Munster's Gerbrandt Grobler signing - right or wrong?

Vinnie222 · 17-01-2018 08:29PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ok so you think a rugby player will improve his performance by taking PEDs as much as a cyclist or swimmer?

Depends on the player , Drostanolone reduces body fat while increasing strength . Player becomes more mobile

irishbucsfan · 17-01-2018 08:40PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

It's not. The IRFU can stand by their zero tolerance stance and not sanction the players being employed in Ireland, regardless of the length of the ban.

It absolutely is illegal.

The IRFU not hiring someone does not mean they are banned from the sport. People are getting extremely confused about that though.

ThisRegard · 17-01-2018 08:43PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It absolutely is illegal.

The IRFU not hiring someone does not mean they are banned from the sport. People are getting extremely confused about that though.

I mean it's not a pointless debate, not that it's not illegal.

17-01-2018 08:43PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

Relative to a player of equal skill who doesn't. And players that do cheat obviously believe it gives them an advantage over others, be it for gains on the pitch or on the wage slip.

I don't know why you're comparing doping across sports though, it's no lesser an offence.

It's the same reasoning you're using.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/football-rife-with-performance-enhancing-drugs-a-1139238.html

Maybe you weren't following the conversation. Someone posted about the level of testing in rugby. I pointed out that it was probably enough to make sure there were no doping programs or institutional doping run by the provinces. I also said that a team sport player is less likely to dope as the physical side is only one aspect of the game, it's much more clear cut in most individual sports. O'Gara was one of the best there was, I think it's pretty clear he wasn't doping.

I'm only making comparisons in relation to the likelihood of doping and the level of testing between sports. All doping is bad.

17-01-2018 08:46PM

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Depends on the player , Drostanolone reduces body fat while increasing strength . Player becomes more mobile

It doesn't, a cyclist or swimmer or runner is purely a physical endurance sport with maximum benefit from drugs.

A rugby player can take all the drugs he wants, won't make him a better passer, offloader, tackler, defender etc etc etc etc.

Again I'm not saying there is no benefit, just that it's heavily diluted in a sport like rugby.

ThisRegard · 17-01-2018 08:46PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I also said that a team sport player is less likely to dope as the physical side is only one aspect of the game, it's much more clear cut in most individual sports. O'Gara was one of the best there was, I think it's pretty clear he wasn't doping.

I'm only making comparisons in relation to the likelihood of doping and the level of testing between sports. All doping is bad.

I follow, but disagree that just because it's a team sport you're less likely to dope, and benefit greatly from doping, for the reasons I posted.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A rugby player can take all the drugs he wants, won't make him a better passer, offloader, tackler, defender etc etc etc etc.

Again I'm not saying there is no benefit, just that it's heavily diluted in a sport like rugby.

It would make you a better tacker and defender through increased endurance, speed and strength.

irishbucsfan · 17-01-2018 08:48PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

I mean it's not a pointless debate, not that it's not illegal.

Ah yes, I see. I agree in that case.

Whether or not someone should be banned for life is a pointless debate. Certainly whether or not the IRFU should allow the signing of drugs cheats is not a pointless debate.

Vinnie222 · 17-01-2018 08:51PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It doesn't, a cyclist or swimmer or runner is purely a physical endurance sport with maximum benefit from drugs.

A rugby player can take all the drugs he wants, won't make him a better passer, offloader, tackler, defender etc etc etc etc.

Again I'm not saying there is no benefit, just that it's heavily diluted in a sport like rugby.

Are you telling me if a rugby player can shed unwanted fat while maintaining strength so he can go harder for longer doesnt make him a better player ?

Henry Ford III · 17-01-2018 08:56PM

I hope G.G. plays at the w/e and gets MOTM in a big Munster win.

The amount of moral high grounders here is hilarious.

Larbre34 · 17-01-2018 08:58PM

Munster knew they were playing with fire here, it will be a matter for their fans, I expect, as to whether his representing the province is acceptable or not. Put it this way, if this exact situation arose in Leinster and there was a protest or a boycott from within the fans, I would be supporting it.

It doesn't really wash that IRFU intend to change their policy to stop future examples of this, they have fumbled this one. Yes, lifetime bans dont appear to be legal, but the alternative is that Unions and clubs under their umbrella bypass all dopers.

ThisRegard · 17-01-2018 09:02PM

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The amount of moral high grounders here is hilarious.

You can make all the childish comments you like, doesn't change the fact that it's bad decision for the sport, the club involved and the IRFU with their zero tolerance policy.

And the highground is quite often the right place to find yourself standing, maybe even with a horse by your side.

The Lost Sheep · 17-01-2018 09:06PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Munster knew they were playing with fire here, it will be a matter for their fans, I expect, as to whether his representing the province is acceptable or not. Put it this way, if this exact situation arose in Leinster and there was a protest or a boycott from within the fans, I would be supporting it.

It doesn't really wash that IRFU intend to change their policy to stop future examples of this, they have fumbled this one. Yes, lifetime bans dont appear to be legal, but the alternative is that Unions and clubs under their umbrella bypass all dopers.

Protest or boycott what? Support it and do what.
He got a ban for doping, was punished with a ban, why exactly shouldnt he be accepted. You just move on.
If it was about the IRFU then this should have been happening 6 months ago.Why is this discussion only happening now?
IRFU havent fumbled anything. So its one chance and if you get a ban then good luck you cant get another contract then. What if it was an irish player would you be saying the same. Grobler has served his time, been punished. Everyone should just move on.

17-01-2018 09:10PM

Has he done his time should he be allowed to play again? yes

Is two years too short? probably yes

Should Munster have brought in a player who has failed a drug test served a ban? or should any Province in the future? given the IRFU's own publicised anti doping stance No is the answer to that.

but its done now and people going after GG is a bit mad.

Turnipman · 17-01-2018 09:10PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Protest or boycott what? Support it and do what.
He got a ban for doping, was punished with a ban, why exactly shouldnt he be accepted. You just move on.
If it was about the IRFU then this should have been happening 6 months ago.Why is this discussion only happening now?
IRFU havent fumbled anything. So its one chance and if you get a ban then good luck you cant get another contract then. What if it was an irish player would you be saying the same. Grobler has served his time, been punished. Everyone should just move on.

There are none so blind as those who will not see!

ThisRegard · 17-01-2018 09:10PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If it was about the IRFU then this should have been happening 6 months ago.Why is this discussion only happening now?
IRFU havent fumbled anything.

The fact the discussion is happening now doesn't matter.

Campaigns such as this make the IRFU look like they cocked up, or are just mealy mouthed.

The Lost Sheep · 17-01-2018 09:13PM

Turnipman wrote: »

There are none so blind as those who will not see!

What nonsense. He committed the offence. Was punished. Why does it need to go further. If he infringes again he gets a lifetime ban.
Im not blind at all on this issue

Former Former · 17-01-2018 09:21PM

Munster issued responses to questions raised by Off The Ball. They are absolutely shameful.

Here they are. Jaw dropping.

http://www.offtheball.com/Rugby/EXCLUSIVE:-Munster-Rugby-answer-OTBs-Gerbrandt-Grobler-Questions

17-01-2018 09:26PM

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Are you telling me if a rugby player can shed unwanted fat while maintaining strength so he can go harder for longer doesnt make him a better player ?

It does. But he has a lot of other skills and abilities he needs to rely on in addition to that. A runner for example just needs to cane it for whatever distance hence the greater reliance on peds

prawnsambo · 17-01-2018 09:27PM

Former Former wrote: »

Munster issued responses to questions raised by Off The Ball. They are absolutely shameful.

"Gerbrandt is an example to others in the academy". Sweet Jesus.

Here they are. Jaw dropping.

http://www.offtheball.com/Rugby/EXCLUSIVE:-Munster-Rugby-answer-OTBs-Gerbrandt-Grobler-Questions

That's selective quotinng FF. Surprised tbh.

Former Former · 17-01-2018 09:29PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's selective quotinng FF. Surprised tbh.

Sorry, I'm not a stenographer, edited now.

The full context is there for anyone who wants to read it.

prawnsambo · 17-01-2018 09:34PM

Former Former wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not a stenographer, edited now.

The full context is there for anyone who wants to read it.

Well they said he's an example of what can happen to you if you feck around with doping.

Which is fair enough. Without all the added furore that's happening now.

I'd say no young player would be prepared to have all that crap laniding on their shoulders.

Former Former · 17-01-2018 09:38PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well they said he's an example of what can happen to you if you feck around with doping.

Which is fair enough. Without all the added furore that's happening now.

I'd say no young player would be prepared to have all that crap laniding on their shoulders.

Or maybe they're looking at this absolute mountain of a man, thinking they should do what he did, calculating the odds of getting caught, maybe they're figuring that a 2 year ban wouldn't be the end of the world in the unlikely event of being caught. It hasn't hurt Grobler.

irishbucsfan · 17-01-2018 09:39PM

Great example.

If you get caught on the stuff you can take two years off with a fully semesterised weights program while still benefiting from the drugs you’ve taken and come back much bigger, which is perfect for getting a bit of an advantage. Anyone struggling in the academy will be comforted in that knowledge, particularly guys stuck behind South Africans who have been flown in based on their physical prowess.

17-01-2018 09:43PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Great example.

If you get caught on the stuff you can take two years off with a fully semesterised weights program while still benefiting from the drugs you’ve taken and come back much bigger, which is perfect for getting a bit of an advantage. Anyone struggling in the academy will be comforted in that knowledge, particularly guys stuck behind South Africans who have been flown in based on their physical prowess.

All of the thanks.

prawnsambo · 17-01-2018 09:43PM

Former Former wrote: »

Or maybe they're looking at this absolute mountain of a man, thinking they should do what he did, calculating the odds of getting caught, maybe they're figuring that a 2 year ban wouldn't be the end of the world in the unlikely event of being caught. It hasn't hurt Grobler.

Well since he's served his ban, he's had a year at Racing, probably at a knock-down price, been shuffled on to Munster for another year and has had a sh1tstorm blow up around him where he can't look at a newspaper and not see his name and inevitably will be let go at the end of his one year contract and have to try and peddle his wares somewhere else.

Not exactly a stellar career so far. And it's very precarious.

Larbre34 · 17-01-2018 09:53PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What if it was an irish player would you be saying the same. Grobler has served his time, been punished. Everyone should just move on.

Yes. The very same thing. I wouldn't care if it was Jonny Sexton himself. And I'm not just saying that because its easy to say in the hypothetical, our game is at something of a watershed between the hyper physicality of the game and the physique required to compete therein. As the grass roots and gate payers, we either have a zero tolerance and try to protect the game, or we watch it slide into the murk with cycling, track and field and others.

Feel free to move on yourself, this is a valid thread discussing a topical issue, you dont have to participate. Yes, Grobler has served the punishment he was given, but there is a lot more at stake here, and its churlish to pretend otherwise.

phog · 17-01-2018 09:56PM

Joe Delicious Skirmish wrote: »

Del Fava is just what-about-ery, plain and simple. Doesn't change for a second that Munster have gone and knowingly singed a drugs cheat. So much for honesty.

I think everyone who follows Irish rugby knows Munster signed a drug cheat, some of us knew a few months ago.

There's no whataboutery in relating Del Favo to the Grobler signing, two SA players, both banned for two years for drug taking but the latter is being told your ban isn't good enough, you can't play rugby here.

NIMBY

Stonyjim · 17-01-2018 09:59PM

Hypocrisy here is staggering I believe. My guess is that there is far more steroid use or if you want to call it abuse happening in this sport both in Ireland and globally than the public are aware of. I remember guys at college more than 20 years ago going up 2 or 3 suit sizes in a few months. I have heard rumours of several high profile players that played as Ireland internationals that have used juice from people who would know about using juice.

The gains in size that we see in young players can not happen with just diet and weights and certainly not over such a small time frame. I don't think it physically possible (without artificially doing so with chemical help) expect in the cases of the odd genetic freak. Some people are natural freaks of nature but they are few and there is not enough of these genetic anomalies around to fulfill the numbers that are playing rugby these last couple of decades.

This lad is just unfortunate enough to get caught doing what thousands are going globally and getting away with I believe.

prawnsambo · 17-01-2018 09:59PM

phog wrote: »

I think everyone who follows Irish rugby knows Munster signed a drug cheat, some of us knew a few months ago.

There's no whataboutery in relating Del Favo to the Grobler signing, two SA players, both banned for two years for drug taking but the latter is being told your ban isn't good enough, you can't play rugby here.

NIMBY

I don't think NIMBY is appropriate in this context. Unless it's Munster fans not wanting him here?

irishbucsfan · 17-01-2018 10:00PM

phog wrote: »

I think everyone who follows Irish rugby knows Munster signed a drug cheat, some of us knew a few months ago.

There's no whataboutery in relating Del Favo to the Grobler signing, two SA players, both banned for two years for drug taking but the latter is being told your ban isn't good enough, you can't play rugby here.

NIMBY

The signing of Del Favo was equally problematic. I’d show you my tweets from the time except it was years before Twitter existed. (edit: Twitter is older than I thought! But you catch my drift)

Munster's Gerbrandt Grobler signing - right or wrong?

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