The Kerry Babies Case

Plenty of people will do all sorts of awful things to protect a family member. I know this. Ranks are closed and the event never to be spoken of again. That isn't a uniquely Irish position but a human one.

However when the awful thing occurs in Catholic Ireland in the early eighties the secrecy becomes all the more urgent and the stakes higher. It's possible that John's parents did and do care about Joanne Hayes but the choice was taken from them and the movement of time makes doing the right thing all the more complex.

As for the actual murder of the poor baby, well it was vicious and hate filled. That makes me wonder about the person who did it. Incest, adultery, psychosis, we don't know. The birth of baby John seemed to have brought huge shame, major disruption, hatred towards the child for simply being born..why?

walterking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485862#Comment_120485862

And it happens in the "garda family" where "Blue Glue" has a specific meaning.

90% of gardai are above reproach , but the other 10% cause chaos

phormium

I wonder if back then a 'scandal' such as the birth could have an impact on career prospects? I don't know the answer, surely while being unfortunate based on the times they lived in what possible threat could the birth have been other than gossip.

I am similar age to Joanne Hayes and I know my mother had a horror of 'what would the neighbour's say!' and a perceived standing in the community so it would have been the end of the world in her eyes! But was the country such that it would actually impede the career of a relative at that time? Then again it might not be that relative at all, if it is the irony is they are both in same graveyard now!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485947#Comment_120485947

Perhaps that was enough but I think there was more to it.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485862#Comment_120485862

As the baby is a full sibling, I don't think incest or adultery are at the root of it.

Initially I thought incest from brother raping sister but as both parents are still a couple and had more children that's obviously not the case.

Captain Fantastic 1984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479889#Comment_120479889

Sorry I obviously missed that part. My mistake, Shoot me🤷‍♀️

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486060#Comment_120486060

You are right. I was thinking incest.

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486091#Comment_120486091

It's her brother, that was also a Garda and died in recent years, that might have confused you 😉

screamer

I’m sure some story will be spun to make sure anyone who was guilty here is long dead. I don’t think there will be one ounce of justice for that little baby, and I truly hope that whoever killed him is dead because a monster who can inflict such a violent death on a tiny little newborn infant has no place in the world. I won’t even start on the so called parents, I bet they are pillars of the community!

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486401#Comment_120486401

" I bet they are pillars of the community!"

Up the front of the church, and first up to communion no doubt.

Perhaps they received Absolution in the confessional for their sin and felt no guilt afterwards.

But the net started to close in 5 or 6 years ago and the knock on the door became inevitable as time went on.

I believe the grandmother and uncle Garda had died by the time Baby John was exhumed in 2021.

Neyite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485966#Comment_120485966

It did have had an impact on career prospects in the mid 80's - this was the same year. https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30930952.html

Many employers forced unmarried mothers to resign or quit their jobs. Back then employers had a lot more scope to discriminate against unmarried mothers - some may not have even wanted to, but caved in to social pressure from customers or clients

This case happened only a decade or so after women could even get child benefit paid to them instead of their husband. Contraception was only prescribed to married couples -and then only by some liberal GPs. Many, especially in rural areas along with pharmacists point-blank refused on religious grounds to prescribe them. My mother was asked by neighbours if she could bring back condoms from her trip to see UK family. Condoms were first sold without prescription in 92. We've the AIDS epidemic to thank for that bit of progress that eventually turned the tide of attitudes towards sex.

The 80s was pretty bleak that way. Don't even get me started on how they treated rape back then.

Even the Rose of Tralee excluded single mothers until 2008.

walterking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486458#Comment_120486458

I presume you are talking about what seems to be the likely killer - the Garda - or maybe you are talking about the incompetent and corrupt Det. Gerry O'Carroll.

If you are talking about the parents who it is looking more like victims themselves due to Garda / Church / Media witchhunt of the time, I think you have it wrong.

I do have previous connections to the area and my brother in law is from Portmagee, so I have good knowledge of the type of holier than thou people you have in the area. - If you were not seen at mass you'd be ignored by quite a large cohort of fervent catholics.

Balagan1

If media reports are true and this couple stayed together, had more children, but never married, then perhaps there may be a case to avoid overestimating their possible concern about what the Church and the neighbours might think about Baby John's arrival and the possible detrimental affect it might have had on another family member's career prospects. Deciding not to have a wedding might have been dictated by the wish to avoid drawing any attention to themselves and their child's killer, avoiding pushing their luck (sorry for using such a word about the cover up of a baby's murder) so to speak, and causing those who were and are in full possession of information about who killed the little boy to begin to speak out and talk to the media. And those people would include neighbours and surely both the Church and the Gardai. Of course, the media can be pretty hard to control, but, perhaps, somehow, in this case, even that happened?

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487176#Comment_120487176

I was responding to @screamer's post about the parents being pillars of the community. If, as unmarried parents they decided to not attend church, they would as you say be pariahs in the community. On the other hand, as a 17 year old from a respectable family, and they don't come much more respectable than a Garda family, she would be expected to show her face in the community and that includes attending mass and lining up for communion.

I believe this is the route they took, and you are right, they were victims in that, but to carry on the hypocrisy for the next 40 years as mature parents themselves is hard to understand, and that's without taking into account the parallel story of Joanne Hayes going on 50 miles up the road.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483250#Comment_120483250

I never said otherwise. It was an online renewal so no paper documents needed at all. That's when she said that she didn't like having to submit her birth cert for things. Given that it's 10 years or more between passport renewals, most people don't know what documents they need and think they might need things that actually aren't needed, until they actually look it up.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120484867#Comment_120484867

There was no register of stillbirths until 1995 and there is still no requirement to report or register a stillbirth, it's voluntary.

leck

Are the parents of Baby John a married couple?

The Independent article from Friday refers to "The case of Baby John took a significant turn last month with the arrest of the married couple" but in the Irish Times article on Sunday it says "Further inquiries were carried out and gardaí established that the man lived with his partner, who was in her late 50s and was originally from elsewhere in south Kerry, and they had adult children as well as siblings living in the county."

Packrat

I find the timeline of events a bit suspect.

If everyone who could possibly be charged is dead over the last 5 or 6 years, (a Google search will easily find them) and then the gardai suddenly get interested in the case again, this indicates that they knew well all along who/what happened.

Why would they then wait?

Only logical answer:

To protect others within the "force" if the charged individual started to talk about what actually happened and who covered it up.

This smacks of one almighty cover up from the very start and they've largely gotten away with it.

myclist

But everyone who could be charged is not dead.

Acorn 737

It does sound a bit odd alright, a couple of recent deaths and conveniently AGS is all over it. I’ve a funny feeling AGS knew exactly who it was from the get go, or at least some of them did. In fairness it’s not difficult to come to that conclusion given the available information.

myclist

Given the available information, and having lived in the area for a hell of a long time now.... That is one conclusion I would never reach. No locals had any clue. Local Gardai had no clue.. there is no way any cover up of this sort would have held up locally.

cute geoge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491783#Comment_120491783

Can anyone ever even remember the mother of baby John being pregnant around this time?

How in Gods name the murder squad singled out Joanne Hayes and her family 60 miles away is beyond comprehension and the culpret on the doorstep

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491783#Comment_120491783

The Gard with a “connection to the family” most likely posted elsewhere in the country.

If the local Gardai had a clue they’re unlikely to be spreading it about, unless you are involved with the Gardai.

By cover up do you mean a cover up of the birth by the family or a cover up of the murder by the Gardai?

Acorn 737

To be fair the general idea of a cover up is that nobody will find out about it or ever have any inkling of the subject being covered up.

myclist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491964#Comment_120491964

Interesting conjecture, but wholly unsupported by the reality on the ground locally.

myclist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491962#Comment_120491962

Locals had no knowledge of the pregnancy.

Acorn 737

I’d fully agree with that, it would have been let slip at some point in a moment of weakness or after a few drinks or something.

myclist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492124#Comment_120492124

If there was any local knowledge, and even the remotest attempt at a cover up there's no way it would have lasted without some whisper. That name never came up until after the arrests .

cute geoge

It is hard to see the uncle who is dead also been the murderer ,he might have been involved in the cover up but been a young guard at the time ,he would have seen the ways of the world with countleess babies born to young mothers and they getting on with life.

Imo it was the matriach who did the deed with full control over her family .Behind closed doors ,some of these matriachs are poisonous but on the outside all smilles

Acorn 737

Theres so many possibilities there though, apparently the child was alive for a few days, there’s always a chance they gave him to someone for adoption who decided to murder him. It would have been so difficult to explain that away that from the family’s point of view it was better to keep quiet about it rather than get jailed for a murder they may have had nothing to do with. Conjecture of course, but the possibility exists.