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Anti #MeToo letter defends men's right to 'steal a kiss'

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    #92
    Cocobolo55
    Site Banned Posts: 5 ✭Cocobolo55


    Anytime you initiate contact with a stranger you never know 100% if they want that contact, so what, welcome to being a human and to socialising. For some of you in your basement that might be a scary prospect, but I recommend going out and meeting people in real life and taking the "risk" to meet people and initiate human connection face to face.


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    #93
    s7ryf3925pivug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Who has been labelled something for just trying to kiss someone?

    Have any of the sexual assault perpetrators been arrested?

    There's a lot of hypocrisy where these people are suddenly outraged by something they've accepted for decades. Not a witch hunt though.


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    #94
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Brady Shapely Pinball wrote: »
    Who has been labelled something for just trying to kiss someone?

    Have any of the sexual assault perpetrators been arrested?

    There's a lot of hypocrisy where these people are suddenly outraged by something they've accepted for decades. Not a witch hunt though.

    I beg to differ - it is witch hunt when there's a different man every other day being accused and some of the accusations are about such minor things as texts.

    Liam Neeson mentioned a DJ who put his hand on a friend's back to comfort while she was telling a difficult and tragic story on his station and was later done for sexual assault because of it.

    How is that not a witch hunt?


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    #95
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I feel I should point out here, before anyone accuses me of being anti women or pro sexual assault etc, that I am a woman and that I have had dirty things said to me, I have had men grab my bum and touch in ways that could be considered inappropriate whilst out socializing and while it can be uncomfortable sometimes I would never go shopping anyone to the Gardai for it.

    There's nothing to be gained by ruining a man's life over a dirty text or a pinch on the bum imo.


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    #96
    s7ryf3925pivug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I beg to differ - it is witch hunt when there's a different man every other day being accused and some of the accusations are about such minor things as texts.

    Liam Neeson mentioned a DJ who put his hand on a friend's back to comfort while she was telling a difficult and tragic story on his station and was later done for sexual assault because of it.

    How is that not a witch hunt?

    Because he wasn't done for sexual assault - no arrest in the news. He was fired because of multiple complaints about multiple incidents. You've given a biased retelling of his friend's biased retelling of his own version of events. The details of the complaints have not been made public.

    No arrests then? No single instance of someone being labelled for just trying to kiss someone?


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    #97
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Cocobolo55 wrote: »
    An approach might be obtrusive or it might not be, so what, as an adult it should be expected that you have the capability to tell someone you are not interested in talking to them.

    And yet just about every woman can tell you a story where they rebuffed a man who became aggressive.

    An adult should be able to take being rejected without calling someone a bitch. An adult should be aware enough to know that someone reading or listening to music probably doesn't want to be chatted up, or should at least be able to spot the signs that they are bothering someone.


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    #98
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I feel I should point out here, before anyone accuses me of being anti women or pro sexual assault etc, that I am a woman and that I have had dirty things said to me, I have had men grab my bum and touch in ways that could be considered inappropriate whilst out socializing and while it can be uncomfortable sometimes I would never go shopping anyone to the Gardai for it.

    There's nothing to be gained by ruining a man's life over a dirty text or a pinch on the bum imo.

    But there is a lot to be gained by everyone being very clear on the fact that doing that is not an acceptable way to behave.


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    #99
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    kylith wrote: »
    But there is a lot to be gained by everyone being very clear on the fact that doing that is not an acceptable way to behave.

    I never said it was and I think we're all quite clear on that. I said it's not worth ruining a man's life over.


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    #100
    Cocobolo55
    Site Banned Posts: 5 ✭Cocobolo55


    kylith wrote: »
    And yet just about every woman can tell you a story where they rebuffed a man who became aggressive.

    An adult should be able to take being rejected without calling someone a bitch. An adult should be aware enough to know that someone reading or listening to music probably doesn't want to be chatted up, or should at least be able to spot the signs that they are bothering someone.

    I agree wholeheartedly, thats why I always say people have the right to approach, but the person being approached has the right to reject the approach.

    If you had a million euro cheque to give to a stranger at random would you avoid doing it in case you were bothering them?

    Would you avoid saying hello to your neighbour in case you were bothering them?


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    #101
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Brady Shapely Pinball wrote: »
    Because he wasn't done for sexual assault - no arrest in the news. He was fired because of multiple complaints about multiple incidents. You've given a biased retelling of his friend's biased retelling of his own version of events. The details of the complaints have not been made public.

    No arrests then? No single instance of someone being labelled for just trying to kiss someone?

    The DJ in question lost his job for comforting his friend. I have no reason doubt LN on this so I am taking it as truth.

    How can you possibly tell me that was right?


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    #102
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    The DJ in question lost his job for comforting his friend. I have no reason doubt LN on this so I am taking it as truth.

    How can you possibly tell me that was right?

    But it doesn't appear to be the truth.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/garrison-keillor-axed-for-multiple-allegations-of-misconduct-mpr-exec-says


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    #103
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    A brush against you, a simple touch, a dirty comment or text -these are not in my opinion enough to make a man into a sexual deviant or to ruin his career and life over.

    Sounds very dramatic.
    It's not "making a man into a sexual deviant" if you are given a warning, and if you persist you suffer professional consequences up to and including losing your job. None of these things are acceptable in the workplace. It's harassment.


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    #104
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    strandroad wrote: »
    Sounds very dramatic.
    It's not "making a man into a sexual deviant" if you are given a warning, and if you persist you suffer professional consequences up to and including losing your job. None of these things are acceptable in the workplace. It's harassment.

    Of course that's harassment, I never once said otherwise.

    My original point on this thread was more to do with the fact that there now seems to be a desire to make every and any man in any way associated with Hollywood in some kind of deviant and I simply refuse to believe that every man in the film industry is so inclined.

    To me it just smacks of a witch hunt and it belittles and mocks genuine cases of sexual assault.


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    #105
    s7ryf3925pivug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Of course that's harassment, I never once said otherwise.

    My original point on this thread was more to do with the fact that there now seems to be a desire to make every and any man in any way associated with Hollywood in some kind of deviant and I simply refuse to believe that every man in the film industry is so inclined.

    To me it just smacks of a witch hunt and it belittles and mocks genuine cases of sexual assault.
    -but you have no examples of this.


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    #106
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    My original point on this thread was more to do with the fact that there now seems to be a desire to make every and any man in any way associated with Hollywood in some kind of deviant and I simply refuse to believe that every man in the film industry is so inclined.

    Seriously? There are probably tens of thousands of film industry men in the US alone, and we have heard about a few dozen at most. Hardly every and any.


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    #107
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Cocobolo55 wrote: »
    If you had a million euro cheque to give to a stranger at random would you avoid doing it in case you were bothering them?
    I would say 'Excuse me' and if they ignored me I would leave them alone.
    Cocobolo55 wrote: »
    Would you avoid saying hello to your neighbour in case you were bothering them?

    No, but my neighbour isn't a random stranger. I certainly wouldn't try to hold a conversation with them if it was plainly obvious that they didn't want to.

    But I really don't see what any of that has to do with trying to force a random stranger to pay attention to you because you have decided that you want them to. Do you think you are worth a million euro? Do you see every stranger as no different to someone you have lived next door to for decades? Because that's the equivalence you're suggesting with your ridiculous 'would you's.


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    #108
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    lots of people wrote:
    obtrusive
    You Keep Using That Word. I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means


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    #109
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sonnenbrille50 wrote: »
    How do you know the individual would not find "Excuse me" to be obtrusive?

    The point is that regardless of the way you approach someone, you might be making them uncomfortable or afraid, and therefore you should not do so. That person, for whatever reason, might not want the attention, so you shouldn't ever check to see if she's available. Being polite or non-threatening doesn't matter... because you don't know that she might receive a negative experience with you trying to talk to her.

    Approaching a woman should only ever be done through acceptable methods, and approved locations/situations. Admittedly there's no agreed list of methods/situations/locations that are acceptable, but men should just know when it's right!

    So... in other words... stop approaching women. Women will now approach you if they're interested.

    I]Although I think someone should tell women (in general), that they're now the ones to initiate contact and establish any interest. [/I


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    #110
    Barncom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11 ✭Barncom


    kylith wrote: »
    I would say 'Excuse me' and if they ignored me I would leave them alone.



    No, but my neighbour isn't a random stranger. I certainly wouldn't try to hold a conversation with them if it was plainly obvious that they didn't want to.

    But I really don't see what any of that has to do with trying to force a random stranger to pay attention to you because you have decided that you want them to. Do you think you are worth a million euro? Do you see every stranger as no different to someone you have lived next door to for decades? Because that's the equivalence you're suggesting with your ridiculous 'would you's.

    How do you the individual would not find "Excuse me" to be obtrusive?

    The argument being made is that you shouldn't approach someone you don't know because it might be obrusive. Likewise then you shouldn't say hello to a neighbour or ask a colleague how their weekend was as you don't know if that is obtrusive or not to the recipient.

    Approaching someone during the day doesn't have to be such a melodrama, you approach, deliver an opener, chat for a few seconds, gauge if they are open to further conversation or flirting, gauge if you want to continue to converse or flirt, if not, make your excuses, wish them a good day and leave. It's not a big deal, welcome to humanity and socialising


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    #111
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    I get the distinct impression that quite a few boardsies actually lack pretty basic social skills.


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    #112
    s7ryf3925pivug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    I get the distinct impression that quite a few boardsies actually lack pretty basic social skills.
    Doesn't take skills, just basic courtesy.


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    #113
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    This is actually a very good opinion piece on the whole controversy and I agree with a lot of it especially the points about rewriting offensive books, boycotting movies or exhibitions and so on.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/14/french-feminists-catherine-deneuve-metoo-letter-sexual-harassment


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    #114
    Stonedpilot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭Stonedpilot


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Some women feel uncomfortable by a man simply looking at them.

    Some do or say they do. Others crave and love the attention. Love being admired (why you think instagram and snapchat have hundreds of millions of sexy selfies by women?).

    Attitudes differ.


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    #115
    NI24
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭NI24


    I find it highly amusing that Catherine Deneuve is signing her name to a piece that starts off with "While rape is a crime..." considering that she has routinely defended a convicted rapist ("he's suffered enough", she says).  But I guess he doesn't count because he bolstered her career.

    As for the petition itself, it's over two months old and went over like a lead balloon in France.  Many accused the supporters of it of being a wealthy class who doesn't want to mess with the status quo (in France).  Attitudes like hers are increasingly rare among young French and it frightens many French to think men may be held accountable for their poor behavior.


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    #116
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    NI24 wrote: »
    I find it highly amusing that Catherine Deneuve is signing her name to a piece that starts off with "While rape is a crime..." considering that she has routinely defended a convicted rapist ("he's suffered enough", she says).  But I guess he doesn't count because he bolstered her career.

    As for the petition itself, it's over two months old and went over like a lead balloon in France.  Many accused the supporters of it of being a wealthy class who doesn't want to mess with the status quo (in France).  Attitudes like hers are increasingly rare among young French and it frightens many French to think men may be held accountable for their poor behavior.

    Two months old? What? The open letter referred to in the OP was published in Le Monde last week. By all accounts opinion is very much divided on it in France. Where did you get the lead balloon bit from?


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    #117
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    NI24 wrote: »
    Attitudes like hers are increasingly rare among young French and it frightens many French to think men may be held accountable for their poor behavior.
    Yes and no. As the article linked above by Meeeeh notes French feminism is different to the anglosphere version. It's far more "old style" feminism minus the American college campus gender war BS. That's a recent import and in the minority. Plus as the article also notes the French as a culture love a good rant, particularly a controversial one, so they can have a good rant back. As a culture they would be far less "politically correct" compared to some.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #118
    NI24
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭NI24


    Wombatman wrote: »
    Two months old? What? The open letter referred to in the OP was published in Le Monde last week. By all accounts opinion is very much divided on it in France. Where did you get the lead balloon bit from?
    I have family in France who said it happened two months ago.  Maybe they're confusing it with something else?  They said the balancetonporc was a success in spite of it.  They specifically mentioned women in regards to "it". 
    Lead balloon bit is my opinon on it.  I've been reading opinions on it (as best I can, my French is poor) and it's mainly unpopular with people of a certain age and class bracket.


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