Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

demfad

mcmoustache wrote: »

This doesn't imply collusion, see the word "Unwitting".

The big charges will be withheld and saved for those further up the food chain.

The 'other political operatives' is interesting. No 'unwitting' there.

Apparently a lot of Russian bots were re-purposed after Brexit for the US election.
Leave.eu (UKIP) claimed to have there own bot network operating out of Bristol.

I am growing in confidence that Trump/Brexit was more or less the same operation from the Russia & friends position: same apparatus used. Same people?

everlast75

Collusion is not a crime apparently.

Anyhoo - do we reckon these charges came about from info gleaned from Gates?

demfad

everlast75 wrote: »

Collusion is not a crime apparently.

Anyhoo - do we reckon these charges came about from info gleaned from Gates?

Gates knows what Manafort knows, and Gates hasn't signed the plea yet.

The bot/disinformation stuff had been going on in 20-30 countries already by Russia. (See Russian interference thread) They do use some locals though although they would not necessarily have to use (witting) Trump associates here.

The message coordination between Trump/Wikileaks/IRA is exact. Russia must have a formula for this based on the wider cyber war.

Here is the link to the dashboard monitoring the St Petersburg Trolls:
Wonder will they trend their own indictments?

http://dashboard.securingdemocracy.org/

BabyCheeses

Hurrache wrote: »

Obvious and logical question then must be asked, why? What was in it for them?

Less sanctions maybe? We have already seen new sanctions get ignored under Trump.

mcmoustache

Hurrache wrote: »

Obvious and logical question then must be asked, why? What was in it for them?

It's easier for Russia to assert itself while the US is in chaos.

demfad

BabyCheeses wrote: »

Less sanctions maybe? We have already seen new sanctions get ignored under Trump.

The quid pro quo involving Gates was to lower the RNC platform on Ukraine in response for Russian help.

Don Jr was asked to remove the Magnitsky sanctions for Russian help.
'I Love it!' he said.

Papadopolous was offered 100,000s of Clinton emails in exchange for removing sanctions I would bet.

demfad

mcmoustache wrote: »

It's easier for Russia to assert itself while the US is in chaos.

Also the State dept which imposes US global soft power is in chaos. People or not being replaced, budget is gutted.
The US shift to fossil and anti-green is another Russian foreign policy objective (for the US).

Noel82

Hurrache wrote: »

Obvious and logical question then must be asked, why? What was in it for them?

To create division and sow doubt in America's political landscape

Rosenstein

“After the election, the defendants allegedly staged rallies to support the president-elect, while simultaneously staging rallies to protest his election,” Rosenstein told reporters. “For example, the defendant organized one rally to support the president-elect and another rally to oppose him, both in New York, on the same day.”

What are the chances of extradition here? I'd say slim to none considering what went on with the Snowden affair. I'd also say it's fairly obvious this type of thing is a regular occurrence with different groups like open society in Politics worldwide. The news of facebook groups creating Political turmoil with devious intentions isn't exactly jawdropping even if such accounts were Russian based.

Leroy42

Whether this is saying collusion or not, the clear question is why has Trump so far refused to do anything to counter the clear Russian interference.

Why would any American simply sit by and do nothing. He seems totally uninterested. And what does he say know that apparently Putin was lying to him all those months ago? Will he now expel the ambassador and ask for Putin to take action?

mcmoustache

Noel82 wrote: »

What are the chances of extradition here? I'd say slim to none considering what went on with the Snowden affair. I'd also say it's fairly obvious this type of thing is a regular occurrence with different groups like open society in Politics worldwide. The news of facebook groups creating Political turmoil with devious intentions isn't exactly jawdropping even if such accounts were Russian based.

My guess is zero.

On the other hand, this looks like good PR. Mueller and Rosenstein versus the Russians. It also shows that the Nothingburger talking point can be put to rest. It makes it that bit harder to remove the DAG and/or Mueller.

mcmoustache

Leroy42 wrote: »

Whether this is saying collusion or not, the clear question is why has Trump so far refused to do anything to counter the clear Russian interference.

Why would any American simply sit by and do nothing. He seems totally uninterested. And what does he say know that apparently Putin was lying to him all those months ago? Will he now expel the ambassador and ask for Putin to take action?

Doubtful. I hope there's a twitter tantrum though. He can't be a happy man today.

Noel82

I think it's obvious Trump knows some Russians/Putin were helping him in the final months of the election and as such he sees them as a powerful ally of sorts. He cannot say that publicly. Whether he was involved is subject to change but my gut tells me he just went along with it as it was benefiting him enormously especially online where Wikileaks was the number one Political topic in October and November on face-book and twitter.

mcmoustache

Noel82 wrote: »

I think it's obvious Trump knows some Russians/Putin were helping him in the final months of the election and as such he sees them as a powerful ally of sorts. He cannot say that publicly. Whether he was involved is subject to change but my gut tells me he just went along with it as it was benefiting him enormously especially online where Wikileaks was the number one Political topic in October and November on face-book and twitter.

If he just went along with it, while at the same time knowing about Junior, Kushner and Manafort's meeting with Veselnetskaya(sp?), it's not a good look.

UsedToWait

Extremely poor timing by the FBI though.

On the day it's reported they were warned about the school shooter..

Reeks of burying bad news, and manna for the Deep State conspiracists.

mcmoustache

Trump may be on the path to accepting that the Russians stuck their penises in the punch bowl.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/964594780088033282

mcmoustache

UsedToWait wrote: »

Extremely poor timing by the FBI though.

On the day it's reported they were warned about the school shooter..

Reeks of burying bad news, and manna for the Deep State conspiracists.

Neither Mueller nor Rosenstein work for the FBI. Even r/the_donald don't seem to be going down that route although who's to say what they'll come up with.

UsedToWait

mcmoustache wrote: »

Neither Mueller nor Rosenstein work for the FBI.

Semantics... former Director Mueller?
Undoubtedly the optics are terrible.

Noel82

UsedToWait wrote: »

Extremely poor timing by the FBI though.

I don't really blame the FBI honestly, they're probably warned about dozens of people every day. There's not much they can do.

I don't agree with outlawing guns but there needs to be more stringent databases that flag social media content for gun owners.

mcmoustache

Noel82 wrote: »

I don't really blame the FBI honestly, they're probably warned about dozens of people every day. There's not much they can do.

I don't agree with outlawing guns but there needs to be more stringent databases that flag social media content for gun owners.

I would say most people in the US would agree with you. It's too late to outlaw guns at this point in the US but they should be kept away from the unhinged.

vetinari

In a country with no serious appetite for gun control, it's a bit rich to now all of a sudden be mad at the FBI for not preventing the attack.
America doesn't care about dead children in schools. There'll be some more shot in a few weeks. Any moaning about the FBI is probably from people looking to deflect from the Russia investigation.

VonZan

vetinari wrote: »

In a country with no serious appetite for gun control, it's a bit rich to now all of a sudden be mad at the FBI for not preventing the attack.
America doesn't care about dead children in schools. There'll be some more shot in a few weeks. Any moaning about the FBI is probably from people looking to deflect from the Russia investigation.

Whatever about deflection from Russia, there are serious questions to be answered as to why there was nothing done after all the red flags he raised.

There is no serious appetite for gun control because lobby groups control both houses.

Edit: The FBI have already admitted incompetence in this matter https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-statement-on-the-shooting-in-parkland-florida

Akrasia

If the FBI had to arrest someone every time someone posted a trolley comment on social media they'd have no time to hunt political corruption.. Oh Wait....

UsedToWait

vetinari wrote: »

Any moaning about the FBI is probably from people looking to deflect from the Russia investigation.

That was my point.
They've given the trumpites the ammunition, pardon the pun.

aloyisious

The GOP [deputy chair] seem to have accepted the truth of the announcement from the DOJ that the Russians were interfering with the US presidential election in 2016 by saying the Russians did interfere with it, however much Don's tweet seems to imply it was all from two years previous.

Manic Moran

everlast75 wrote: »

In the interests of balance, here is a link to all donations to both parties.
Interesting to see that over time, with the exception of about 4 years in and around 2010, the percentage for Dems has fallen significantly

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals.php?id=d000000082&cycle=2014

The number of Blue Dog Democrats (i.e. those more moderate ones, often from states like Montana) has also been falling over the last few years, though, granted, there was a sudden reversal this most recent cycle. The NRA's position is that they will support whichever campaign is considered most pro-gun with the closest rating to A+. If both contenders are generally considered equally pro-gun, they will support the incumbent, as there is a track record of being in power and voting that way. I suspect that part of the problem is the Republican gains are knocking the Blue Dogs out of competition: The only major Ds left are those who are hard opposed to firearms, only four Democrat senators have "A" ratings from the NRA.

The full list of campaign contributions (both direct and indirect) is in the link below. You've got to go a ways down to find the Ds supported. A quick scan down the list shows Ds from Georgia, Texas, Minnesota, Ohio, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Florida, South Carolina, Oregon, Tenessee, Vermont, New Mexico. All States with strong firearms traditions.

The other point to note in terms of pure dollar value, the senators are the ones getting the big bucks, which is not surprising as they have to fight state-wide, often in balanced states, and they also have more individual power. Also, the nature of the State and the opposition is important: McCain only gets a "B" from the NRA, but being vulnerable and against a "D" rating opponent, it was more important to spend money there than on John Tester, who is an "A-" rating Democrat, but whoever won the election in Montana was going to be pro-gun. Same with Manchin in WV.

Note that the chart also shows dollar values spent in opposition. Chris Coons is an interesting one. Officially the NRA didn't support anyone, unofficially, the NRA threw money at both!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-7PdCI2NawSgP1QE-cGYVYedetYqepR-4jBweaJyqFo/edit#gid=1782600961

Noel82

If Russia supported both Sanders and Trump it seems somewhat possible they tried to promote the two candidates who are ideologically furthest apart. At least that goes along with the groups that were setup on facebook and the likes.

There is definitely another argument that they just flat out wanted Clinton to lose. Interesting yet conniving bunch, those Russians.

mcmoustache

Noel82 wrote: »

If Russia supported both Sanders and Trump it seems somewhat possible they tried to promote the two candidates who are ideologically furthest apart. At least that goes along with the groups that were setup on facebook and the likes.

There is definitely another argument that they just flat out wanted Clinton to lose. Interesting yet conniving bunch, those Russians.

This was known and pointed out over a year ago. To give you an example, a former user, who's no longer around, let's call him Hank S, no H Scorpio, dismissed it all as a nothingburger and fake news. This all despite the intelligence committee hearings in both the house and senate laying their evidence on the table.

This is not new.

UsedToWait

Rala_ wrote: »

No! We need 5 year plans transform the country!

Yes comrade!

Quin_Dub

Leroy42 wrote: »

Whether this is saying collusion or not, the clear question is why has Trump so far refused to do anything to counter the clear Russian interference.

Why would any American simply sit by and do nothing. He seems totally uninterested. And what does he say know that apparently Putin was lying to him all those months ago? Will he now expel the ambassador and ask for Putin to take action?

He can't..

To admit that the Russians interfered with the election would be an admission that the victory might not have been all about him.

It is utterly impossible for Trump to admit to anything like that, his narcissism simply won't allow it, however ridiculous it seems to everyone else to continue to deny it.

Noel82

mcmoustache wrote: »

This was known and pointed out over a year ago. To give you an example, a former user, who's no longer around, let's call him Hank S, no H Scorpio, dismissed it all as a nothingburger and fake news. This all despite the intelligence committee hearings in both the house and senate laying their evidence on the table.

This is not new.

What was said was there was questions to be asked as to why the DNC denied access to their server to the FBI and DHS. ( They are currently in a buzzfeed lawsuit and still won't hand it over ). That isn't a "nothingburger". I never said there was no fake facebook pages or whatever, that crap is everywhere. The CIA interfered in dozens if not hundreds of foreign elections, where was the out cry then? How can one know if the DNC wasn't hacked by multiple entities?

If you applied the same scrutiny to pro DNC / Hillary whoever messages you'd find similar groups promoting them who aren't legitimate.

The only reason it's relevant now is a) because Trump won and b) because there was allegedly dumps sent to Wikileaks from a cut out

https://www.npr.org/2016/12/22/506625913/database-tracks-history-of-u-s-meddling-in-foreign-elections

What's been said here over the last 16 months is that Trump colluded with the Russians akin to Wikileaks and the email dumps, still waiting for any evidence of that.

Todays news is a massive blow to those who said Trump's campaign colluded. The words non-wittingly are there for all to see.