Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Dohvolle

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

Cathal Berry met with the COS yesterday to discuss a range of issues affecting the DF. Hopefully the AC was one of those issues as Berry is an open critic of the mismanagement for some time now. The questions are to be put before the minister on Tuesday next. It will be interesting to see if Coveney political bats it away or actually has answers.

I doubt any commitment to anything will be given until after the CoDF has submitted its report, though Primary Radar was already in the program for Government.
There are lots of projects currently in hover until the report is issued.

sparky42

Dohvolle wrote: »

I doubt any commitment to anything will be given until after the CoDF has submitted its report, though Primary Radar was already in the program for Government.
There are lots of projects currently in hover until the report is issued.

Was it in the program? I thought there was only a commitment to look at it if there was money available at some stage maybe…

Flinty997

Dohvolle wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Hmm.
Russia is upset by the recent article, and say we should have nothing to fear...
...

LOL.

I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle from both the Russian and Irish perspective.

Dohvolle

Well if they want to donate 2 squadrons of SU-30 I'll take it as a gesture of goodwill. And some Yak 130s for pilot training too.

Sgt. Bilko 09

Dohvolle wrote: »

I doubt any commitment to anything will be given until after the CoDF has submitted its report, though Primary Radar was already in the program for Government.
There are lots of projects currently in hover until the report is issued.

Yeah very true, I really hope some of the projects actually happen sooner rather than later. Personally, I think the projects and there timescales is more of a “if you keep us government look at the new toys you might get”.

I remember reading that in the Project Ireland 2040 document it is in the pre planning stage if I remember correctly. In the document it seems to more of a wish list or in certain cases things they only get off wish…

Some of the equipment that was actually on that document they’ve already made purchase requests for likes of Military Radios systems.

For the additional funding for the interceptors is that to come from the EU or from our own funding?

Dohvolle

EU won't fund that. If it did the crusties would only say it went against the Nice Treaty, neutraliddy, European Army blah blah

Beta Ray Bill

One thing from all of this makes it crystal clear that the country is effectively broke.

We have Fishermen protesting in the Liffey today. One of the things they are protesting about is non Irish ships routinely entering Irish water to catch fish and there being little or no enforcement on catching/stopping these vessels. The Navy has, on a number of occasions in the last 24 months been unable to crew ships. (This is insane)

We've subcontracted out our Air defense to the to the UK, because we are effectively unable to do it ourselves.

Military spending is the first thing to see cuts when expenditure is very tight or when a country is in financial trouble.


The other thing is that, Ireland is notorious for nepotism, and the last thing we need is a bunch of millionaires kids flying around in expensive war planes.
Think RTÉ, but on steroids (Russian Steroids.... the good ones like).
People like Eoghan Murphy, Lottie Ryan and Shane Ross would make up the bulk of the pilots as their parents would have had so much wealth and political sway.
And I myself think this is the largest single contributing factor to why we don't have an Airforce.

There are so many financial and socio-economic issues to sort out first before we can invest in something like this.

sparky42

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

One thing from all of this makes it crystal clear that the country is effectively broke.

We have Fishermen protesting in the Liffey today. One of the things they are protesting about is non Irish ships routinely entering Irish water to catch fish and there being little or no enforcement on catching/stopping these vessels. The Navy has, on a number of occasions in the last 24 months been unable to crew ships. (This is insane)

We've subcontracted out our Air defense to the to the UK, because we are effectively unable to do it ourselves.

Military spending is the first thing to see cuts when expenditure is very tight or when a country is in financial trouble.


The other thing is that, Ireland is notorious for nepotism, and the last thing we need is a bunch of millionaires kids flying around in expensive war planes.
Think RTÉ, but on steroids (Russian Steroids.... the good ones like).
People like Eoghan Murphy, Lottie Ryan and Shane Ross would make up the bulk of the pilots as their parents would have had so much wealth and political sway.
And I myself think this is the largest single contributing factor to why we don't have an Airforce.

There are so many financial and socio-economic issues to sort out first before we can invest in something like this.

What?

sparky42

Dohvolle wrote: »

EU won't fund that. If it did the crusties would only say it went against the Nice Treaty, neutraliddy, European Army blah blah

The EU is still facing resistance from multiple MEP groups and outside groups over the question of developing more military capabilities, besides which, even if they were I doubt we’d get much if we were still trying to keep our spending so low.

Beta Ray Bill

sparky42 wrote: »

What?

Apologies
I was referring to the Times article where it states we'd be talking about €166m P/A for 40 Grippens

I just think its gas that we even have notions of that when we can't even reliably crew a ship!

Larbre34

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Apologies
I was referring to the Times article where it states we'd be talking about €166m P/A for 40 Grippens

I just think its gas that we even have notions of that when we can't even reliably crew a ship!

Manpower retention is an acknowledged problem that the Government already must face up to, though no doubt the CoDF will highlight it again.

But that doesn't obviate the obligation to face up to current and future challenges around the security environment and the role of the DF.

And its two ships we can't properly crew, but seven are active. Just for clarity.

Dohvolle

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

One thing from all of this makes it crystal clear that the country is effectively broke.

We have Fishermen protesting in the Liffey today. One of the things they are protesting about is non Irish ships routinely entering Irish water to catch fish and there being little or no enforcement on catching/stopping these vessels. The Navy has, on a number of occasions in the last 24 months been unable to crew ships. (This is insane)

We've subcontracted out our Air defense to the to the UK, because we are effectively unable to do it ourselves.

Military spending is the first thing to see cuts when expenditure is very tight or when a country is in financial trouble.


The other thing is that, Ireland is notorious for nepotism, and the last thing we need is a bunch of millionaires kids flying around in expensive war planes.
Think RTÉ, but on steroids (Russian Steroids.... the good ones like).
People like Eoghan Murphy, Lottie Ryan and Shane Ross would make up the bulk of the pilots as their parents would have had so much wealth and political sway.
And I myself think this is the largest single contributing factor to why we don't have an Airforce.

There are so many financial and socio-economic issues to sort out first before we can invest in something like this.

Why do you think it would be millionaires sons & daughters who get to fly the jets? What country do you think we live in? Saudi Arabia?
The People who fly the Air Corps (it does exist, it's just not called an air force yet) aircraft come from the same background as the men and women who lead our soldiers overseas in places like Syria or Lebanon,(indeed Air Corps and Naval officers have also led army units overseas) and who command our ships which are still patrolling our seas, even while the fishermen are complaining they are under too much scrutiny.
It's not just fishery protection you know? That's a role they do for another government agency, the SFPA.
I can tell you one thing, very few of any are millionaires sons or daughters. All worked hard to get where they are. I'm proud to call many of them friends. They come from all walks of life.

Flinty997

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Apologies
I was referring to the Times article where it states we'd be talking about €166m P/A for 40 Grippens

I just think its gas that we even have notions of that when we can't even reliably crew a ship!

Of course then there are the submarines...

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40278005.html

sparky42

Flinty997 wrote: »

Of course then there are the submarines...

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40278005.html

It was outside our territorial waters, it had every right to be there, though it must have had an issue. Also I love the comment “it most likely didn’t have nukes on board”, ah yeah it did.

Beta Ray Bill

Larbre34 wrote: »

Manpower retention is an acknowledged problem that the Government already must face up to, though no doubt the CoDF will highlight it again.

But that doesn't obviate the obligation to face up to current and future challenges around the security environment and the role of the DF.

And its two ships we can't properly crew, but seven are active. Just for clarity.

That's over 20% of the fleet though, statistically speaking.

I fully agree with you though that this issue around man power will have to be fixed, because it cannot continue like this.
I'd be an advocate of fully fund it OR Scrap it completely and merge it's assets with the Garda.

If there was money available, it would be fixed.
Same as the Air Defense issue.

Beta Ray Bill

Dohvolle wrote: »

Why do you think it would be millionaires sons & daughters who get to fly the jets? What country do you think we live in? Saudi Arabia?
The People who fly the Air Corps (it does exist, it's just not called an air force yet) aircraft come from the same background as the men and women who lead our soldiers overseas in places like Syria or Lebanon,(indeed Air Corps and Naval officers have also led army units overseas) and who command our ships which are still patrolling our seas, even while the fishermen are complaining they are under too much scrutiny.
It's not just fishery protection you know? That's a role they do for another government agency, the SFPA.
I can tell you one thing, very few of any are millionaires sons or daughters. All worked hard to get where they are. I'm proud to call many of them friends. They come from all walks of life.

I am not disputing the effort put into the defense forces in any way shape or form by any of its members.
We all know they work extremely hard, and are very under paid for the work they do.

My point is, when you put something shiny (like the opportunity to fly fighter planes for living) in front of the children of the political class, money and political sway will take over in a place like Ireland.
Ireland has ALWAYS been a place where it's who you know and not what you know.

sparky42

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

That's over 20% of the fleet though, statistically speaking.

I fully agree with you though that this issue around man power will have to be fixed, because it cannot continue like this.
I'd be an advocate of fully fund it OR Scrap it completely and merge it's assets with the Garda.

If there was money available, it would be fixed.
Same as the Air Defense issue.

You do get that we aren’t unique with this issue? The RN have had Destroyers and Frigates laid up for years, the Dutch had their main replenishment ship laid up this year, the Australians had frigates laid up as well. Manpower shortages in military forces particularly in the navies isn’t unique. Our issue isn’t just manpower, it’s also the fact that for both the AC and NS their establishment figures are too low for what they have, putting more pressure on those in service.

sparky42

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I am not disputing the effort put into the defense forces in any way shape or form by any of its members.
We all know they work extremely hard, and are very under paid for the work they do.

My point is, when you put something shiny (like the opportunity to fly fighter planes for living) in front of the children of the political class, money and political sway will take over in a place like Ireland.
Ireland has ALWAYS been a place where it's who you know and not what you know.

The idea that having jets is suddenly going to make those type of people join up is laughable. Was the AC over run with them back when they had the vampires? Of course not.

Dohvolle

sparky42 wrote: »

It was outside our territorial waters, it had every right to be there, though it must have had an issue. Also I love the comment “it most likely didn’t have nukes on board”, ah yeah it did.

It was in our EEZ, where our fishermen are currently protesting for the right to fish. UNCLOS has confirmed this area of ocean is ours.

sparky42

Dohvolle wrote: »

It was in our EEZ, where our fishermen are currently protesting for the right to fish. UNCLOS has confirmed this area of ocean is ours.

They can move through our EEZ, there’s no legal prohibition against that even with UNCLOS, it’s no different than the Russian carrier that had that oil leak years ago. As long as they were outside the 12 mile limit they could stay there as long as they wanted to, though given she most likely had engineering issues she clearly wouldn’t.

Larbre34

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

That's over 20% of the fleet though, statistically speaking.

I fully agree with you though that this issue around man power will have to be fixed, because it cannot continue like this.
I'd be an advocate of fully fund it OR Scrap it completely and merge it's assets with the Garda.

If there was money available, it would be fixed.
Same as the Air Defense issue.

That's not the case.

There was buckets of money between the late 90s and 2008. Even right now Ireland can borrow as much as it likes at next to zero cost for stimulus and investment. This is about political will, and public agitation, which is beginning to ramp up as we are seeing.

The suggest to merge with An GS is nonsense, the skill set and overall mission couldn't be more different. While our naval service is very much a navy with a small 'n', the professionalism of the officers and sailors and recent modernisation isn't in doubt. There might be some merit to a unified air and sea defence command, something similar to the US Coast Guard model, but not in the manner you suggest.

Larbre34

sparky42 wrote: »

The idea that having jets is suddenly going to make those type of people join up is laughable. Was the AC over run with them back when they had the vampires? Of course not.

I think he thinks that just because the Blue Max was filmed at Baldonnell that all the AC Officers must be blue blooded aristos!!

sparky42

Dohvolle wrote: »

It was in our EEZ, where our fishermen are currently protesting for the right to fish. UNCLOS has confirmed this area of ocean is ours.

The UNCLOS also gives them the right of Innocent Passage even through the territorial waters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_passage

roadmaster

It might be no harm if the DFA asked the Russian ambassador to get his colleagues to turn on there transponders when they enter Irish controlled air space

Larbre34

roadmaster wrote: »

It might be no harm if the DFA asked the Russian ambassador to get his colleagues to turn on there transponders when they enter Irish controlled air space

Thought exactly that.

That lad Filatov is quite the spoofer at the best of times.

roadmaster

Larbre34 wrote: »

Thought exactly that.

That lad Filatov is quite the spoofer at the best of times.

He has being here to long starting to act like our TDs

jonnybigwallet

Larbre34 wrote: »

Thought exactly that.

That lad Filatov is quite the spoofer at the best of times.

And the bloke they have in London is even worse!

saabsaab

roadmaster wrote: »

It might be no harm if the DFA asked the Russian ambassador to get his colleagues to turn on there transponders when they enter Irish controlled air space

and a strongly worded letter in the Times.

Larbre34

saabsaab wrote: »

and a strongly worded letter in the Times.

Don't think we need to amplify his already megaphone diplomacy.

Sgt. Bilko 09

I see HMS Defender is giving the Russians a taste of there own medicine

https://youtu.be/MLPYAKL-f2M