Arguing over how much time to take off work with a newborn baby

brutha

I had a recent post in personal issues related to my wife's job situation.

I omitted from that post that my wife is pregnant and due in July.
My original post dealt with feeling out of empathy related to challenges in her career.

My wife is currently out of work and actively job seeking.
Up to this weekend, I had been pleasantly surprised by how well she had handled losing her job.
Her mood didn't seem overly affected by it and she just seemed to be getting on with the job hunting process.

She had a few quick rejections from job applications last week and an interview that she has yet to hear back from.
Her mood definitely took a dip this weekend from that. I'm been trying to be supportive and telling her she'll definitely get a job.
I'm not entirely sure how we got onto the topic but we ended up discussing this week how long she would be off work after the baby arrives.

We were in agreement in terms of what would happen if she landed a job before the baby arrives.
She would probably have to go back to work after 2 or 3 months (maternity laws are terrible in the States)

We had a big disagreement on what would happen if she was still out of work when the baby arrives.
We're lucky in that we can get by just on my salary. In my opinion, that would allow her to take say 6 months off after the baby arrives if she's not in a job.
We're both Irish and to me that is what you would at a minimum be doing if we lived and worked in Ireland.

She, in the scenario of not having a job, wants to start job hunting after 2 months with the goal of starting a new job at around 3 months.
I have to say I felt a bit pissed. I understand prioritizing going back to work after 2 / 3 months if you have to for keeping your job.
To essentially say though that even job hunting is a higher priority than spending 2 / 3 extra months with the baby seems ridiculous.

I understand that she's worried about getting her career back on track. If she doesn't get a job before the baby arrives though, there will be a gap on her resume no matter what. An extra few months won't change that. It probably is a sexist thing to way but I'm disappointed that our first kid ranks so low on her priorities. It can't even beat out job hunting for a few months.

Teyla Emmagan

There is no way she will be job hunting with a new born, I wouldn't worry. She's only panicking. When it comes down to it she will be far too exhausted and covered in baby goo to pull herself together for an interview.

I can't see many places taking on a pregnant lady though (she must be showing now). And going back after 3 months sounds barbaric to me. Horrible system.

brutha

That's essentially what I think as well.
The thing is though, am I supposed to "play along" and be supportive now while not actually expecting her to start job searching after 8 weeks.
She'll make a comment about me looking after the baby for a few afternoons a week after 8 weeks so she can start applying for jobs.

It seems duplicitous to say "yeah, I can do that" while actually thinking that sounds like a crazy idea.

December2012

She has a lot going on doesn’t she?

Trying to sort out her career, being pregnant, worrying about all that entails. And this against a backdrop of you feeling worn out to support her and resentful of the bad turns her career has taken (if I remember your thread correctly).

She will have noticed that resentment from you, and she’s trying - really trying - to not let pregnancy or a baby hold her back. And now you are giving out about her for this??

Are you ever happy?

You don’t like it when she’s trying to get employment (because she - SHE will be post partum and your baby will be little), but you didn’t like it when her career had difficulties beyond her control?

No wonder you’re rowing, you’ve a lot on and you’re not together on it. Maybe if you didn’t make such a big deal over that, she wouldn’t feel the need to prove herself so much? Maybe she wants to return to work?

Do her wants and needs matter at all? Is the real issue childcare?

You need to work together.

Chocolate fiend

If she wants to look for a job when the baby is 2-3 months old surely you will actually support her? If she feels ready to return to work then well that might be the right thing for her. From what I understand it is "easier" to get care for babies in the US than it is in other countries where mothers take much longer off after birth. Friends of mine in the US have been back at their desks when their babies were 6 weeks old. Not unusual for them, very hard for us to understand.

I would say support her, if she wants to return then help her to do that by either taking time off to care for the baby or helping find childcare.

circadian

I think you should be supporting her decisions, you need to work together even if you disagree on some things. A newborn and two working parents isn't going to be a walk in the park.

In my own opinion, I feel it is important for the parents to spend as much time as they can with the child in its first year.

I guess another thing to look at is childcare costs and how much your wife will be making. Is it worth it to go back to work and spend the money on childcare?

Snotty

I think you need a healthy dose of "cop-on". Your wife is pregnant and going through a tough time and you're fighting over hypotheticals, that if you had an ounce of "cop-on", you'd know probably won't be a factor when the baby actually comes.

Teyla Emmagan

brutha wrote:

The thing is though, am I supposed to "play along" and be supportive now while not actually expecting her to start job searching after 8 weeks.

Got it in one. A lot of things will change in the interim. Don't waste energy on something that will go away by itself.

woodchuck

It's a hypothetical argument atm. You don't know when she's going to get a job offer and if she doesn't, she might change her mind about how much time to take off once the baby actually arrives.

Presumably if she decides to apply for jobs 2 months after the baby is born, you will actually be supportive though OP? It's unfair to expect her to stay home and look after the baby if wants to get back to work. It's a bit hypocritical to say that you're happy for her to look after the baby for 3 months under one set of circumstances, but not for another.

Realistically, she's unlikely to be hired currently if she's starting to show (as sad as that situation is). So if she has already been looking for work for some time, she might be counting down the months until she is likely to be employable again (i.e. once she's not visibly pregnant). She has enough on her plate atm with being pregnant and looking for work. So don't add to her stress; you should be supportive!

shesty

Wait til the baby comes.
Neither of you have any idea how it will make you feel or what it will do to your lives.
There is just no point in either party making sweeping statements about what they will or won't do until then.

brutha

December2012 wrote: »

She has a lot going on doesn’t she?

You don’t like it when she’s trying to get employment (because she - SHE will be post partum and your baby will be little), but you didn’t like it when her career had difficulties beyond her control?

You need to work together.

Not sure how these two points get conflated together.
I agree with you that I don't like the idea of her job seeking at 2 months when she doesn't have to be. Is it that crazy to suggest she wait till around 5 months to start job seeking.

Chocolate fiend wrote: »

If she wants to look for a job when the baby is 2-3 months old surely you will actually support her? If she feels ready to return to work then well that might be the right thing for her. From what I understand it is "easier" to get care for babies in the US than it is in other countries where mothers take much longer off after birth. Friends of mine in the US have been back at their desks when their babies were 6 weeks old. Not unusual for them, very hard for us to understand.

I would say support her, if she wants to return then help her to do that by either taking time off to care for the baby or helping find childcare.

That's the entire point. I don't want to support her job seeking at 2 months. I think it's complete lunacy to be honest. Just because you can be back at work at 6 weeks doesn't mean you should. To reiterate, we're both Irish. Every friend of hers in Ireland has taken at least 6 months off, most have taken more than that. I'm not sure why we would voluntarily switch to the US model of ****ty maternity leave if we don't have to.

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Got it in one. A lot of things will change in the interim. Don't waste energy on something that will go away by itself.

The question then is what happens if at month 2, she still wants to job seek. I imagine if I posted another personal issue at that point, I would get answers along the lines of "You shouldn't have told her you were okay with it if you weren't"

Regarding people criticizing me over it being a hypothetical. I do believe that the most likely scenario is that she'll get a job before the baby arrives. However, there is a significant chance that she won't. This conversation at best can be delayed for a few months. If in a few months, my wife is 6 months pregnant and still out of work, odds are she's not getting a job before the baby arrives.

GingerLily

I think you two should engage in couples counselling, you clearly can't communicate and compromise effectively and life is about to get a whole lot more stressful with a little one in the mix.

Good luck.

strandroad

GingerLily wrote: »

I think you two should engage in couples counselling, you clearly can't communicate and compromise effectively and life is about to get a whole lot more stressful with a little one in the mix.

I second that. I remember your first thread and what you now posted about her pregnancy and about the country you're in changes the perspective quite a bit.

Your wife was not whining about losing a job as you made it look. She lost her job while pregnant, while in a country with no mature labour laws, maternity support or indeed universal healthcare. And no family support from what you're saying. Are you paying for the birth yourselves? How strong is your health insurance, I presume with no job she's your dependant? What deductibles and copays do you have? Are you covered if there are complications at birth or the baby has a condition?

She has good reasons to be freaking out. It seems like you gave her a lot of grief about her job on top of everything, you even posted a slanted thread to get more arguments for your side. She's trying to control the one thing she can from the list above, i.e. job hunting, and probably appease you too. If she does get a job, the expectation over there is to return to work quickly. And now you give her grief about that as well.

You should go to mediation and counselling before the baby arrives, to set the priorities and work on your communication.

BTW, if I was in your wife's place, I wouldn't be looking for long term employment now at all, but for short contracts or projects if her field allows them. Anything that is relevant and fills the gap in her resume.

Afroshack

Your posts seem to be focusing on your feelings, not your wife's. Have you considered that maybe she genuinely wants to be back at work, baby or no? Maybe she loves her job or the sense of purpose or accomplishment it gives her. Maybe she just wants the money or the independence. Maybe she gets bored easily and doesn't want to spend the next six months reading baby books and cleaning up poo?

Her career is obviously very important to her, and with new mothers its so important to help them maintain a sense of themselves - their own identities. If its getting their nails done or popping to work for adult conversation so be it - maybe she wants the breathing space for a few hours a week?

Ann84

Oh wow OP you sound like such a dinosaur to me! I can’t believe you are judging your wife’s choices like that - it’s a bit controlling to be honest.

Before she got pregnant did you feel you had the right to try to manipulate her into doing what you want? Or make decisions about her career and life?

Here is an “insane” idea for you - you want someone to sit at home and stare at the baby for 6 months - YOU do it.
If she wants to go back to work, that’s her decision. It’s your baby too, she may be making it but as soon as it’s born it’s your responsibility too!!
Why don’t you take a 3/4 month career break and leave your wife pursue her wants, just because she is a woman doesn’t mean she wants to take 6 months off.
Good grief, what ever happened to equality... I’m sure you will be just as capable of changing a nappy as she is.

Chocolate fiend

You don't want to support her job seeking when the baby is two months old - that sums it up. This is not just about you, and in fact if your wife wants to get a job when the baby is 2 months old it is still not about you. What she WANTS has to be where this falls, not what you want.

brutha

strandroad wrote: »

She has good reasons to be freaking out. It seems like you gave her a lot of grief about her job on top of everything, you even posted a slanted thread to get more arguments for your side. She's trying to control the one thing she can from the list above, i.e. job hunting, and probably appease you too. If she does get a job, the expectation over there is to return to work quickly. And now you give her grief about that as well.

I'm not sure where I mentioned giving her a lot of grief about her job. My original thread was completely about my reactions to her numerous job based depressive moments over the years. She as I mentioned had been dealing with losing her job pretty well till this weekend.

She started the weekend voicing concerns about "her career might be over" and things spiraled into the current argument we're having.

Also to repeat myself, I have no issue with her returning to work quickly if she has a job she has to get back to.

Ann84 wrote: »

Oh wow OP you sound like such a dinosaur to me! I can’t believe you are judging your wife’s choices like that - it’s a bit controlling to be honest.

Before she got pregnant did you feel you had the right to try to manipulate her into doing what you want? Or make decisions about her career and life?

Here is an “insane” idea for you - you want someone to sit at home and stare at the baby for 6 months - YOU do it.
If she wants to go back to work, that’s her decision. It’s your baby too, she may be making it but as soon as it’s born it’s your responsibility too!!
Why don’t you take a 3/4 month career break and leave your wife pursue her wants, just because she is a woman doesn’t mean she wants to take 6 months off.
Good grief, what ever happened to equality... I’m sure you will be just as capable of changing a nappy as she is.

So your advice is that I give up my job when the baby is 2 months old and neither of us is working until my wife gets a job? I don't get career breaks in my job.

Out of curiosity, what would your advice be if my wife posted a thread saying her husband wants to quit his job when our newborn baby is 2 months old and leave us with no income coming in?

Also to answer another comment, money is not a problem. I earn enough on my salary to support us in term of ongoing costs and baby delivery costs.

I guess I just completely disagree with most posters on this thread. I don't hear of anyone in Ireland going back to work within 6 months. I haven't lived in Ireland for a while so maybe that has changed? Yet most posters seem all in favor of women going back to work at 6 weeks or 3 months.

December2012

If your wife came on here and was asking for advice on when she should return to work, I would share with her the benefit of my experience.

But she isn't. You are on here, giving out about your wife, again, about her work, again.

If all you want is justification for you to continue arguing with your pregnant unemployed wife, about something which may, or may not happen, and at the end of the day is her choice, you may need to look elsewhere than an advice forum.

Can you honestly not see that you have contributed to her feelings?

qwerty13

Let’s face it, she can’t get a job she wants in academia. She was managed out of an industry job (if I remember correctly). She’s now pregnant. She’ll find it even more impossible to get a job in academia or industry.

What do you see your (joint) future as? All I can see is that you’re the breadwinner and she minds the kid, or that she works in admin. How do you realistically see this working?

brutha

Chocolate fiend wrote: »

You don't want to support her job seeking when the baby is two months old - that sums it up. This is not just about you, and in fact if your wife wants to get a job when the baby is 2 months old it is still not about you. What she WANTS has to be where this falls, not what you want.

This seems very one sided. So if my wife interviews somewhere at 8 weeks and starts a job at 10 weeks, I should be fine with that? It's clearly going to have a massive impact on us. We have zero family support where we live. No parents / siblings on either side are currently planning to come over to help us out. My brother who lives near my mother had a kid last year. My mother was a massive help to them. We won't have any of that.

Instead I'm supposed to be fine with the idea of us voluntarily working 2 full time jobs while putting a 10 week old baby in daycare? Maybe I have too negative a view about the demands of parenting but I foresee our lives being complete misery with that type of setup.

And we're putting ourselves through all that not so that she can keep an existing job but so that she can find and start a new job. God forbid you'd have a 14 month gap on your resume instead of an 11 month gap.

GingerLily

qwerty13 wrote: »

Let’s face it, she can’t get a job she wants in academia. She was managed out of an industry job (if I remember correctly). She’s now pregnant. She’ll find it even more impossible to get a job in academia or industry.

What do you see your (joint) future as? All I can see is that you’re the breadwinner and she minds the kid, or that she works in admin. How do you realistically see this working?

Jesus - a bit drastic - it's ridiculous that you're writing her off like this.

OP do not listen to this advice, because your wife will not forgive you if you give up on her and her career.

brutha

qwerty13 wrote: »

Let’s face it, she can’t get a job she wants in academia. She was managed out of an industry job (if I remember correctly). She’s now pregnant. She’ll find it even more impossible to get a job in academia or industry.

What do you see your (joint) future as? All I can see is that you’re the breadwinner and she minds the kid, or that she works in admin. How do you realistically see this working?

I see two options.
She gets a job before the baby arrives and she goes back to that job after the baby arrives.

Other option, she starts job seeking about 5 months after the baby arrives with a few to starting something at 6 months onwards. I honestly think she was really unlucky with the manger she had in her previous industry job. Several other people who work with that manager have a poor opinion of her as well. Pretty much the only person who rates the manager is the manager's manager. No win situation at that point.

brutha

December2012 wrote: »

If your wife came on here and was asking for advice on when she should return to work, I would share with her the benefit of my experience.

But she isn't. You are on here, giving out about your wife, again, about her work, again.

If all you want is justification for you to continue arguing with your pregnant unemployed wife, about something which may, or may not happen, and at the end of the day is her choice, you may need to look elsewhere than an advice forum.

Can you honestly not see that you have contributed to her feelings?

I'm giving out about my wife on an advice forum, not to her face.
To be honest, I've bitten my tongue on most situations related to her job.
I didn't say a word about her doing 70 hour weeks and stressing herself to the eyeballs in her effort to keep her job.

This coincided with the first few months of the pregnancy. We're both in our late thirties and had been trying for 2 years to get pregnant. If God forbid she had a miscarriage, it would have been hard to say the job stress didn't contribute to it. I didn't say anything, kept trying to be supportive. I was doing most of the cooking and cleaning to reduce work on her.

And again, what we're arguing about has a significant chance of happening. All those people saying to ignore it, when would be the ideal time to figure it out. 9 weeks after the baby is born?

qwerty13

brutha wrote: »

qwerty13 wrote: »

Let’s face it, she can’t get a job she wants in academia. She was managed out of an industry job (if I remember correctly). She’s now pregnant. She’ll find it even more impossible to get a job in academia or industry.

What do you see your (joint) future as? All I can see is that you’re the breadwinner and she minds the kid, or that she works in admin. How do you realistically see this working?

I see two options.
She gets a job before the baby arrives and she goes back to that job after the baby arrives.

Other option, she starts job seeking about 5 months after the baby arrives with a few to starting something at 6 months onwards. I honestly think she was really unlucky with the manger she had in her previous industry job. Several other people who work with that manager have a poor opinion of her as well. Pretty much the only person who rates the manager is the manager's manager. No win situation at that point.

Ok, but do you think it’s realistic that she’ll get a job she wants in acedemia in this timeframe (pre-birth). Based on what you’ve said before, I’ll venture that’s unlikely.

If she’s been managed out, I’d say it’s highly unlikely that she’ll get a comparable job in industry soon.

Also quite hard to get a job if people know you’re pregnant. It shouldn’t be that way, but such is reality.

If she puts all her hopes on getting her dream job post-birth, you are back to square 1 in your relationship, with the added complexity of a child. I’m not trying to depress you, but you and your wife gave some tough choice to make re career v money v parenting

qwerty13

GingerLily wrote: »

qwerty13 wrote: »

Let’s face it, she can’t get a job she wants in academia. She was managed out of an industry job (if I remember correctly). She’s now pregnant. She’ll find it even more impossible to get a job in academia or industry.

What do you see your (joint) future as? All I can see is that you’re the breadwinner and she minds the kid, or that she works in admin. How do you realistically see this working?

Jesus - a bit drastic - it's ridiculous that you're writing her off like this.

OP do not listen to this advice, because your wife will not forgive you if you give up on her and her career.

I really don’t think I’m telling the OP to give up on her / her career; I think I’m just being realistic. Her ship has passed for academia, and she’s now shot her bolt re industry. There’s not many options left, especially for someone the interviewer know is pregnant

Chocolate fiend

brutha wrote: »

This seems very one sided. So if my wife interviews somewhere at 8 weeks and starts a job at 10 weeks, I should be fine with that? It's clearly going to have a massive impact on us. We have zero family support where we live. No parents / siblings on either side are currently planning to come over to help us out. My brother who lives near my mother had a kid last year. My mother was a massive help to them. We won't have any of that.

Instead I'm supposed to be fine with the idea of us voluntarily working 2 full time jobs while putting a 10 week old baby in daycare? Maybe I have too negative a view about the demands of parenting but I foresee our lives being complete misery with that type of setup.

And we're putting ourselves through all that not so that she can keep an existing job but so that she can find and start a new job. God forbid you'd have a 14 month gap on your resume instead of an 11 month gap.

It is HER choice when she goes back to work, she might not ever want to go back but it is her choice.

As for no family support, we have 3 children and no family on the same continent as us, heck none in the same hemisphere even.

brutha

Chocolate fiend wrote: »

It is HER choice when she goes back to work, she might not ever want to go back but it is her choice.

As for no family support, we have 3 children and no family on the same continent as us, heck none in the same hemisphere even.

So is it solely MY choice if I decide to give up my job and become a stay at home dad when she does not have a job? I guess I just fundamentally disagree with you on this. Why would I have no say on a decision that heavily impacts me? My wife wouldn't stand for that about any decision I'd make that impacts here.

Regards job prospects, she's looking for another job in industry. qwerty13 is correct that the ship has sailed regards academia. She should imo be fine regards industry. She can easily describe her exit from her last company as a layoff. She's not going to be telling other companies that she was managed out. That would just be self sabotage. Layoffs are part of life over here. It doesn't stop you getting a new job in industry.

GingerLily

If I was your wife and found this thread I'd be super mad at you, you need to stop discussing your wife's life choices with strangers on the Internet, she deserves some privacy.

Why did you ignore the suggestion of couples counselling?

Why do you dismiss all posts that you don't like?

woodchuck

You keep mentioning the longer maternity leave in Ireland. But you're not IN Ireland. It may come off bad to potential employers if she doesn't go back to work a few months after the birth. Or god forbid, she may actually WANT to go back to work. Given your previous thread, she probably feels a lot of pressure from you in this regard - even if you're not giving out to her to her face, I can pretty much guarantee she picks up on your resentment (who wouldn't). The poor girls head must be wrecked. First you're pressuring her to get a job. Now you're pressuring her to stay home with the baby.

You also mention not having family around to help. That sucks, it really does. But you're going to have to deal with that reality sooner or later. I don't see what difference it makes whether you put your child in day care at 3 months vs 6 months.

professore

OP not sure if there have been any replies here from another man.

I think a lot of the replies here are unreasonably harsh. There is an ocean of info out there for expectant mothers (a lot of it utter rubbish, but that's another story), and very little for expectant fathers - a massive gap in my opinion.

Having gone through 3 children and seen various friends go through the same, things will very likely change beyond all recognition after the baby comes. If you are trying to use reason and logic you need to throw that out the window. There is a phenomenon known as baby brain, look it up. Your wife's hormones are going to be all over the place so let all this stuff lie.

I think it's a shame that modern society makes your wife feel the need to be job hunting at this stage, as if a "career" is anything other than a way of paying the bills at the end of the day - while you never get the time back with your kids. They would rather you were there in rags than in Hong Kong making million dollar deals. That goes for you too by the way - you should be a dad first and foremost.

You should also look out for post partum depression, as this is very common after a first baby.

Take care of your wife, cut her a bit of slack, and enjoy the future. It will be challenging but ultimately rewarding.

And don't apologise for having your own views on things, marriage should be a partnership where big life decisions are made together - and your wife going back to work 2 months in is a huge life decision.

LegacyUser

brutha wrote: »

I don't hear of anyone in Ireland going back to work within 6 months. I haven't lived in Ireland for a while so maybe that has changed? Yet most posters seem all in favor of women going back to work at 6 weeks or 3 months.

My mum was back working after 2 weeks for both her kids and that was in the mid 80s, more recently any of my friends my age (late 20s/early 30s) who've had kids have been back in work at roughly 6 weeks. The only one (and it's just one) that didn't opted to stay home full time which was the choice she and her partner came to together. So this notion that the majority of women in Ireland are taking 6 full months off is very outdated. Do all woman want to go back in 6 weeks after giving birth? No but equally just as many don't want to stay home and there's a big push for Ireland to be more like other European countries that allow both parents to share leave equally as there are plenty of fathers who'd like the time off to spend with their new child.