A2, proves the point that the BER rating works. Freezing outside last couple of days, and heating been on couple of minutes per day. Temp drop from 21 to 19 degrees over 24 hrs with outside temps below 4.

Shameless plug - it's currently for sale sadly

No it doesnt.

Sorry but your anecdote is wrong


Your house proves the builder knew what they were doing during construction which is applying appropriate basic construction methods to the house


There is nothing to stop the house next door to you have been constructed by a different set of lads. In the same estate....

Lumen

The BER just papers over the cracks of the primary information problem, which is that when you buy a house you have no idea what it's going to cost to heat.

This is trivially solvable for second hand houses by the energy companies publishing the billed amounts to a public website with lookup by MPRN, going back five years. You still wouldn't know what temperature the house had been maintained at, but at least you'd have real data.

That wouldn't help the sale of new houses, but the solution there is published airtightness testing on every new build (and I don't mean just for the homeowner, stick it on a public website the same as the energy data). Sure, it would push up construction costs ever so slightly, but at least it would deliver real benefits to both the home owners and Ireland's future climate change liabilities. If you can test one in four you can do all of them, it's the same skill applied more frequently.

None of this is difficult to implement, it just requires recognition of the problem and the will to fix it.

Shedite27

I think I've a similar problem. A2 house (2 year old newbuild), one of the bedrooms is a different temperature to the rest of the house. My hunch is that there's air getting in/out around the windowframes. Notice it moreso when there's windy nights so pretty convinced it's a draft

1. Is there any easy test for me to confirm this?
2. Who do I need to fix this? I can get the builders details, but should it be anyone in particular that I'm looking for?

Metric Tensor

Every one off house is already tested for air tightness. (Or should be by law!) It's only within estates that 1 in 4 is allowed and even then it's only if the houses are the same. So it's one in four of each house type.

I see no reason not to AT test them all - in total agreement with that. It costs about 400-500 per house and I guarantee big developers are paying less than that when doing an estate! No reason why the BER Cert couldn't include a line for the tested AT value. That would be very helpful in my opinion.

Lumen

Shedite27 wrote: »

I think I've a similar problem. A2 house (2 year old newbuild), one of the bedrooms is a different temperature to the rest of the house

If you've got a cold attic with a tank over that bedroom it might be heat escaping into the attic space. It's normal to not insulate under the tank so that it doesn't freeze in winter.

vintagecosmos

minikin wrote: »

Have you a BER cert stating it’s A3 rated or was that just what was on estate agents blurb?

It is A3 rated. I have the cert.

pwurple wrote: »

BER ratings might as well be toilet paper. 
You would expect that to get a value they might put a heat emitting device in the house, and measure temp loss or gain, take readings of air movements. Something scientific. Naw. None of that happens. It's a  subjective survey. 
They count the number of light bulbs for goodness sake, and take no notice of whether there is a gaping hole in a wall. Windows are rated based on the glass, no note is taken of how they were fitted, or the sealing done. 
Did you get an engineers report, this should have detailed the construction and finish.

No engineers report. Have a folder with drawings and that. The BER report mentions the different headings i.e. insulation, windows, ventilation etc and says it complies with the rating.

who what when wrote: »

This is exactly the issue. My own house is built to an A2 standard and while its generally quiet comfortable its definitely not as cosy as you would be led to believe it should be.

Yes I would have expected it to be very toasty and retain heat all night. If we turn off the heat in the evening by 3 or 4 am its quite cold.

NickNickleby wrote: »

Find the BER certificate that was given for your house, then check its authenticity here : https://ndber.seai.ie/pass/ber/search.aspx

Note that you can use the MNPR number if you can;t find the BER registration number.

Sounds like a poor BER assessment was carried out. Or is it the same as the Priory Hall sh!te , ie
'self assessment by the developer, who of course would ensure its accuracy'. - this is where I'd insert a "yeah,right" smiley if there was one.

I was typing my post, while other more knowledgeable people put up info. That's pretty shocking about the smoke and mirrors way of granting a rating.
Ignore my post, it adds nothing worthwhile in light of what I've just read above.
Apologies.

I pulled it out. It says all the right things. Local person did it. its genuine, but like many have said it looks at what there not how its fitted.

Metric Tensor wrote: »

It sounds like you have a problem with air-tightness OP. There is no way you will get an A2 or A3 rating without a good air-tightness value but in a development of similar houses the developer only needs to test 1 in every 4 houses. It sounds very much like yours was not one of the ones tested!!!

Basically all of those air gaps you described should be sealed tight. Is the builder gone? He'd be my first angle of approach if he's nearby and genuine.

One thing to note - a cold attic is perfectly ok if the insulation is at ceiling level. Everywhere else should be toasty!

100% this appears to be the problem. My house is in a cul de sac and a different design to other houses so I assume air tightness test was done on other houses. Mine was also one of the last finished. I moved in September, but the BER cert is dated July, which is odd I thought as systems were only commissioned in August.

BryanF wrote: »

1. Air-tightness &/or poorly fitted insulation
2. Yes
3. You tell us, you bought it
4. Good idea.

You might have misread my post, what I was getting at is the warranty is still in place. There is 6 months for minors and 12 months for major issues so I wanted to make sure if I went to the builder (who is still on site) that the issues are real and in fact serious enough.

sydthebeat wrote: »

Its anything but a subjective test.... In fact it's designed to take as much subjectivity out of it that they can. There main gripe on here about it is that it's not subjective... It doesn't take into account how well Windows are fitted, or if there's sockets allowing draughts in.

Its not a prefect system by any means, but it's way better than having nothing in its place.

To the op I would say huge following :

You mention draughts between the block work and plasterboard.... Are all the external walls plasterboard? It has been said here many many times that a new build with internal drylining is a terrible form of construction. It leads to poor air tightness unless extra work is carried out... It sounds like your house has been poorly constructed.

All is not lost however. You can get an air tightness test carried out as it is, and get all the locations of draughts identified and fixed. Lots of caulk, probably some fillers, probably some tape.... But you'll notice a huge improvement after. You might have to caulk seal every length of skirting and architrave, every window board and window ope, pipes extruding from the walls both internally and externally etc.

Until you measure it, you can't solve it.

The issue appears to be in the hallway, kitchen and attic. The gable walls (detached) are concrete but the wall at the back to the garden has french doors and then plasterboard all around the back wall. I would say that this back wall/area of the house is where the leakage is happening. i need to get some incense to try and see the draughts in the different areas. there is even some dust coming from around the doors and skirting (its blowing in). Its tiles mostly on the ground floor which really takes on the chill.

vintagecosmos

robp wrote: »

I am interested in this topic as it maybe an issue as it may pertain to my A2 2017 build. It is hard to get the house in question above °C. How much does air tightness testing approximately cost for the typical 3 bed semi detached house? What kind of professional can you give your house specs to check if it is well designed?

I looked online, there is some companies that come out and measure airtightness. I havent approached them yet. Migth consider it if the builder doesnt show an interest.

PerryB78 wrote: »

Hi Op, sorry to hear of your issues, I can sympathise as I've faced similar problems and still do. Without naming the development, could you tell me where it is?

In the Malahide/Swords area. Its a small enough development so I wont name it.

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

Well, my house which is A2, proves the point that the BER rating works. Freezing outside last couple of days, and heating been on couple of minutes per day. Temp drop from 21 to 19 degrees over 24 hrs with outside temps below 4.

Shameless plug - it's currently for sale sadly

Thats what I would expect. I have 2 zones for heating. Up and Down. And Nests installed. At 6am house can be 17-18 degrees. If I left the heat off all day I woudl come home in evening to about 16 degrees. It can take the house about 3 hours to reach 21 degrees. And if I switch off, it will return to about 18-19 in the space of 3 hours.

Shedite27 wrote: »

I think I've a similar problem. A2 house (2 year old newbuild), one of the bedrooms is a different temperature to the rest of the house. My hunch is that there's air getting in/out around the windowframes. Notice it moreso when there's windy nights so pretty convinced it's a draft

1. Is there any easy test for me to confirm this?
2. Who do I need to fix this? I can get the builders details, but should it be anyone in particular that I'm looking for?

I had an issue where there was a leak in the roof. Only during windy storms water would seep in. They re did the roof at christmas and it appears to have stopped. But I would wonder if the air tightness was affected. Google air tightness testing ireland and you might find what you are lookng for.

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Every one off house is already tested for air tightness. (Or should be by law!) It's only within estates that 1 in 4 is allowed and even then it's only if the houses are the same. So it's one in four of each house type.

I see no reason not to AT test them all - in total agreement with that. It costs about 400-500 per house and I guarantee big developers are paying less than that when doing an estate! No reason why the BER Cert couldn't include a line for the tested AT value. That would be very helpful in my opinion.

Yes I would assume mine was not tested. Its a different design to others and most in the estate are Semi D and mine is detached. Yes AT test on the BER would have been very helpful.

vintagecosmos

Thanks for all your replies folks. Im going to have a look at discussing air tightness test with the builder. If I have to bring in someone to test it, I will.

Interesting debate on the BER cert. It does appear to be another quango paying lip service to the EU. I can see the value in it, but the test does seem flawed if it only looks at the components and not how they are all put together. It should be taken with a pinch (or fistful in my case) of salt it seems.

vintagecosmos

Just to add more detail. I borrowed a laser thermometer from a buddy and check the house.

It was about 1 degrees outside. Temperature at front door on the ground was showing as 8 degrees. surround walls about 15-17.

The kitchen area has 2 pairs of french doors. The temperature of the tiles by these doors was 8 degrees. The skirting board around the doors was 8 degrees too. Concrete walls were about 17/18.

It seems that there could be a cold bridge at these frenchdoors which is providing a chill into the room too. what would best practice be here?

vintagecosmos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shedite27 View Post
I think I've a similar problem. A2 house (2 year old newbuild), one of the bedrooms is a different temperature to the rest of the house. My hunch is that there's air getting in/out around the windowframes. Notice it moreso when there's windy nights so pretty convinced it's a draft

1. Is there any easy test for me to confirm this?
2. Who do I need to fix this? I can get the builders details, but should it be anyone in particular that I'm looking for?

I had an issue where there was a leak in the roof. Only during windy storms water would seep in. They re did the roof at christmas and it appears to have stopped. But I would wonder if the air tightness was affected. Google air tightness testing ireland and you might find what you are lookng for.

I spoke too soon. they heavy rain at the weekend has caused leaks worse than before...

Metric Tensor

Are we talking wall tiles or roof tiles when you say the tiles beside the door?

There's definitely a cold bridge of some sort with internal surface temps that low.

vintagecosmos

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Are we talking wall tiles or roof tiles when you say the tiles beside the door?

There's definitely a cold bridge of some sort with internal surface temps that low.

Floor tiles. there is tiles then the doors, and a step down to outside...

Lumen

vintagecosmos wrote: »

Just to add more detail. I borrowed a laser thermometer from a buddy and check the house.

It was about 1 degrees outside. Temperature at front door on the ground was showing as 8 degrees. surround walls about 15-17.

The kitchen area has 2 pairs of french doors. The temperature of the tiles by these doors was 8 degrees. The skirting board around the doors was 8 degrees too. Concrete walls were about 17/18.

It seems that there could be a cold bridge at these frenchdoors which is providing a chill into the room too. what would best practice be here?

For comparison, my 1980s house with vintage uPVC patio door currently has:

Outside: 7C
Inside air: 18C
Wall next to patio door: 14C
Timber floor in front of patio door: 14C

...also measured with one of those laser thermometers.

Given that it's 1980s construction I'm sure there is cold bridging all over the place. My walls are block with 100mm cavity partially filled with rigid polystyrene.

edit: actually I see that you have 1C outside, so the temp difference between outside and floor is 7C, which is the same as mine. Regardless, it is absolutely appalling that a contemporary build is this poor.

vintagecosmos

I checked other rooms without doors to the outside and the temperatures are fine.

So the cold spots appear to be around the doors.

I found this to be a good read and similar to my situation.

http://great-home.co.uk/french-door-draught-problems/
http://great-home.co.uk/draught-problems-battle-french-doors-part-2/

At a guess, there could be an issue with the insulation under the doors. I have a endoscope camera. (no FLIR Thermal Camera though). So ill have to have a look.

vintagecosmos

Another thing that has come up now from those two links, is the insulation of the mechanical heat recover ventilation. The unit is in the cold space of the roof (open venitlation to the outside world and very cold). If the unit is freezing, will it be pumping cold air continuously ? Shoudl this unit be insulated?

vintagecosmos

Managed to find a photo from when it was been built. I would guess that they just tiled over that gap. Would that be the norm?

Lumen

If you're looking for what's acceptable construction details, that's a thing.

http://www.housing.gov.ie/search/archived/current?query=Acceptable%20Construction%20Details

These relate to TGD Part L which is included in those search results.

Metric Tensor

It's not right - but it wouldn't be surprising!

They may even have been generous enough to throw in a load of expanding foam! (Which would be eff all help!)

vintagecosmos

Metric Tensor wrote: »

It's not right - but it wouldn't be surprising!

They may even have been generous enough to throw in a load of expanding foam! (Which would be eff all help!)

What would be the remedy then? Im dreading if it means pulling all the doors out

listermint

vintagecosmos wrote: »

What would be the remedy then? Im dreading if it means pulling all the doors out

If you are 100% the drafts are the doors you could try seeing if there is a draft around them with an incense stick (smoke the draft)

If that identifies them then you could use airtight tape like Contega SL (which is can be plastered over afterwards) to seal the corners.

If its getting in being the wallboard then the door reveals would have to come out and the tape applied before reapplying plasterboard over the reveals and replastering.

vintagecosmos

listermint wrote: »

If you are 100% the drafts are the doors you could try seeing if there is a draft around them with an incense stick (smoke the draft)

If that identifies them then you could use airtight tape like Contega SL (which is can be plastered over afterwards) to seal the corners.

If its getting in being the wallboard then the door reveals would have to come out and the tape applied before reapplying plasterboard over the reveals and replastering.

Thanks for that. As i suspected a big job and beyond my DIY capabiliites. Ill have to get the builder out. Ill do the incense test too.

Metric Tensor

The temperature of the tile surface will be related to lack of insulation/thermal bridging.

The draught is lack of air-tightness.

Two different (but partly related) problems and two different solutions.

You can't fix the insulation/cold bridging without removing the door. You might be able to fix the air-tightness as listermint has described above without removing the door - but it's still pretty invasive!

vintagecosmos

Just to ask, should the builder or the door company insulated correctly?

beauf

Metric Tensor wrote: »

....They may even have been generous enough to throw in a load of expanding foam! (Which would be eff all help!)

I'll ask the stupid question. Why does expanding foam not help with draughts around the frame? Hilti airtight expanding foam etc.

vintagecosmos

beauf wrote: »

I'll ask the stupid question. Why does expanding foam not help with draughts around the frame? Hilti airtight expanding foam etc.

I was afraid to ask...