A3 rated house - Hard to heat, Draughty, Cold.

vintagecosmos

Hi all,

Did a search and couldnt really find an answer. Looking for some advice.

Moved into a new build recently. A3 rated house, gas fired heating, solar panels, ventilation system etc.

However, the house can be draughty. The Blinds are moving in the kitchen, feels like it could be coming in under the skirting boards. When I took a plug out of the wall to pull some cables I found it very cool between the block work and the plasterboard.

I had to apply some rubber sealing to the front door which was allowing air in.

There is an alcove in the master with a door into the roof space and ventilation system. There is a mighty draught coming in under the door. The roof space itself is freezing and open to the world.

Overall it can take a while to heat the house and it seems the heat is lost quick enough. Am I wrong to think an A3 rated house would be retaining heat much better than this and be better sealed?

It is still under warranty and I was thinking to get a professional opinion if I knew there could be actual issues.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

VC

Kintarō Hattori

I'm no construction expert, saw the thread title and clicked in. I live in a B3 rated house and it's amazing. It takes a little heat to get the place toasty and it really retains it afterwards.

Last night for example the heating would have been last on before the baby went to bed around 8 pm and at 7 am this morning the house was still relatively warm with no heat having been used during the night.

minikin

Have you a BER cert stating it’s A3 rated or was that just what was on estate agents blurb?

pwurple

BER ratings might as well be toilet paper. 
You would expect that to get a value they might put a heat emitting device in the house, and measure temp loss or gain, take readings of air movements. Something scientific. Naw. None of that happens. It's a  subjective survey. 
They count the number of light bulbs for goodness sake, and take no notice of whether there is a gaping hole in a wall. Windows are rated based on the glass, no note is taken of how they were fitted, or the sealing done. 
Did you get an engineers report, this should have detailed the construction and finish.

who what when

pwurple wrote: »

BER ratings might as well be toilet paper. 
You would expect that to get a value they might put a heat emitting device in the house, and measure temp loss or gain, take readings of air movements. Something scientific. Naw. None of that happens. It's a  subjective survey. 
They count the number of light bulbs for goodness sake, and take no notice of whether there is a gaping hole in a wall. Windows are rated based on the glass, no note is taken of how they were fitted, or the sealing done. 
Did you get an engineers report, this should have detailed the construction and finish.

This is exactly the issue. My own house is built to an A2 standard and while its generally quiet comfortable its definitely not as cosy as you would be led to believe it should be.

NickNickleby

Find the BER certificate that was given for your house, then check its authenticity here : https://ndber.seai.ie/pass/ber/search.aspx

Note that you can use the MNPR number if you can;t find the BER registration number.

Sounds like a poor BER assessment was carried out. Or is it the same as the Priory Hall sh!te , ie
'self assessment by the developer, who of course would ensure its accuracy'. - this is where I'd insert a "yeah,right" smiley if there was one.

I was typing my post, while other more knowledgeable people put up info. That's pretty shocking about the smoke and mirrors way of granting a rating.
Ignore my post, it adds nothing worthwhile in light of what I've just read above.
Apologies.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

BER rating? Total and utter rubbish. I got the walls pumped and ceilings insulated and dropped a rating.

It's a subjective test, misses major improvements.

Metric Tensor

It sounds like you have a problem with air-tightness OP. There is no way you will get an A2 or A3 rating without a good air-tightness value but in a development of similar houses the developer only needs to test 1 in every 4 houses. It sounds very much like yours was not one of the ones tested!!!

Basically all of those air gaps you described should be sealed tight. Is the builder gone? He'd be my first angle of approach if he's nearby and genuine.

One thing to note - a cold attic is perfectly ok if the insulation is at ceiling level. Everywhere else should be toasty!

Lumen

Not an expert.

Ask builder for airtightness test results, ideally for your specific house.

Building Regulations 2011 TGD L Dwellings

1.3.4.4 Air pressure testing should be carried out on a proportion of dwellings on all development sites. See sub-section 1.5.4 for details of the test procedure, extent of testing, use of test results in DEAP calculations and appropriate measures to be undertaken where the limit set is not achieved. When tested in accordance with the procedure referred to in sub-section 1.5.4, a performance level of 7 m3/(h.m2) represents a reasonable upper limit for air permeability. Where lower levels of air permeability are achieved it is important that purpose provided ventilation is maintained. For this reason Technical Guidance Document F also provides guidance for buildings with lower air permeability.

Lumen

Oh yeah, also....

Every account I've read of air permeability compliance requires an iterative approach of test, fix, test, fix. Could be many tests (one account was seven).

So obviously if they don't test your specific house it won't comply.

Metric Tensor

btw - the BER is not subjective - the BER system has a LOT of flaws but being subjective is not one of them.

Most likely the cheapest person that could be found was asked to do the BER and relied on a lot of defaults or missed some obvious stuff - that's one of its major flaws!

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Metric Tensor wrote:

Most likely the cheapest person that could be found was asked to do the BER and relied on a lot of defaults or missed some obvious stuff - that's one of its major flaws!

Afraid not, Metric, I believe it to be one of the greatest cons inflicted on the population, and that's saying something. A tax collection device.

Metric Tensor

vzkfec7ogp4s6r wrote: »

Afraid not, Metric, I believe it to be one of the greatest cons inflicted on the population, and that's saying something. A tax collection device.

Nothing I said contradicts that!

All I said is that there's a lot of cowboys doing them!

BryanF

vintagecosmos wrote: »

1. Overall it can take a while to heat the house and it seems the heat is lost quick enough.
2. Am I wrong to think an A3 rated house would be retaining heat much better than this and be better sealed?

3. It is still under warranty and
4. I was thinking to get a professional opinion if I knew there could be actual issues.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

VC

1. Air-tightness &/or poorly fitted insulation
2. Yes
3. You tell us, you bought it
4. Good idea.

mfceiling

Take them with a pinch of salt. My house is rated B1 and it's no more B1 than the man in the moon.

Open fire, cheap double glazed windows and 100mm of cheap yellow insulation in the attic. Large strips of daylight between the windows in the sun room.
I've upgraded the attic insulation and covered the gaps in the window.
It was a new build estate and I'd say the lad doing the BER drove past the houses and plucked a figure out of his arse.

sydthebeat

vzkfec7ogp4s6r wrote: »

BER rating? Total and utter rubbish. I got the walls pumped and ceilings insulated and dropped a rating.

It's a subjective test, misses major improvements.

Its anything but a subjective test.... In fact it's designed to take as much subjectivity out of it that they can. There main gripe on here about it is that it's not subjective... It doesn't take into account how well Windows are fitted, or if there's sockets allowing draughts in.

Its not a prefect system by any means, but it's way better than having nothing in its place.

To the op I would say huge following :

You mention draughts between the block work and plasterboard.... Are all the external walls plasterboard? It has been said here many many times that a new build with internal drylining is a terrible form of construction. It leads to poor air tightness unless extra work is carried out... It sounds like your house has been poorly constructed.

All is not lost however. You can get an air tightness test carried out as it is, and get all the locations of draughts identified and fixed. Lots of caulk, probably some fillers, probably some tape.... But you'll notice a huge improvement after. You might have to caulk seal every length of skirting and architrave, every window board and window ope, pipes extruding from the walls both internally and externally etc.

Until you measure it, you can't solve it.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Metric Tensor wrote:

All I said is that there's a lot of cowboys doing them!

You have to be registered.

slavetothegrind

That one in four rule is rediculous. Who picks the one?

Are there any inspectors randomly retesting in order to check the quality of the work?

FCOL have we learned nothing? You CANNOT trust developers, ever.

I personally know of one seven figure developement which has a quality of fit and finish so far behind my 200k 3 bed semi that it boggles the mind.

It is supposedly B1 and there is a breeze blowing through ALL of the installed window/door systems.

Metric Tensor

vzkfec7ogp4s6r wrote: »

You have to be registered.

I know. And you get audited regularly too!

And penalty points and suspensions if you fail the audit.

All to ensure consistency and prevent any subjectivity so that regardless of what BER Assessor you get your house should get the exact same result.

...... Does it work? .... ?

Let's say the jury is out!


Edit: And an exam every two years too. Forgot to mention that!

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Metric Tensor wrote:

All to ensure consistency and prevent any subjectivity so that regardless of what BER Assessor you get your house should get the exact same result.

Metric Tensor wrote:

...... Does it work? .... ?

I said it's a joke. No consistency. Gets away under the rule that new modes of measurement may have been used since last test. A money making racket.

Freddiestar

I've a B rated house and the difference between this and every other house I've lived in is huge. Sitting room is south facing and thermometer there can read 21C in winter without heating even switched on. Generally the heat stays for hours after switching off.
Can't understand how OPs house got an A rating with so many draughts etc, can only imagine a house with a proper A rating would be sauna like.

sydthebeat

Freddiestar wrote: »

I've a B rated house and the difference between this and every other house I've lived in is huge. Sitting room is south facing and thermometer there can read 21C in winter without heating even switched on. Generally the heat stays for hours after switching off.
Can't understand how OPs house got an A rating with so many draughts etc, can only imagine a house with a proper A rating would be sauna like.

It has all the nuts and bolts of a good build, it's just put together in a sh!te manner....

Lumen

sydthebeat wrote: »

It has all the nuts and bolts of a good build, it's just put together in a sh!te manner....

As does a truck load of construction materials dumped into a skip.

What would that get, C1?

BryanF

Freddiestar wrote: »

I've a B rated house and the difference between this and every other house I've lived in is huge. Sitting room is south facing and thermometer there can read 21C in winter without heating even switched on. Generally the heat stays for hours after switching off.
Can't understand how OPs house got an A rating with so many draughts etc, can only imagine a house with a proper A rating would be sauna like.

For example Current building regs air-leakage is 7ACH

Passive standard is 0.6

(I appreciate these figure aren’t calculated to the same standard, but the gap is massive regardless)

Lumen

BryanF wrote: »

For example Current building regs air-leakage is 7ACH

Is it not 7 m3/(h.m2) ?

dok_golf

I qualified as a BER assessor. The parameters under which the inspection takes place are generalised. It's the only way that a result can be given, otherwise, it would be subjective. When i used my own house as an example when doing the exams, the rating i achieved was not corresponding with the reality of living in a very warm , cheap to run and heat, house.

Metric Tensor

vzkfec7ogp4s6r wrote: »

Gets away under the rule that new modes of measurement may have been used since last test.

That's rubbish. No "modes of measurement" that would have a material affect on an existing house have changed since the scheme came in.

There have been minor changes to heat pumps and primary electrical energy, both of which would help your rating.

As I said I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but who do you think is profiting from the "racket" at your expense?

listermint

The ber is quite literally the definition of a racket.

You could literally buy everything on the list including a new heating system poorly install all of it and achieve and A rating


Anyone that says any different is on a waffle.

It's nothing more than a check box exercise. Does it have it yes no how many etc etc .

I wouldn't trust a ber as much as I'd trust myself to pilot a plane.

And it's all perfectly legal because it's a really flawed system. The notion that it's better than nothing it's classicly Irish and how we accepted mediocrity because the alternative is thinking a system through.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

I think it's a tax. Also house buyers are fooled by the rating.

BryanF

Lumen wrote: »

Is it not 7 m3/(h.m2) ?

Yes it is! Thanks

Metric Tensor

vzkfec7ogp4s6r wrote: »

I think it's a tax. Also house buyers are fooled by the rating.

Agree on both counts.

Bear in mind it was somewhat forced upon us by Europe - every country who's signed up has to have some way of comparing the efficiency of one house against another and the BER is Ireland's way of implementing it. Syd is correct in saying that we have to have some way and this is somewhat of a "best shot" at it.

I can't claim to have a better way but there's no doubt it has a lot of failings.

Anything more accurate would cost the homeowner more money so at least its failings are slightly reducing the "tax" burden on the homeowner by allowing assessors to do it for half nothing! Every cloud!