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Idol worship

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    #32
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    Dead people are generated and prayed to with the RCC please don't try telling me they are not.
    The Hail Mary is one such example.

    Why the need to pray to Mary ? Why not just pray to God directly!

    Mary is the mother of God. She’s with him in heaven. In the Hail Mary we are asking her to pray for us.
    Should we pretend that Mary never existed? Why?


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    #33
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Mary is the mother of God. She’s with him in heaven. In the Hail Mary we are asking her to pray for us.
    Should we pretend that Mary never existed? Why?

    She was never the mother of God. God is without begining or end.
    She was mother of His human form. He existed before He created her and gave her life.
    She's in heaven as is every other person who has known Jesus as their Saviour. He refers to Him as such in the magnificat
    He gave her no right to impose her will on Him on earth so why do you think He needs her to do so in His glorified state?
    As for asking her to pray for us. Even Jesus says the day was coming when we would just ask the Father. Why should we pray to a saved being asking him/her to pray to the Father for us? Jesus said that we would ask the Father in His Name. No mention of Mary in the Bible as one who we should ask to pray for us.


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    #34
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    But why not just pray to God?

    Catholics often pray just to God.
    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    What's do special about all these exalted beings that we pray to them.

    If she is good enough for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, she's good enough for me. All nations shall call her blessed, and there is nothing wrong with asking anyone to pray for you.
    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    Why is Mary co- Mediatrix and queen of heaven?
    There is only one mediator according to the bible and it isn't a shared position and the only mention in the bible of the queen of heaven was astheroth, the pagan Goddess!

    Neither of these are dogmas of faith in Catholicism for a start, and revelation Revelation 12:1-2 refers to Mary. As for the pagan godness astheroth, by that logic if you follow it through, baal then must be a god according to you.

    Where's your prejudice and sectarianism towards Catholics really coming from do you think ?
    I invite you to Pray to Jesus and ask him that, and about his Mother, and find out.


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    #35
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    She was never the mother of God. God is without begining or end.
    She was mother of His human form. He existed before He created her and gave her life.
    She's in heaven as is every other person who has known Jesus as their Saviour. He refers to Him as such in the magnificat
    He gave her no right to impose her will on Him on earth so why do you think He needs her to do so in His glorified state?
    As for asking her to pray for us. Even Jesus says the day was coming when we would just ask the Father. Why should we pray to a saved being asking him/her to pray to the Father for us? Jesus said that we would ask the Father in His Name. No mention of Mary in the Bible as one who we should ask to pray for us.

    You’re not a Catholic. I’m not criticizing your Christian belief , so why do you feel the need to critize mine? Is a Catholic or anyone else preventing you from following your own belief system ?
    If not then you need to pray to God and ask him to open your heart and let you see that you must allow others to believe differently to you.


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    #36
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Catholics often pray just to God.



    If she is good enough for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, she's good enough for me. All nations shall call her blessed, and there is nothing wrong with asking anyone to pray for you.



    Neither of these are dogmas of faith in Catholicism for a start, and revelation Revelation 12:1-2 refers to Mary. As for the pagan godness astheroth, by that logic if you follow it through, baal then must be a god according to you.

    Where's your prejudice and sectarianism towards Catholics really coming from do you think ?
    I invite you to Pray to Jesus and ask him that, and about his Mother, and find out.

    Revelation is not Mary though the RCC like to think it is.
    I only said the sole reference to the queen of heaven was of ashteroth.
    Why did the RCC use the same idea.?
    I may not be RC now but was for a lot of my life, so know more than you think I know:)
    And why no response to the use of the title co redemptrix when there is only One who shed His blood to redeem mankind.?


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    #37
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    Revelation is not Mary though the RCC like to think it is.
    I only said the sole reference to the queen of heaven was of ashteroth.
    Why did the RCC use the same idea.?
    I may not be RC now but was for a lot of my life, so know more than you think I know:)
    And why no response to the use of the title co redemptrix when there is only One who shed His blood to redeem mankind.?

    But by your false claims and remarks you've demonstrated you don't know much about Catholicism, then or now. You actually mentioned mediatrix, which was already addressed, and co-redemptrix does not mean what you said at all, nor is it a doctrine of Catholicism either.

    I've no issue with you practicing whatever version of Christianity that suits you, that's how free will works, but spreading ignorant false claims and sectarianism about other Christians is not Christianity, or loving your neighbour as yourself.

    So, if you're serious about actual Christianity, I invite you again to Pray to Jesus and ask him why you are doing this, and also ask him about his Mother.


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    #38
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    But by your false claims and remarks you've demonstrated you don't know much about Catholicism, then or now. You actually mentioned mediatrix, which was already addressed, and co-redemptrix does not mean what you said at all, nor is it a doctrine of Catholicism either.

    I've no issue with you practicing whatever version of Christianity that suits you, that's how free will works, but spreading ignorant false claims and sectarianism about other Christians is not Christianity, or loving your neighbour as yourself.

    So, if you're serious about actual Christianity, I invite you again to Pray to Jesus and ask him why you are doing this, and also ask him about his Mother.

    I'm sure if Mary was so important to the early church she would have had a role in it and would be mentioned in Acts. She's not which is significant. She had a role to carry and rear Jesus but it ends there.
    Giving her titles and places in heaven that her not hers to have is questionable.

    Why was she given the title Queen of Heaven?


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    #39
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    I'm sure if Mary was so important to the early church she would have had a role in it and would be mentioned in Acts. She's not which is significant. She had a role to carry and rear Jesus but it ends there.
    Giving her titles and places in heaven that her not hers to have is questionable.

    Why was she given the title Queen of Heaven?

    Who is the Queen of Heaven if not the Mother of God?
    You’re displaying an almost sinister animosity and naked hostility towards the Mother of Our Lord.
    I doubt if any branch of Christianity encourages this but maybe I’m wrong....


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    #40
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Who is the Queen of Heaven if not the Mother of God?
    You’re displaying an almost sinister animosity and naked hostility towards the Mother of Our Lord.
    I doubt if any branch of Christianity encourages this but maybe I’m wrong....
    What does the title "queen of heaven" actually refer to?
    As I said , the bible only uses the term once and its not good.
    And she's Not the mother of God.God wasn't born so what is she referred to as such?
    No hostility..I'm just asking questions and pointing out disparity between your position and what the Bible says.


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    #41
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    What does the title "queen of heaven" actually refer to?
    As I said , the bible only uses the term once and its not good.
    And she's Not the mother of God.God wasn't born so what is she referred to as such?
    No hostility..I'm just asking questions and pointing out disparity between your position and what the Bible says.

    Queen of Heaven . It’s a term used by Catholics to refer to Our Lady, Mary the Mother of God. It’s a Catholic term in common usage.
    I’m struggling to understand why you seem to find it so distasteful and challenging.
    I respect that you are approaching Christianity from a different perspective but your approach is combative and challenging and you don’t seem to offer Catholics on this thread the same respect.
    I believe in God The Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.
    I take it that you don’t celebrate Christmas at all?


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    #42
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    I'm sure if Mary was so important to the early church she would have had a role in it and would be mentioned in Acts. She's not which is significant. She had a role to carry and rear Jesus but it ends there.

    Plenty of people who had important parts to play in the Gospels and/or early Church are not mentioned in the book of acts, and some of those mentioned in the book of acts are not mentioned in the Gospels, so this doesn't have any bearing.
    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    Giving her titles and places in heaven that her not hers to have is questionable.
    Why was she given the title Queen of Heaven?

    The Gospels are clear that all nations shall call her blessed, but Catholicism does not claim she is divine, or in any way as important as the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. She has been given many honorary titles including that one and, none of them are divine, nor designed to cause any offence unless you seek to be.


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    #43
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    What does the title "queen of heaven" actually refer to?
    As I said , the bible only uses the term once and its not good.
    And she's Not the mother of God.God wasn't born so what is she referred to as such?
    No hostility..I'm just asking questions and pointing out disparity between your position and what the Bible says.

    The only disparity is invented straw manning.

    Likewise, Pagan gods in scripture were also given the title of god by pagans, this does not mean the title of God is not good, so this argument holds no logic.

    She is not God's mother in the sense that she is older than God (including God the son, Jesus) or the source of her Son’s divinity. We say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried Jesus (God) her womb and gave birth to God made man — Jesus Christ.

    Elizabeth , when filled with the holy spirit, knew Mary was the mother of the Lord.

    "41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" - Luke 1:41-44

    Again, I invite you to pray to Jesus, and ask him for further understanding about his Mother.


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    #44
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    Why would you need to pray to anyone else but God?

    The actual reality as is explained very very clearly in the huge volume of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not that you pray to eg mary and the saints but ask them to pray for you

    It gets distorted and I agree totally with you.


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    #45
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    It was a typo..venerated not generated.

    So If it's not a requirement, why do it.
    And it's definitely a case of praying directly to her. I can rewrite it for you if you'd like as you don't seem to know what it says. "Hail Mary, full of grace.....etc""




    But then "Holy Mary Mother of God , pray fr us sinners now and at the hour of our death." So asking her to pray. s


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    #46
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    What does the title "queen of heaven" actually refer to?
    As I said , the bible only uses the term once and its not good.
    And she's Not the mother of God.God wasn't born so what is she referred to as such?
    No hostility..I'm just asking questions and pointing out disparity between your position and what the Bible says.

    What are your thoughts re the Assumption of Mary into heaven?

    Also of the Orthodox "Theotokos" meaning "God-bearer"


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