Homophobic remarks at work today

Mountainsandh

I don't know Wakka...

I spend a lot of time with people who have poor social and communication skills (teenagers !).

Sometimes you may think they're terribly bold and looking for trouble when really, the problem is just that they come across that way.

I cut and dyed my hair before the week-end. I'm going to go in tomorrow and have lots of reactions, some overly dramatic, some laughingly made remarks, some that will seem very rude.
I've learned over the years that really for the vast majority, it's just children a little shook that someone in their environment looks less familiar, laughing is not necessarily mocking, and how rude it sounds is really down to communication skills.
I know this because if I don't take offense and respond without being defensive, the reactions are spontaneously re-explained in a more appropriate manner, and there is no intention to insult or hurt.

Sometimes you just have to give people a chance, rather than jump and be defensive.

JackTaylorFan

wakka12 wrote: »

Im surprised by the amount of people defending this. I can completely imagine the situation, it sounds very familiar, I guess he was grinning at you as he asked it? Maybe a few of the lads snickered too. It was meant to humiliate you and mock you but asked in such a way so that he could not be accused of any bullying, just a simple question eh... and that you could be accused of being over sensitive for being offended

Regardless of orientation I think its rude to put somebody on the spot like that in front of lots of people , and seeing as you're gay Id say there were elements of (I don't want to call it homophobia)..but I guess just making mockery of gay people a bit.
If he had asked a straight guy..the only situation I could imagine is the guy being asked is a bit of a loser,has no luck with ladies, as in he'd only ask this question to a person he wants to publicly bully/humiliate

I am equally as surprised by the LGBT people on this thread dismissing the incident as something innocent - even a MOD on here seems to be brushing it off. Most shockingly I found that one of the non LGBT contributors to this forum had a better grasp of this scenario than some of them.

The OP's story is typical of the kind of bullying you find on a playground, and it's the kind of homophobic attitude that some individuals carry into adulthood. It's not acceptable in anyway, shape or form to ask questions like this either in a work place or in any other context.

baby and crumble

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I am equally as surprised by the LGBT people on this thread dismissing the incident as something innocent - even a MOD on here seems to be brushing it off. Most shockingly I found that one of the non LGBT contributors to this forum had a better grasp of this scenario than some of them.

The OP's story is typical of the kind of bullying you find on a playground, and it's the kind of homophobic attitude that some individuals carry into adulthood. It's not acceptable in anyway, shape or form to ask questions like this either in a work place or in any other context.

I know that my initial reaction seemed to brush it off, but without being the OP, it's very hard to know exactly the tone, context etc of any comments. I once had a girl in work ask me, privately, if I liked girls or guys. It wasn't said maliciously, I think she just picked up on a crush I had on one of the other staff and was actually trying to matchmake tbh.

I still don't see how this is "bullying". Bullying is sustained behaviour over a period of time. To say once off remarks are "bullying" actually does a huge disservice to those people who actually ARE bullied and harassed every single day. Sure, maybe the guy who made the comments was rude and ignorant (that much is pretty plain), but without being there it's very hard to say "yes that was homophobic". Some people are just curious and blurt out anything that comes into your head.

Obviously since the OP is distressed by the comments it's important to get some support but honestly- and I am speaking as a poster here, not as a mod- I don't think (like I said in my first post on thread) it's actionable bullying. You go to a HR department and tell them "he asked me if I had a boyfriend" and they'll look at you like "so"? It's a question. Yes, if these remarks become routine then it needs to be addressed but the OP asked for opinions. I gave mine as a poster.

I also realise I'm coming at this as a person who's been out at work and everywhere for going on 15 years. I'm also a person who shares quite a lot with my colleagues, and I always have. I don't like separating work and private life so rigidly as many others, I always feel stifled by it. So I get that that's colouring my feelings. Apologies to the OP if they thought I was being dismissive.

adam88

magentis wrote: »

Christ almighty.

It was just a question.

No need to be perpetually offended.Sometimes you need to accept a situation for what it is,regardless of your orientation.

I wasn’t offended by the question asked. Where did you gather than opinion from

the_syco

bicloset wrote: »

However asking the question unprovoked and spontanously was implying "I think you are gay and hence I am asking you have you a bf; I do not think you are fit to have a gf, hence I directed the question".

In a past job, if you don't have a girlfriend that the head chef would like to fcuk, your sexuality would be questioned. Sometimes this sort of sh|t is said to break the ice between co-workers.

Also, have you considered that the person who asked you may be gay himself? Does he have a gf?

Mellor

Tell me how wrote: »

If the OP was straight, would such questions (are you in a relationship, do you want one) constitute bullying? I don't think so to be honest.

That's it in a nutshell.
Different expectations only lead to people being treated differently.


On the other hand, tone says a lot. Which isn't conveyed in text. It's very easy to ask the above question in a different tones, to achieve different implication.

Peregrinus

Tell me how wrote: »

If the OP was straight, would such questions (are you in a relationship, do you want one) constitute bullying? I don't think so to be honest.

It might be intrusive or a bit forward but not bullying. In my view.

Mellor wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell.
Different expectations only lead to people being treated differently.


On the other hand, tone says a lot. Which isn't conveyed in text. It's very easy to ask the above question in a different tones, to achieve different implication.

Per the OP, the questions weren't "Are you in a relationship? Do you want one?" They were "Do you have a boyfriend? Do you want one?" And, to cap it, the OP's reply (to the effect that he was not looking for a boyfriend) was dismissed with a promise to keep an eye out for a boyfriend for him.

Those questions, addressed to a man in a work environment in which he is not out, are more than "intrusive or a bit forward". They are highly inappropriate, and I'd be looking for some additional factor not mentioned in the OP to support any argument that they do not amount to bullying.

Mellor

Peregrinus wrote: »

Per the OP, the questions weren't "Are you in a relationship? Do you want one?" They were "Do you have a boyfriend? Do you want one?" And, to cap it, the OP's reply (to the effect that he was not looking for a boyfriend) was dismissed with a promise to keep an eye out for a boyfriend for him.

Those questions, addressed to a man in a work environment in which he is not out, are more than "intrusive or a bit forward". They are highly inappropriate, and I'd be looking for some additional factor not mentioned in the OP to support any argument that they do not amount to bullying.

Not sure if you meant to quote my post or not. Nor am I sure how that applies to what I said.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Per the OP, the questions weren't "Are you in a relationship? Do you want one?" They were "Do you have a boyfriend? Do you want one?

What exactly is wrong with that part, taken at face value?
Would it be bullying to ask a straight person if they had a girlfriend instead of "are you in a relationship".

I agree that the comment at the end suggests his tone was less than genuine. But curious why you singled out the above part first.

wakka12

Mellor wrote: »

Not sure if you meant to quote my post or not. Nor am I sure how that applies to what I said.


What exactly is wrong with that part, taken at face value?
Would it be bullying to ask a straight person if they had a girlfriend instead of "are you in a relationship".

I agree that the comment at the end suggests his tone was less than genuine. But curious why you singled out the above part first.

When would any guy ask a straight guy they barely know if they've a girlfriend in front of lots of people? I think its rude either way if the person being asked is gay or straight, but the person asked was gay and the person asking focused on this, hence why I think it was homophobic

turbot

bicloset wrote: »

Another man who always has plenty to say for himself was there and randomly turns around to me and asks if I have a boyfriend. When I said no I didn't, he then asked do I want one? and I said no to which he replies that he will keep his ear out for me.

....

Any constructive thoughts are welcomed and I understand people may not think this as homophobic bullying but I think it totally is and the sneakiest kind of bullying.

Is it possible he knew someone who was into you and was trying to set you up on a friends behalf, while being not quite sure if you were gay, with no offence intended? Is it possible he knew someone else who was gay and thought you might be a good match for them, trying to serve both your interests, with good will?

What you describe simply sounds like your own social awkwardness surrounding this area... not a third party intentionally bullying you. That may be conflated with awkwardness in his mannerisms...

It may be a personal subject for some people / workplaces, but it shouldn't be a taboo subject per se. Whether or not you choose to disclose personal things, if you don't have the inner option to answer such questions without it feeling like bullying, probably you have some work on yourself to do.

As a straight guy (with loads of gay/lgbt/gender-fluid friends) who from time to time has been asked if I was gay etc, I've never taken that as an offensive question.

wakka12

If you genuinely wanted to find a partner for somebody you would say it to them personally with nobody else around, or at least in a less public environment than the OP described
Not a chance that lad was being genuine

Mellor

wakka12 wrote: »

When would any guy ask a straight guy they barely know if they've a girlfriend in front of lots of people? I think its rude either way if the person being asked is gay or straight, but the person asked was gay and the person asking focused on this, hence why I think it was homophobic

People often ask their colleagues personal question to get to know them. Only today I was asked if I was going to marry my partner.

The fact you said "but this person is gay" is kinda my point. Do you think it's different if the person is gay?

The OP's colleague possibly was being homophobic. He's not relevant to my question though.

Henry94

Take a note of it. With bullying, a single incident can be ambiguous and you can give the benefit of the doubt. But a pattern tells a story. Keep a record and don't change your behavior.

wakka12

Mellor wrote: »

People often ask their colleagues personal question to get to know them. Only today I was asked if I was going to marry my partner.

The fact you said "but this person is gay" is kinda my point. Do you think it's different if the person is gay?

The OP's colleague possibly was being homophobic. He's not relevant to my question though.

Did a random colleague who you don't know ask you? In front of a room full of people? In a situation in which there were no other personal questions being asked, either before it or to anyone else?

Maybe it wasn't homophobic, but I would think he was trying to make the person feel awkward or humiliate them. And given it wasn't asked to a straight person, makes me think it was more on the homophobic side. Maybe Im wrong, maybe you're right, nobody knows

baby and crumble

wakka12 wrote: »

If you genuinely wanted to find a partner for somebody you would say it to them personally with nobody else around, or at least in a less public environment than the OP described
Not a chance that lad was being genuine

wakka12 wrote: »

When would any guy ask a straight guy they barely know if they've a girlfriend in front of lots of people? I think its rude either way if the person being asked is gay or straight, but the person asked was gay and the person asking focused on this, hence why I think it was homophobic

I honestly think you're giving people more credit than is due. I've been asked in front of many people if I'm male or female, I've seen people asked in groups if they're going to have children, if not why not- is there something wrong with them? I've heard of people asking why their family member (my MIL as it happens) had a disbility- was it because of incest?

There's probably no way to say for certain if in this instance what was said was homophobic in intent- really the only person who could asnwer that is the person who said it. Some people are just so so clumsy in how they go about things. But OP there's no harm in taking a nore of anythign you feel is hurtful or ofeensive so that you can see if a pattern emerges. That will tell you more about homophobia/bullying than strangers on the internet who weren't there.

Mellor

wakka12 wrote: »

Did a random colleague who you don't know ask you? In front of a room full of people? In a situation in which there were no other personal questions being asked, either before it or to anyone else?

More or less. The girl today just came out with it out of the blue.

Maybe it wasn't homophobic, but I would think he was trying to make the person feel awkward or humiliate them. And given it wasn't asked to a straight person, makes me think it was more on the homophobic side. Maybe Im wrong, maybe you're right, nobody knows

Even if he was being homophobic, that doesn't make my point wrong, or right.
You avoided my question btw, about whether a it's different to ask a gay person that.

Annasopra

Mellor wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with that part, taken at face value?
Would it be bullying to ask a straight person if they had a girlfriend instead of "are you in a relationship".

I think this has been explained already. But it is different. In a heteronormative world can often be quite intimidating and not meant in a casual friendly way so the whataboutery of the girlfriend thing is not relevant. Also where a person is not out in the workplace a question like this is potentially outing them publicly against their own wishes.

Annasopra

Mellor wrote: »

The fact you said "but this person is gay" is kinda my point. Do you think it's different if the person is gay?
.

Yes. It is different. Equality does NOT mean we are all the same. It is different because gay people can often be subjected to serious workplace bullying and discrimination and also because gay people may not want to be out or to be publicly outed in the workplace.

ignorance is strength

Mellor wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with that part, taken at face value?

So much bigotry could be dismissed if that were a criterion of assessment.

turbot wrote: »

Is it possible he knew someone who was into you and was trying to set you up on a friends behalf, while being not quite sure if you were gay, with no offence intended? Is it possible he knew someone else who was gay and thought you might be a good match for them, trying to serve both your interests, with good will?

What you describe simply sounds like your own social awkwardness surrounding this area... not a third party intentionally bullying you. That may be conflated with awkwardness in his mannerisms...

It may be a personal subject for some people / workplaces, but it shouldn't be a taboo subject per se. Whether or not you choose to disclose personal things, if you don't have the inner option to answer such questions without it feeling like bullying, probably you have some work on yourself to do.

As a straight guy (with loads of gay/lgbt/gender-fluid friends) who from time to time has been asked if I was gay etc, I've never taken that as an offensive question.

How likely is it that this guy, in a blokish environment (who presumably conforms to the type, otherwise OP would have mentioned it), decided to play match-maker for someone he barely knew and who had never discussed their sexuality, and to do it in front of another colleague? I accept that it's a possibility, but why dismiss the OP's concerns on the basis of such an improbable explanation?

"...your own social awkwardness..." You may well disagree with this, but progressive thought generally privileges the minority voice or the victim in determining whether something is offensive. If you ask a trans person what their birth name was, it's considered offensive (if you wanna know why, google it - or ask one of your friends); if you ask the same question of a Chinese person with an anglicized name, it could well be considered complimentary, in that you are showing interest. We don't insist that, because the Chinese person is unoffended, the trans person would be wrong to be offended. We acknowledge that the context is different and defer to the individual to decide for themselves. The same is true here. It's greatly insensitive to blame the OP for being offended.

I've read your final sentence a few times but still don't understand what point exactly you're making, or how whatever you meant could be relevant. That you, as someone who did not suffer years and years of insecurity and anguish because of your sexual or gender identity, aren't offended to be sometimes considered something you're not is hardly relevant to an LGBT person in this situation, and your response, therefore, shouldn't be used to assess whether it is offensive.

Ten of Swords

Op how has the last week been for you at your workplace? Have you thought about how you want to approach it now that you've had some time to process it? Has anything else happened, either covertly or overtly, that made you feel uncomfortable?

Peregrinus

Mellor wrote: »

Not sure if you meant to quote my post or not. Nor am I sure how that applies to what I said.

I did mean to quote you. Tell me how said he didn't think the questions put were bullying, and you quoted him and said "that's it in a nutshell". I think you were both wrong (perhaps partly because tell me how misstated the question); I think it was bullying.

Mellor wrote: »

Would it be bullying to ask a straight person if they had a girlfriend instead of "are you in a relationship".

If they are known to be straight, no, that's not bullying.

The difference here is that bicloset is (a) male, and (b) not out. So to ask him "do you have a boyfriend?" is to attempt to out him, or to force him to dissimulate in order to avoid being outed. "Do you have a partner?" or "Are you in a relationship?" would be OK, if a bit forward, but "do you have a boyfriend?" is tantamount to "you're gay, aren't you?". Not cool.

Mellor

Peregrinus wrote: »

I did mean to quote you. Tell me how said he didn't think the questions put were bullying, and you quoted him and said "that's it in a nutshell". I think you were both wrong (perhaps partly because tell me how misstated the question); I think it was bullying.

You ignoring/forgetting the second half.
I followed up that part saying tone of a question changes everything. A perfectly reasonable statement or question can be changed entirely. I also said the person in the OP probably was being snide. The last comment in particular made it sound like a rehearsed schtick to be.

The difference here is that bicloset is (a) male, and (b) not out. So to ask him "do you have a boyfriend?" is to attempt to out him, or to force him to dissimulate in order to avoid being outed. "Do you have a partner?" or "Are you in a relationship?" would be OK, if a bit forward, but "do you have a boyfriend?" is tantamount to "you're gay, aren't you?". Not cool.

You are reconstructing my question though. You're changing the situation into outing someone. I made it clear I wasn't talking about the OP specifically. Vindictively outing somebody is obviously not cool.


Your previous sentence was;

If they are known to be straight, no, that's not bullying.

I'm asking if we change the sexual orientation in the above. Is it still bullying?
I don't believe it is.

We can change any number of other details to make it more or less bullying or not bullying tbh.

Peregrinus

Mellor wrote: »

You ignoring/forgetting the second half.
I followed up that part saying tone of a question changes everything. A perfectly reasonable statement or question can be changed entirely. I also said the person in the OP probably was being snide. The last comment in particular made it sound like a rehearsed schtick to be.

I may be misunderstanding you, but if you ask a man, who's not out, "Do you have a boyfriend?", I find it hard to imagine that tone would enter into it very much.

Mellor wrote: »

I'm asking if we change the sexual orientation in the above. Is it still bullying?
I don't believe it is.

Sexual orientation isn't really relevant. What matters is that the person is not an out gay man. There are a couple of permutations on this:

He's gay, but not out. You know or believe that he's gay, and you're attempting to out him, or at least to embarrass him into lying. This is bullying; I think we both agree this.

You do not know whether he is gay or not, or you simply assume that he's straight, but in either case you are seeking to embarrass him by insinuating that you know him to be gay. This is homophobic bullying, not because he's gay - he isn't - but because it treats gayness as a cause for shame.

He's straight, and you know he's straight. Either you're seeking to embarrass him by insinuating that you know him to be gay, which is homophobic bullying as above, or you ask it in such a jocular tone (and this is really the only case in which tone is relevant) as to make it clear that you know him to be straight, but you consider it amusing to affect to think that he's gay. In that case you're not bullying him, but you probably are contributing to an environment in which homosexuality is assumed to be embarrassing or shameful, and is used as a slur.

The only circumstance in which you can properly ask a man if he has a boyfriend is in an environment in which he is an out gay man.

Mellor

Peregrinus wrote: »

I may be misunderstanding you, but if you ask a man, who's not out,

There's that "who's not out" bit again.

He's gay, but not out. You know or believe that he's gay, and you're attempting to out him, or at least to embarrass him into lying. This is bullying; I think we both agree this.

I agree that's bullying.
But that's not applicable to my question.

You do not know whether he is gay or not, or you simply assume that he's straight, but in either case you are seeking to embarrass him by insinuating that you know him to be gay. This is homophobic bullying, not because he's gay - he isn't - but because it treats gayness as a cause for shame.

That would be homophobic, and also bullying, but not homophobic bullying imo. Mostly semantics.

If they are known to be straight, no, that's not bullying.

In the above scenario, you prefaced the comment by they are known to be straight. Yet, you removed that part from the homosexual scenario. That completely changes the scenario, and was not the question I asked.

The only circumstance in which you can properly ask a man if he has a boyfriend is in an environment in which he is an out gay man.

Agree. That's exactly what I asked btw.

The reason I asked that question was because the poster I was talking to claimed asking a homosexual that question was homophobic simply because they are homosexual.
I find that eggshell approach to be a bit ridiculous tbh.

Annasopra

To be honest I think "what about asking a straight person" is just whaboutery

Mellor

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

To be honest I think "what about asking a straight person" is just whaboutery

No really. It was just an example to highlight the nonsense. But it's by no means necessary. It's pretty easy to demonstrate that the sentiment was nonsense without that example.

Peregrinus' post above sums it up well. It's wrong if asking that question furthers some vindictive agenda (such as outing the person). It's not a homophobic question simply because the person is homosexual. In the case of an out gay man, it's not an issue.

Tell me how

Joeytheparrot wrote:

To be honest I think "what about asking a straight person" is just whaboutery

If you think that, you must think asking any person about their relationship status and desire for one is bullying. I don't.

If it persists after it being obvious it made the person being asked uncomfortable, and they said so, then it is.

I'm glad to see that the OP didn't post again that this person since said anything else negative to them so I hope it was just them being clumsy and a bit forward but not intentionally bullying.

Peregrinus

Mellor wrote: »

. . . . The reason I asked that question was because the poster I was talking to claimed asking a homosexual that question was homophobic simply because they are homosexual.

Right. I had picked you up wrongly. My apologies.

Asking a work colleague if he's in a relationship may be rude and I'd hesitate to do it myself, but it's not rendered homophobic purely by the fact that the colleague is gay. Something more is required.

If the question is framed in a way that implies or discloses that the colleague is gay and this isn't something already openly acknowledged in the work environment then, yeah, it starts to look homophobic.

Mellor

Peregrinus wrote: »

Right. I had picked you up wrongly. My apologies.

No worries. Posts were crossing over and it's easily done.

Asking a work colleague if he's in a relationship may be rude and I'd hesitate to do it myself, but it's not rendered homophobic purely by the fact that the colleague is gay. Something more is required.

If the question is framed in a way that implies or discloses that the colleague is gay and this isn't something already openly acknowledged in the work environment then, yeah, it starts to look homophobic.

Agree on both counts

Annasopra

Tell me how wrote: »

If you think that, you must think asking any person about their relationship status and desire for one is bullying. I don't.

If it persists after it being obvious it made the person being asked uncomfortable, and they said so, then it is.

I'm glad to see that the OP didn't post again that this person since said anything else negative to them so I hope it was just them being clumsy and a bit forward but not intentionally bullying.

Dont patronise me to tell me what I think.