Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

everlast75

And the news today that there was a deputy outside the school, presumably with a gun, and HE didn't intervene?

spacecoyote

Leroy42 wrote: »

Or misses and shoots an innocent dead. The level of missed shots by both the military and the police is quite high, I am not sure of the exact levels but I know it is know-where close to 100% (excluding snipers etc, I am talking about a like for like situation).

And in many cases the misses are by some margin, ie, a few feet either side. This is down to a number of factors, mostly due to the target actively trying to avoid being shot, the stress of the situation, and the chaos of the situation itself, with alarms going off, people screaming, probably death people lying on the floor, people running in all directions, the noise, smoke etc. All very different to the practice range.

And one must also take into account that the guy who did this walked out of the school afterwards as one of the students and ended up in McD's (or something similar). The point being, that even the kids in the school were confused about exactly what was going on and who was doing it.

And they think that some teacher (I mean that in terms of them not being a professional police or soldier) will be able to overcome all the things that effect fully trained police and soldiers and simply take out the gun man? And they say that the youth is being influenced by movies and video games?

Take even the previous shooting in a Texas church as an example. A man, with many years of shooting practice, confronted the gun man as he came out of the church. Not saying he wasn't a hero, but in effect he missed. The shooter was able to escape (at least from a brief period). Now, if that guy couldn't make it perfect, why should we think a teacher will do any better.

That and the fact of being faced with actually killing someone. My wife is a teacher & I know from her & pretty much all of here colleagues, both male & female, that, generally speaking, they are more empathetic & emotional people than people working say, in the military or police armed response units.

The idea of shooting someone dead, even if they are running around with a gun would be a very tough thing to deal with psychologically for the vast majority of teachers. And that's working on the assumption of 100% accuracy. Imagine the damage you'd do to someone if they accidentally shot a innocent child or colleague

jooksavage

The details circulating about Manafort and Gates' indictments don't exactly paint them as criminal masterminds. Manafort apparently left a paper trail by sending profit+loss statements to Gates to convert them from PDFs into Word docs. The documents were sent back to Manafort who then altered them (to conceal massive losses) and then he SENT THEM BACK to Gates to convert them back into PDFs.

Holy crap. These guys are hopeless.

Professor Moriarty

jooksavage wrote: »

The details circulating about Manafort and Gates' indictments don't exactly paint them as criminal masterminds. Manafort apparently left a paper trail by sending profit+loss statements to Gates to convert them from PDFs into Word docs. The documents were sent back to Manafort who then altered them (to conceal massive losses) and then he SENT THEM BACK to Gates to convert them back into PDFs.

Holy crap. These guys are hopeless.

Yes, but The Donald would be far too smart to make such stupid mistakes. Amirite?

jooksavage

jooksavage wrote: »

The details circulating about Manafort and Gates' indictments don't exactly paint them as criminal masterminds. Manafort apparently left a paper trail by sending profit+loss statements to Gates to convert them from PDFs into Word docs. The documents were sent back to Manafort who then altered them (to conceal massive losses) and then he SENT THEM BACK to Gates to convert them back into PDFs.

Holy crap. These guys are hopeless.

He seems to be pretty confident that he will get out of this mess.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/375201-manafort-confident-he-will-be-acquitted-of-all-charges

I don't have the link handy but I saw on Reddit last night that Gates fired his lawyers.

everlast75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He seems to be pretty confident that he will get out of this mess.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/375201-manafort-confident-he-will-be-acquitted-of-all-charges

I don't have the link handy but I saw on Reddit last night that Gates fired his lawyers.

People usually do when they don't like the legal advice they are getting.. ie you're screwed

robinph

everlast75 wrote: »

And the news today that there was a deputy outside the school, presumably with a gun, and HE didn't intervene?

I think he was quite right not to.

Unless the bad guy walked up to him and handed over his weapon then that lone security guard is best off keeping well out of the way. He's there to act as a deterrent, not an action movie hero. If he happened to be in the right place at the right time as it all kicked off then he may have been able to do something about it. But I got the impression that he arrived after it began and hung around at the entrance. Best he could do is stay there and be available when the SWAT team arrive to let them know the layout of the school and where he thinks people are.

Them blaming that lone security guard for this is very wrong.

mcmoustache

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have the link handy but I saw on Reddit last night that Gates fired his lawyers.

His 3 original lawyers parted ways with him for reasons that are under seal. It could be that he lied to them or that he wasn't taking their advice or the he fired them. It's not clear but it's clear that they are no longer representing him.

Last night, he seemed to have fired Tom Green, who's known for making plea deals, and then rehired him. Last night is when the 32 count indictment dropped. I don't know the timeline here but it would be funny if it went like this:

1. Gates gets brave, fires Green
2. Weissman drops the 32 count indictment on the table
3. Gates hugs Green's leg begging him to come back

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

He seems to be pretty confident that he will get out of this mess.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/375201-manafort-confident-he-will-be-acquitted-of-all-charges

I don't have the link handy but I saw on Reddit last night that Gates fired his lawyers.

Well, the stories I heard is that his lawlers resigned. But either way getting rid of your lawyers is always a big call to make. Apparently Gates is not that wealthy in terms of fighting such a legal battle and I would suspect has less high up friends.

Manafort said he was confident of being cleared of all the previous charges, even took a case to have them dropped. Now he is faced with a slew of new charges.

It is certainly looking very dicey for Manafort (which at the present time is quite separate to the collusion issue) but as the trial date gets closer it will be interesting to watch what Trump does. Will he pardon Manafort? Faced with a likely conviction will Manafort spill the beans about the Trump Tower meeting, about other Russia contacts etc.?

jooksavage

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He seems to be pretty confident that he will get out of this mess.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/375201-manafort-confident-he-will-be-acquitted-of-all-charges

I don't have the link handy but I saw on Reddit last night that Gates fired his lawyers.

Yes that's being reported alright. His lawyer was trying to get him to make a plea deal with Mueller. That's generally not a sign thay you've got a strong case. I'm guessing Mueller decided to raise the stakes by piling on more charges when that plea deal went nowhere.

Maybe they've got a chance of beating this but the stuff that's out there makes them look outright fraudsters and convictions will carry very long jail sentences. Perhaps theyre hoping Trump will pardon them out of this mess, although my understanding is they can still be prosecuted at a state level.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Well, the stories I heard is that his lawlers resigned. But either way getting rid of your lawyers is always a big call to make. Apparently Gates is not that wealthy in terms of fighting such a legal battle and I would suspect has less high up friends.

Manafort said he was confident of being cleared of all the previous charges, even took a case to have them dropped. Now he is faced with a slew of new charges.

It is certainly looking very dicey for Manafort (which at the present time is quite separate to the collusion issue) but as the trial date gets closer it will be interesting to watch what Trump does. Will he pardon Manafort? Faced with a likely conviction will Manafort spill the beans about the Trump Tower meeting, about other Russia contacts etc.?

I imagine he would die in prison if found guilty on these new charges. Mueller is ramping up the pressure but I don't think I would be as cocky about it as Manafort is unless I believed there was a pardon coming.

spacecoyote

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is certainly looking very dicey for Manafort (which at the present time is quite separate to the collusion issue) but as the trial date gets closer it will be interesting to watch what Trump does. Will he pardon Manafort? Faced with a likely conviction will Manafort spill the beans about the Trump Tower meeting, about other Russia contacts etc.?

Are the charges being brought at state or federal level? Isn't there a difference around pardoning rules dependent on who brings the charges?

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is certainly looking very dicey for Manafort (which at the present time is quite separate to the collusion issue) but as the trial date gets closer it will be interesting to watch what Trump does. Will he pardon Manafort?

I don't think pardoning Manafort before he is convicted of anything would be a good look for Trump - like Ford's pardon of Nixon, it is essentially an admission that Manafort committed crimes.

circadian

If pardoned then Manafort can't plead the 5th in any case relating to it.

SkepticQuark

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I don't think pardoning Manafort before he is convicted of anything would be a good look for Trump - like Ford's pardon of Nixon, it is essentially an admission that Manafort committed crimes.

Since when he has cared about looks? Trump is right when he says he could shoot someone and still get the support of his adoring fans. I mean he's already pardoned people like Joe Arpaio...

everlast75

robinph wrote: »

I think he was quite right not to.

Unless the bad guy walked up to him and handed over his weapon then that lone security guard is best off keeping well out of the way. He's there to act as a deterrent, not an action movie hero. If he happened to be in the right place at the right time as it all kicked off then he may have been able to do something about it. But I got the impression that he arrived after it began and hung around at the entrance. Best he could do is stay there and be available when the SWAT team arrive to let them know the layout of the school and where he thinks people are.

Them blaming that lone security guard for this is very wrong.

I agree. My point was if he froze, why the hell do they think a teacher wouldn't?

Really Interested

robinph wrote: »

I think he was quite right not to.

Unless the bad guy walked up to him and handed over his weapon then that lone security guard is best off keeping well out of the way. He's there to act as a deterrent, not an action movie hero. If he happened to be in the right place at the right time as it all kicked off then he may have been able to do something about it. But I got the impression that he arrived after it began and hung around at the entrance. Best he could do is stay there and be available when the SWAT team arrive to let them know the layout of the school and where he thinks people are.

Them blaming that lone security guard for this is very wrong.

He was not a security guard he was a deputy a armed police officer. He may very well have decided it was dangerous to go in but that puts Trump’s armed teacher idea and shows it won’t work if an armed police office was on site and still kids died.

EltonJohn69

"Our schools are gun free zones, that makes them very dangerous places" D Trump

smart guy

listermint

robinph wrote: »

I think he was quite right not to.

Unless the bad guy walked up to him and handed over his weapon then that lone security guard is best off keeping well out of the way. He's there to act as a deterrent, not an action movie hero. If he happened to be in the right place at the right time as it all kicked off then he may have been able to do something about it. But I got the impression that he arrived after it began and hung around at the entrance. Best he could do is stay there and be available when the SWAT team arrive to let them know the layout of the school and where he thinks people are.

Them blaming that lone security guard for this is very wrong.

** for clarity it was a uniformed Sheriffs deputy, not a mall cop.


(just for clarity)

mcmoustache

mcmoustache wrote: »

His 3 original lawyers parted ways with him for reasons that are under seal. It could be that he lied to them or that he wasn't taking their advice or the he fired them. It's not clear but it's clear that they are no longer representing him.

Last night, he seemed to have fired Tom Green, who's known for making plea deals, and then rehired him. Last night is when the 32 count indictment dropped. I don't know the timeline here but it would be funny if it went like this:

1. Gates gets brave, fires Green
2. Weissman drops the 32 count indictment on the table
3. Gates hugs Green's leg begging him to come back

Aaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnd, it looks like he's pleading guilty.

Hazys

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im completely convinced now, as the weeks, months and years pass by, this country is slowly moving towards civil war

It certainly feels like it. The country is becoming more and more divided each year, the two party system is destroying the country:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEczkhfLwqM

Every election and every vote depending on which side of it you are on is either a massive win or a massive loss, there is little to no bi-partisan middle ground. Each election gets nastier and nastier than the last.

Both sides have 0 trust in the other side. Every issue appears or is argued as black and white with little grey; Immigration: Kick every illegal out Vs let every body in or Guns: More Guns or Ban all guns.

With the advent of people just reading the news they want to hear, both sides dig deeper and deeper into the left or the right. CNN and FoxNews may as well being speaking different languages in how they report the same stories.

Unless they break the two parties up, the country is fcuked but that does not look its ever going to happen.

EltonJohn69

trump on fire at cpac .... like a young Richard Prior

robinph

listermint wrote: »

** for clarity it was a uniformed Sheriffs deputy, not a mall cop.


(just for clarity)

When you are on your own with a handgun and a small handful of ammo against a kid with high powered, high capacity, rapid fire weapon and who knows what else he may as well have been the lollipop lady.

PopePalpatine

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

trump on fire at cpac .... like a young Richard Prior

All of his fireproof tightie-whities must be in the wash.

listermint

robinph wrote: »

When you are on your own with a handgun and a small handful of ammo against a kid with high powered, high capacity, rapid fire weapon and who knows what else he may as well have been the lollipop lady.

No one is arguing the right and wrong, clarifying your mistake in implying this was not a law enforcement officer (which it was)

EltonJohn69

trump is reciting an anti immigration poem on tv called the snake
he sounds so unhinged

copperhead

It's Soo hard to believe that this person is the president of one of the biggest powers in the world and probably the most powerful man on the planet, its scary and quiet frankly unbelievable, his strategy to deal with the school shootings in America is to put more guns in the school

Really Interested

copperhead wrote: »

It's Soo hard to believe that this person is the president of one of the biggest powers in the world and probably the most powerful man on the planet, its scary and quiet frankly unbelievable, his strategy to deal with the school shootings in America is to put more guns in the school

We have seen in History power does not always mean clever.

robinph

listermint wrote: »

No one is arguing the right and wrong, clarifying your mistake in implying this was not a law enforcement officer (which it was)

I'm not disagreeing/ arguing with you, honest.

I miss spoke in calling him a "security guard", but it is actually not really relevant what his job title was, who paid his salary or what shaped badge he wore. The important points are that he was on his own and armed with a spud gun in comparison to who Trump expects him to have killed.

I suspect that Trump just wants him to have died as then they can add "cop killer" to the charge sheet.

Really Interested

robinph wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing/ arguing with you, honest.

I miss spoke in calling him a "security guard", but it is actually not really relevant what his job title was, who paid his salary or what shaped badge he wore. The important points are that he was on his own and armed with a spud gun in comparison to who Trump expects him to have killed.

I suspect that Trump just wants him to have died as then they can add "cop killer" to the charge sheet.

So the 40% of teachers Trump wants to arm will walk around school with M16's?