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Idol worship

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  • 10-01-2018 5:47pm
    #1
    beefburrito
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭


    Is it right according to the 10 commandments to worship idols and pray to them for help ?

    Is the Catholic teaching more in line with paganism rather than Christianity ?

    The Anglican church seem to worship idols less,or am I wrong ?


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    #2
    Mancomb Seepgood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Mancomb Seepgood


    beefburrito wrote: »
    Is it right according to the 10 commandments to worship idols and pray to them for help ?

    Is the Catholic teaching more in line with paganism rather than Christianity ?

    The Anglican church seem to worship idols less,or am I wrong ?

    The premise of this question is incorrect.Catholics might have statues in their churches but that doesn't mean that they worship them.Nor do members of other Christian churches that use statues,icons or other forms of religious art.


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    #3
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,769 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »
    The premise of this question is incorrect.Catholics might have statues in their churches but that doesn't mean that they worship them.Nor do members of other Christian churches that use statues,icons or other forms of religious art.

    I guess it depends on what is meant by worship...
    Merriam Webster:
    1. to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
    2. to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

    As far as I recall from years ago, there were lots of older people and neighbours that had a particular attachment/devotion to various saints. It was believed the saints had the power to grant all kinds of requests as long as the person said special prayers and made pledges/offerings - what about the one for Lost Causes...:rolleyes:
    On RTE not too long ago, Tommy Paddy O'Gorman was talking to people in a church in the Liberties in Dublin about requests to saints - it seems it is still very common. Each to their own...


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    #4
    Mancomb Seepgood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Mancomb Seepgood


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    I guess it depends on what is meant by worship...
    Merriam Webster:
    1. to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
    2. to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

    As far as I recall from years ago, there were lots of older people and neighbours that had a particular attachment/devotion to various saints. It was believed the saints had the power to grant all kinds of requests as long as the person said special prayers and made pledges/offerings - what about the one for Lost Causes...:rolleyes:
    On RTE not too long ago, Tommy O'Gorman was talking to people in a church in the Liberties in Dublin about requests to saints - it seems it is still very common. Each to their own...

    Catholics differentiate between worship and veneration though.The OP was referring to idol worship,not saints.


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    #5
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »
    Catholics differentiate between worship and veneration though.The OP was referring to idol worship,not saints.

    Ok, I'll bite...what's the difference?


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    #6
    Mancomb Seepgood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Mancomb Seepgood


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    Ok, I'll bite...what's the difference?

    I was raised a Catholic but am no longer one,so I'm probably not going to give you the best explanation!No doubt a Catholic poster can explain better.

    There is a pretty comprehensive tract on the matter here:

    https://www.catholic.com/tract/saint-worship


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    #7
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Pagans, at least some, had the virtue of being intelligent and could likely use the search function as this topic has consistantly rehashed for years here. As a fresh approach one can place the injunction in an originalist setting for those of jurisprudiential mindset. As per Bauer's Ancient World, some items where deemed to be powerful in of themselves. An example being Egyptian temple hieroglyphics which deemed sources of power in themselves. Hence an idol, as per golden calf would be seen as an intrinsic power in of itself. The actual use of images/icons in Jewish, Orthodox, Catholic and mainstream Protestant are instead redirect pointers to the Divine.


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    #8
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Manach wrote: »
    Pagans, at least some, had the virtue of being intelligent and could likely use the search function as this topic has consistantly rehashed for years here. As a fresh approach one can place the injunction in an originalist setting for those of jurisprudiential mindset. As per Bauer's Ancient World, some items where deemed to be powerful in of themselves. An example being Egyptian temple hieroglyphics which deemed sources of power in themselves. Hence an idol, as per golden calf would be seen as an intrinsic power in of itself. The actual use of images/icons in Jewish, Orthodox, Catholic and mainstream Protestant are instead redirect pointers to the Divine.

    And yet people attribute powers directly to such things as Padre Pios glove and relics of Fr Charles in Mount Argus.


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    #9
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    And yet people attribute powers directly to such things as Padre Pios glove and relics of Fr Charles in Mount Argus.


    They go on tour with some of those things and people flock to them.
    The gable end of a church in knock is apparently a great "source of power".

    The church is very precious about statues,pictures and relics . AFAIK there are even rules about disposing of them?


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    #10
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,070 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    kneemos wrote: »
    They go on tour with some of those things and people flock to them.
    The gable end of a church in knock is apparently a great "source of power".

    The church is very precious about statues,pictures and relics . AFAIK there are even rules about disposing of them?
    Yes, there are.

    But none of this amounts to "worship". We are precious about lots of things, and we have rules about disposing of lots of things; that doesn't mean we "worship" them.


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    #11
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    It's interesting that the RCC has no problem with people bowing down before statues, icons etc yet when John did the same towards an Angel ( which is higher on the scale of beings), he is rebuked and told not to do it.


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    #12
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,070 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    It's interesting that the RCC has no problem with people bowing down before statues, icons etc yet when John did the same towards an Angel ( which is higher on the scale of beings), he is rebuked and told not to do it.
    In each case, what matters is not the bow, but what the bow means.


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    #13
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Yes, there are.

    But none of this amounts to "worship". We are precious about lots of things, and we have rules about disposing of lots of things; that doesn't mean we "worship" them.


    Why can't we throw them in a skip then?


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    #14
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,070 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    kneemos wrote: »
    Why can't we throw them in a skip then?
    You're definition of "worship" is "regard as something which should not be disposed of in a skip"?


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    #15
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You're definition of "worship" is "regard as something which should not be disposed of in a skip"?


    What I think about anything has no bearing on the matter.

    Simply asking the question,maybe you don't know?
    They're obviously more than merely symbols?


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    #16
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,070 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    But there's a huge gap between "not a mere symbol" and "object of worship".

    After all, we don't dispose of cadavers by dumping them in a skip. Do you conclude from that that we worship human cadavers? No, didn't think so.

    If you're going to argue that, because Catholics don't dispose of relics by throwing them in a skip, therefore Catholics worship relics, you're going to have to fill in the missing steps in the argument. I can't really respond to an argument that you won't set out.

    If you're arguing that Catholics worship relics based on other reasons, you need to set out those other reasons.

    After all, an undeniable fact is the Catholics themselves deny that they worship relics. Since they presumably have better informotion about their own beliefs, attitudes, etc than you do, that's not a denial that we can simply dismiss without some clearly articulate reasons for dismissing it.

    Over to you!


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    #17
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    But there's a huge gap between "not a mere symbol" and "object of worship".

    After all, we don't dispose of cadavers by dumping them in a skip. Do you conclude from that that we worship human cadavers? No, didn't think so.

    If you're going to argue that, because Catholics don't dispose of relics by throwing them in a skip, therefore Catholics worship relics, you're going to have to fill in the missing steps in the argument. I can't really respond to an argument that you won't set out.

    If you're arguing that Catholics worship relics based on other reasons, you need to set out those other reasons.

    After all, an undeniable fact is the Catholics themselves deny that they worship relics. Since they presumably have better informotion about their own beliefs, attitudes, etc than you do, that's not a denial that we can simply dismiss without some clearly articulate reasons for dismissing it.

    Over to you!


    No idea what dead bodies are about.

    However perhaps there's an explanation why a piece of cloth from Mother Theresa's clothing goes on tour for veneration ?https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwiKtvyE-9nYAhXKBsAKHbvLBR4QFjABegQIExAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholicireland.net%2Fsaint-theresa-relic-begins-national-tour-cathedrals-ireland%2F&usg=AOvVaw0r_lr1c99derguBNgg9OM1


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    #18
    NaFirinne
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭NaFirinne


    I submit to God, the Holy Spirit and to His Son Jesus Christ.

    I wouldn't bow down. worship or submit to anything else.


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    #19
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    And yet people attribute powers directly to such things as Padre Pios glove and relics of Fr Charles in Mount Argus.
    On that point, see Acts 19:11-12...

    God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

    We Catholics don't make stuff up!


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    #20
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    kelly1 wrote: »
    On that point, see Acts 19:11-12...

    God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

    We Catholics don't make stuff up!

    I don't see anything in Acts which says put the handkerchief on tour and venerate it.

    As for making stuff up. I would have chocked on my tea if I was still drinking it:)


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    #21
    beefburrito
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭beefburrito


    That's the divide between the Sunnis and Shia.

    The Sunnis believe in worshipping Allah and nothing else.

    Doesn't one of the 10 commandments also say not to worship any idols or materialism.

    I ain't religious but I ain't no fool either.

    If one was to be a true believer in God wouldn't they worship God alone and not put up any religious paraphernalia in their place of worship, besides their humble book.

    I'm agnostic but have read a lot about catholism and the Anglican church.

    It seems the Anglican church cleaned up a lot of the distractions and bad habits the Holy See prescribed.

    Some even proclaim the Catholic Church has been corrupted by the qare fella.....


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    #22
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    beefburrito wrote: »
    Some even proclaim the Catholic Church has been corrupted by the qare fella.....
    I think there's some truth in that. Pope Paul VI said the smoke of Satan had entered the Church. I'm pretty sure he was talking about Freemasons

    But it's expected that the RCC would come under attack considering it's the Church founded by Christ.


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    #23
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I think there's some truth in that. Pope Paul VI said the smoke of Satan had entered the Church. I'm pretty sure he was talking about Freemasons

    But it's expected that the RCC would come under attack considering it's the Church founded by Christ.

    I never see Him mentioning that He was founding the RCC with all that goes with it.
    Where in the NT do we see "princes of the church", the ritual, the assertion that the RCC is the one true church?


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    #24
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    beefburrito wrote: »

    Doesn't one of the 10 commandments also say not to worship any idols or materialism.

    I ain't religious but I ain't no fool either.

    If one was to be a true believer in God wouldn't they worship God alone and not put up any religious paraphernalia in their place of worship, besides their humble book.

    Catholics only whorship God, so all those other tired old sectarian and strawman arguments claiming Catholics whorship objects or anything else are false.
    beefburrito wrote: »
    I'm agnostic but have read a lot about catholism and the Anglican church.

    It seems the Anglican church cleaned up a lot of the distractions and bad habits the Holy See prescribed.

    The Anglican church, because of it's veneration of Mary / the Anglican Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham,and praying the rosary, is also falsely accused by some Protestants sects for worshiping Mary. The same false argument also used against Catholics.
    beefburrito wrote: »
    Some even proclaim the Catholic Church has been corrupted by the qare fella.....

    - Well he wouldn't be very intelligent if he tried to corrupt the the wrong Churches now would he ?
    The enemies inside the Church are an ever bigger problem than the enemies outside it.
    - But Christ proclaimed the gates of helll won't prevail against the Church.


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    #25
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Why would you need to pray to anyone else but God?


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    #26
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    Why would you need to pray to anyone else but God?

    Where does Catholicism claim you have to ? It doesn't - as that's another old favourite sectarian false claim / strawman.

    Also to pray doesn't mean to worship, it also means to ask, as in 'pray tell', and asking others to pray for you.


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    #27
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Where does Catholicism claim you have to ? It doesn't - as that's another old favourite sectarian false claim / strawman.

    Also to pray doesn't mean to worship, it also means to ask, as in 'pray tell', and asking others to pray for you.

    Dead people are generated and prayed to with the RCC please don't try telling me they are not.
    The Hail Mary is one such example.

    Why the need to pray to Mary ? Why not just pray to God directly!


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    #28
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    Dead people are generated and prayed to with the RCC please don't try telling me they are not.

    Generated ? . . .prayed to yes, where did anyone claim they were not ? Another false claim / straw man.
    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    The Hail Mary is one such example.
    Why the need to pray to Mary ? Why not just pray to God directly!

    There's no requirement to say the Hail Mary in or pray to anyone other than God in Catholicism, it's optional. And Catholics when praying also always pray to God directly.


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    #29
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Generated ? . . .prayed to yes, where did anyone claim they were not ? Another false claim / straw man.



    There's no requirement to say the Hail Mary in or pray to anyone other than God in Catholicism, it's optional. And Catholics when praying also always pray to God directly.

    It was a typo..venerated not generated.

    So If it's not a requirement, why do it.
    And it's definitely a case of praying directly to her. I can rewrite it for you if you'd like as you don't seem to know what it says. "Hail Mary, full of grace.....etc"

    There are of course the other prayers to the various "saints". Please don't tell me they're not being prayed to!


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    #30
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    It was a typo..venerated not generated.

    If you don't know the difference between worship and veneration, have a look at a dictionary.
    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    So If it's not a requirement, why do it.

    For exactly the same reasons Christians often ask others to pray for them. Why do they do that if it's not a requirement ?
    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    And it's definitely a case of praying directly to her. I can rewrite it for you if you'd like as you don't seem to know what it says. "Hail Mary, full of grace.....etc"

    Another false claim. No one said they don't. The first half of the Hail Mary is quoting the words about her in Scripture, the second part is asking her to pray for us. It would be no harm if you did write it out if you don't know this.
    Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »
    There are of course the other prayers to the various "saints". Please don't tell me they're not being prayed to!

    Another false claim. No one said they don't. What I said was Catholics also always pray directly to God as well.


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    #31
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    If you don't know the difference between worship and veneration, have a look at a dictionary.



    For exactly the same reasons Christians often ask others to pray for them. Why do they do that if it's not a requirement ?



    Another false claim. No one said they don't. The first half of the Hail Mary is quoting the words about her in Scripture, the second part is asking her to pray for us. It would be no harm if you did write it out if you don't know this.



    Another false claim. No one said they don't. What I said was Catholics also always pray directly to God as well.

    But why not just pray to God? What's do special about all these exalted beings that we pray to them.

    Why is Mary co- Mediatrix and queen of heaven?
    There is only one mediator according to the bible and it isn't a shared position and the only mention in the bible of the queen of heaven was astheroth, the pagan Goddess!


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