Munster's Gerbrandt Grobler signing - right or wrong?

Turnipman

If he's half as good as Munster Rugby claim that he is then the two questions that occur to me are:

(i) why did no other Top 14 team try to sign him when Racing decided to release him? Because there's a heck of a lot more money floating around the Top 14 than there is in Munster Rugby.

(ii) why did Munster only sign him for one year? Because the same amount of sh1t would have hit the fan whether he signed for one season or for three.

It now appears that (to use Garret Fitzgerald's own words) a "world-class player with the required skill-set for top flight rugby (Champions Cup and Guinness PRO14)" is going to be lost to Munster rugby in 5 months time! Completely insane!

ThisRegard

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well they said he's an example of what can happen to you if you feck around with doping.
.

Bulk up and get two decent contacts immediately afterwards while you're still young?

prawnsambo

Stonyjim wrote: »

Hypocrisy here is staggering I believe. My guess is that there is far more steroid use or if you want to call it abuse happening in this sport both in Ireland and globally than the public are aware of. I remember guys at college more than 20 years ago going up 2 or 3 suit sizes in a few months. I have heard rumours of several high profile players that played as Ireland internationals that have used juice from people who would know about using juice.

The gains in size that we see in young players can not happen with just diet and weights and certainly not over such a small time frame. I don't think it physically possible (without artificially doing so with chemical help) expect in the cases of the odd genetic freak. Some people are natural freaks of nature but they are few and there is not enough of these genetic anomalies around to fulfill the numbers that are playing rugby these last couple of decades.

This lad is just unfortunate enough to get caught doing what thousands are going globally and getting away with I believe.

I agree. Any positive test findings have mainly been iin the younger cohort of players. Grobler's positive test would have been at the outside edge of that bracket. It's likely that it wasn't his first time using either.

phog

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The signing of Del Favo was equally problematic. I’d show you my tweets from the time except it was years before Twitter existed. (edit: Twitter is older than I thought! But you catch my drift)

The national media didn't seem too concerned about it at the time or has my Google searching missed them and the rugby forum here was in full swing back then. Can't recall any great noise over it.

prawnsambo

ThisRegard wrote: »

Bulk up and get two decent contacts immediately afterwards while you're still young?

Were they decent contracts? Any idea what he was (and is) being paid? And where's he going after Munster drop him at the end of his one year stint?

phog

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't think NIMBY is appropriate in this context. Unless it's Munster fans not wanting him here?

No, Irish rugby fans not wanting him here.

ThisRegard

prawnsambo wrote: »

Were they decent contracts? Any idea what he was (and is) being paid? And where's he going after Munster drop him at the end of his one year stint?

Put it this way, he wasn't left struggling to land a contract in Romania to ilk out a living.

No idea what sort of pay was involved though, but they're two good teams to land a contract with I reckon in terms of prestige.

Owta Control

Reading between the lines of that OTB interview...it seems perhaps ROG recommend him to Munster?

Former Former

Turnipman wrote: »

why did Munster only sign him for one year? Because the same amount of sh1t would have hit the fan whether he signed for one season or for three.

Apparently the Beirne deal was already in the works so they knew he'd be coming.

thomond2006

Turnipman wrote: »

If he's half as good as Munster Rugby claim that he is then the two questions that occur to me are:

(i) why did no other Top 14 team try to sign him when Racing decided to release him? Because there's a heck of a lot more money floating around the Top 14 than there is in Munster Rugby.

(ii) why did Munster only sign him for one year? Because the same amount of sh1t would have hit the fan whether he signed for one season or for three.

It now appears that (to use Garret Fitzgerald's own words) a "world-class player with the required skill-set for top flight rugby (Champions Cup and Guinness PRO14)" is going to be lost to Munster rugby in 5 months time! Completely insane!

ii) He was signed as a stop gap for Beirne. Munster suggested this in their statement. They lost three locks and DOC was injured. Beirne wasn't available so they needed someone else. The IRFU wouldn't have allowed two NIE locks under long term contracts.

My guess is the attitude was "Yeah he's a drugs cheat but he's not here for the long haul so it's not a big deal. Let's just bring him in for the year."

I think questions should be asked if we have our own house in order concerning drug testing. That's a far bigger deterrent to doping than the presence of a player who got caught and was punished.

prawnsambo

ThisRegard wrote: »

Out it this way, he wasn't left struggling to land a contract in Romania to ilk out a living.

No. But so far he hasn't managed anything more than a one year contract. And he's been country hopping. It's not exactly a shining example of how good a doping regime is for your career. All the negative publicity here is not doing his future employment prospects any good either.

The sad thing is that he probably would have been able to get a decent contract overseas without the juice. SA is notoriously obsessed with big players (c.f Stander is too small :rolleyes:), but that's not the case in other places.

Turnipman

phog wrote: »

The national media didn't seem too concerned about it at the time or has my Google searching missed them and the rugby forum here was in full swing back then. Can't recall any great noise over it.

Michelle de Bruin probably wasn't too concerned about it either. However some of the posters on this thread are - so perhaps you'd come back to the here and now and address their concerns.

ThisRegard

prawnsambo wrote: »

The sad thing is that he probably would have been able to get a decent contract overseas without the juice. SA is notoriously obsessed with big players (c.f Stander is too small :rolleyes:), but that's not the case in other places.

Chicken and egg though, how big was he pre steroids? Might be interesting to see a pic of him when playing at school.

Turnipman

thomond2006 wrote: »

ii) He was signed as a stop gap for Beirne. Munster suggested this in their statement. They lost three locks and DOC was injured. Beirne wasn't available so they needed someone else. The IRFU wouldn't have allowed two NIE locks under long term contracts.

My guess is the attitude was "Yeah he's a drugs cheat but he's not here for the long haul so it's not a big deal. Let's just bring him in for the year."

Fair enough.

It's still rather strange that no other Top 14 (or APL) club appears to have wanted to sign him.

irishbucsfan

phog wrote: »

The national media didn't seem too concerned about it at the time or has my Google searching missed them and the rugby forum here was in full swing back then. Can't recall any great noise over it.

This is whataboutery. If you’re right all it means is that the media were wrong back then. It’s irrelevant to this issue now. And the IRFU need to step up and deal with this. They’ve handled it amateurishly.

prawnsambo

Turnipman wrote: »

Fair enough.

It's still rather strange that no other Top 14 (or APL) club appears to have wanted to sign him.

From what's been said above, it was probably a word of mouth thing involving Rassie and ROG. He may not have been on the market at that stage.

It will be interesting to see where he goes next. But his injury has set hiim back as well, so he won't have much in the shop window.

Neil3030

I don't really have time to read this whole thread, but are people operating under the assumption that PED usage is not otherwise rampant in rugby, including in Ireland? The various participants in discussions I've listened to on Off the Ball certainly seem to be, at any rate.

prawnsambo

ThisRegard wrote: »

Chicken and egg though, how big was he pre steroids? Might be interesting to see a pic of him when playing at school.

This is a photo of him used at the time of his suspension. It may be an older file photo.

Dave_The_Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

The various participants in discussions I've listened to on Off the Ball certainly seem to be, at any rate.

Kimmage would see PEDs in the local under-6 sports day egg and spoon race.

The rest I'm well up for listening to but at this stage, he's fanatical about it.

I wouldn't be at all surprised, for the record, but I'm not going to go throwing it about without any kind of proof.

ThisRegard

Neil3030 wrote: »

but are people operating under the assumption that PED usage is not otherwise rampant in rugby, including in Ireland?

I can only speak for myself but I believe it's an issue in all sports, starting with lads in their teens at their local gym.

Neil3030

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Kimmage would see PEDs in the local under-6 sports day egg and spoon race.

The rest I'm well up for listening to but at this stage, he's fanatical about it.

I wouldn't be at all surprised, for the record, but I'm not going to go throwing it about without any kind of proof.

Ah not just Kimmage, I listened to two conversations on it, one with Gilroy and that ginger lad interviewing Johne Murphy, the other with Joe Molloy interviewing O'Sullivan and Fez. The overarching theme of both conversations was that doping is a despicable act, that Grobler deserves a second chance - just "not here", and that signing Grobler tarnishes Munster's image and sets a terrible example to the young Munster players. The hand-wringing was mostly led by the interviewing journalists, not by the former players and in my opinion it screams of a rather puritanical naivety regarding PED usage, both in the sport, and in Ireland.

ThisRegard

Off the Ball have discussed doping being an issue in rugby before, more than once, in fairness to them. They may be either naïve or too ideological in how the sport should be.

Lil Wendy

Understand the mixed opinions [guy cheated], but I just feel a bit sorry for him. Made a mistake as a very young man, and now, probably for the duration of whatever is left of his career, he'll be the object of endless suspicion, and a talking point for pontificating moralists who have probably done a lot worse.

ThisRegard

Lil Wendy wrote: »

and a talking point for pontificating moralists who have probably done a lot worse.

Are you saying that only immoral people are allowed to have issues with dopers, or is it moral people as long as their sins weigh less than his?

Am I allowed to chastise my kids for cursing when as an adult I've done much worse than that?

Lil Wendy

ThisRegard wrote: »

Are you saying that only immoral people are allowed to have issues with drug cheats?

No.

Dave_The_Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

Ah not just Kimmage, I listened to two conversations on it, one with Gilroy and that ginger lad interviewing Johne Murphy, the other with Joe Molloy interviewing O'Sullivan and Fez. The overarching theme of both conversations was that doping is a despicable act, that Grobler deserves a second chance - just "not here", and that signing Grobler tarnishes Munster's image and sets a terrible example to the young Munster players. The hand-wringing was mostly led by the interviewing journalists, not by the former players and in my opinion it screams of a rather puritanical naivety regarding PED usage, both in the sport, and in Ireland.

Yeah, I've heard a few, and to be fair they're good enough debates usually. Thing is, if it's actually a rampant (or semi rampant) issue in professional rugby, we can't ncessarily trust what O'Sullivan, Fez, Gilroy or Murphy say, since they would have been involved at that time. You can look at it that they may have been involved, they may not, but they've no interest in blowing the lid, and they have prior colleagues still in the game. That's my cynical viewpoint.

Of course, that's a double edged sword - they have no reason now to not blow the lid either, since they're the ones that know etc and have a name to keep clean. They want to keep the name of the sport they love clean too. You can't prove a negative after all.

Anyway, the silly point I'm really badly making is that we can't really rely on people's interviews or otherwise. The only real way to know is to have independents go in as part of a PED testing programme and make that as robust as possible.

Until something like that comes up with dodgy results, I'll honestly ignore it. Because I don't know what to think otherwise.

joseywhales

prawnsambo wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

My point is that working as a paramedic having trained as a doctor is a massive step down. They aren't comparable positions at all so a being banned from practising as a doctor is taking that 'livelihood away'.

No it's not. It's a pay cut, not a complete loss of earnings.

A lifetime ban for a rugby player isn't just the loss of earnings from being a pro rugby player. He can't coach or even play at amateur level. That's what a ban entails.

Edit: Also, as far as I'm aware, no professional body can impose worldwide bans. So a disbarred solicitor can move to another jurisdiction and qualify and practice there.

The banned rugby player can also become a paramedic similar to the doctor.

joseywhales

Lil Wendy wrote: »

Understand the mixed opinions [guy cheated], but I just feel a bit sorry for him. Made a mistake as a very young man, and now, probably for the duration of whatever is left of his career, he'll be the object of endless suspicion, and a talking point for pontificating moralists who have probably done a lot worse.

There are hundreds of guys who suffered career ending injuries, there are many more who had absolutely no ability, they were unlucky, this guy cheated. He can still live his life, if not like he is being executed ,he has his whole life ahead of him the same as any normal person in their mid twenties.

budhabob

Neil3030 wrote: »

Ah not just Kimmage, I listened to two conversations on it, one with Gilroy and that ginger lad interviewing Johne Murphy, the other with Joe Molloy interviewing O'Sullivan and Fez. The overarching theme of both conversations was that doping is a despicable act, that Grobler deserves a second chance - just "not here", and that signing Grobler tarnishes Munster's image and sets a terrible example to the young Munster players. The hand-wringing was mostly led by the interviewing journalists, not by the former players and in my opinion it screams of a rather puritanical naivety regarding PED usage, both in the sport, and in Ireland.

That's just the Irish bloody "Nimby" attitude that we see everywhere. If hes entitled to a second chance, that should be anywhere. What makes us holier than thou to say not here? (I know youre not necessarily of that opinion, but its something I have seen thrown about).

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Great example.

If you get caught on the stuff you can take two years off with a fully semesterised weights program while still benefiting from the drugs you’ve taken and come back much bigger, which is perfect for getting a bit of an advantage. Anyone struggling in the academy will be comforted in that knowledge, particularly guys stuck behind South Africans who have been flown in based on their physical prowess.

This is the thing for me. And I say this in isolation, completely separate to the GG situation.

I'm a 20 year old Donnacha Ryan. I'm highly rated but notoriously lightweight for my position and struggle to bulk up. What's to stop me hitting a programme of steroids to bulk up knowing the risk and implications? I'll raise my muscle mass and get where I need to be quickly. If I get caught, I simply continue to train and increase my muscle mass whilst taking a break.

No team in Ireland will look at me again but at 22 years old, I'm a physical specimen who was highly rated and completely free to take a contract in France or England as a professional player which will no doubt be offered. I don't need to take drugs ever again, they've done what was needed.

I don't agree with life time bans against guys who are so young but it's an incredibly difficult area to legislate for.