Idol worship

beefburrito

Is it right according to the 10 commandments to worship idols and pray to them for help ?

Is the Catholic teaching more in line with paganism rather than Christianity ?

The Anglican church seem to worship idols less,or am I wrong ?

Mancomb Seepgood

beefburrito wrote: »

Is it right according to the 10 commandments to worship idols and pray to them for help ?

Is the Catholic teaching more in line with paganism rather than Christianity ?

The Anglican church seem to worship idols less,or am I wrong ?

The premise of this question is incorrect.Catholics might have statues in their churches but that doesn't mean that they worship them.Nor do members of other Christian churches that use statues,icons or other forms of religious art.

mrslancaster

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

The premise of this question is incorrect.Catholics might have statues in their churches but that doesn't mean that they worship them.Nor do members of other Christian churches that use statues,icons or other forms of religious art.

I guess it depends on what is meant by worship...
Merriam Webster:
1. to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2. to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

As far as I recall from years ago, there were lots of older people and neighbours that had a particular attachment/devotion to various saints. It was believed the saints had the power to grant all kinds of requests as long as the person said special prayers and made pledges/offerings - what about the one for Lost Causes...:rolleyes:
On RTE not too long ago, Tommy Paddy O'Gorman was talking to people in a church in the Liberties in Dublin about requests to saints - it seems it is still very common. Each to their own...

Mancomb Seepgood

mrslancaster wrote: »

I guess it depends on what is meant by worship...
Merriam Webster:
1. to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2. to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

As far as I recall from years ago, there were lots of older people and neighbours that had a particular attachment/devotion to various saints. It was believed the saints had the power to grant all kinds of requests as long as the person said special prayers and made pledges/offerings - what about the one for Lost Causes...:rolleyes:
On RTE not too long ago, Tommy O'Gorman was talking to people in a church in the Liberties in Dublin about requests to saints - it seems it is still very common. Each to their own...

Catholics differentiate between worship and veneration though.The OP was referring to idol worship,not saints.

uck51js9zml2yt

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Catholics differentiate between worship and veneration though.The OP was referring to idol worship,not saints.

Ok, I'll bite...what's the difference?

Mancomb Seepgood

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite...what's the difference?

I was raised a Catholic but am no longer one,so I'm probably not going to give you the best explanation!No doubt a Catholic poster can explain better.

There is a pretty comprehensive tract on the matter here:

https://www.catholic.com/tract/saint-worship

Manach

Pagans, at least some, had the virtue of being intelligent and could likely use the search function as this topic has consistantly rehashed for years here. As a fresh approach one can place the injunction in an originalist setting for those of jurisprudiential mindset. As per Bauer's Ancient World, some items where deemed to be powerful in of themselves. An example being Egyptian temple hieroglyphics which deemed sources of power in themselves. Hence an idol, as per golden calf would be seen as an intrinsic power in of itself. The actual use of images/icons in Jewish, Orthodox, Catholic and mainstream Protestant are instead redirect pointers to the Divine.

uck51js9zml2yt

Manach wrote: »

Pagans, at least some, had the virtue of being intelligent and could likely use the search function as this topic has consistantly rehashed for years here. As a fresh approach one can place the injunction in an originalist setting for those of jurisprudiential mindset. As per Bauer's Ancient World, some items where deemed to be powerful in of themselves. An example being Egyptian temple hieroglyphics which deemed sources of power in themselves. Hence an idol, as per golden calf would be seen as an intrinsic power in of itself. The actual use of images/icons in Jewish, Orthodox, Catholic and mainstream Protestant are instead redirect pointers to the Divine.

And yet people attribute powers directly to such things as Padre Pios glove and relics of Fr Charles in Mount Argus.

kneemos

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

And yet people attribute powers directly to such things as Padre Pios glove and relics of Fr Charles in Mount Argus.

They go on tour with some of those things and people flock to them.
The gable end of a church in knock is apparently a great "source of power".

The church is very precious about statues,pictures and relics . AFAIK there are even rules about disposing of them?

Peregrinus

kneemos wrote: »

They go on tour with some of those things and people flock to them.
The gable end of a church in knock is apparently a great "source of power".

The church is very precious about statues,pictures and relics . AFAIK there are even rules about disposing of them?

Yes, there are.

But none of this amounts to "worship". We are precious about lots of things, and we have rules about disposing of lots of things; that doesn't mean we "worship" them.

uck51js9zml2yt

It's interesting that the RCC has no problem with people bowing down before statues, icons etc yet when John did the same towards an Angel ( which is higher on the scale of beings), he is rebuked and told not to do it.

Peregrinus

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

It's interesting that the RCC has no problem with people bowing down before statues, icons etc yet when John did the same towards an Angel ( which is higher on the scale of beings), he is rebuked and told not to do it.

In each case, what matters is not the bow, but what the bow means.

kneemos

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, there are.

But none of this amounts to "worship". We are precious about lots of things, and we have rules about disposing of lots of things; that doesn't mean we "worship" them.

Why can't we throw them in a skip then?

Peregrinus

kneemos wrote: »

Why can't we throw them in a skip then?

You're definition of "worship" is "regard as something which should not be disposed of in a skip"?

kneemos

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're definition of "worship" is "regard as something which should not be disposed of in a skip"?

What I think about anything has no bearing on the matter.

Simply asking the question,maybe you don't know?
They're obviously more than merely symbols?

Peregrinus

But there's a huge gap between "not a mere symbol" and "object of worship".

After all, we don't dispose of cadavers by dumping them in a skip. Do you conclude from that that we worship human cadavers? No, didn't think so.

If you're going to argue that, because Catholics don't dispose of relics by throwing them in a skip, therefore Catholics worship relics, you're going to have to fill in the missing steps in the argument. I can't really respond to an argument that you won't set out.

If you're arguing that Catholics worship relics based on other reasons, you need to set out those other reasons.

After all, an undeniable fact is the Catholics themselves deny that they worship relics. Since they presumably have better informotion about their own beliefs, attitudes, etc than you do, that's not a denial that we can simply dismiss without some clearly articulate reasons for dismissing it.

Over to you!

kneemos

Peregrinus wrote: »

But there's a huge gap between "not a mere symbol" and "object of worship".

After all, we don't dispose of cadavers by dumping them in a skip. Do you conclude from that that we worship human cadavers? No, didn't think so.

If you're going to argue that, because Catholics don't dispose of relics by throwing them in a skip, therefore Catholics worship relics, you're going to have to fill in the missing steps in the argument. I can't really respond to an argument that you won't set out.

If you're arguing that Catholics worship relics based on other reasons, you need to set out those other reasons.

After all, an undeniable fact is the Catholics themselves deny that they worship relics. Since they presumably have better informotion about their own beliefs, attitudes, etc than you do, that's not a denial that we can simply dismiss without some clearly articulate reasons for dismissing it.

Over to you!

No idea what dead bodies are about.

However perhaps there's an explanation why a piece of cloth from Mother Theresa's clothing goes on tour for veneration ?https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwiKtvyE-9nYAhXKBsAKHbvLBR4QFjABegQIExAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholicireland.net%2Fsaint-theresa-relic-begins-national-tour-cathedrals-ireland%2F&usg=AOvVaw0r_lr1c99derguBNgg9OM1

NaFirinne

I submit to God, the Holy Spirit and to His Son Jesus Christ.

I wouldn't bow down. worship or submit to anything else.

kelly1

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

And yet people attribute powers directly to such things as Padre Pios glove and relics of Fr Charles in Mount Argus.

On that point, see Acts 19:11-12...

God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

We Catholics don't make stuff up!

uck51js9zml2yt

kelly1 wrote: »

On that point, see Acts 19:11-12...

God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

We Catholics don't make stuff up!

I don't see anything in Acts which says put the handkerchief on tour and venerate it.

As for making stuff up. I would have chocked on my tea if I was still drinking it:)

beefburrito

That's the divide between the Sunnis and Shia.

The Sunnis believe in worshipping Allah and nothing else.

Doesn't one of the 10 commandments also say not to worship any idols or materialism.

I ain't religious but I ain't no fool either.

If one was to be a true believer in God wouldn't they worship God alone and not put up any religious paraphernalia in their place of worship, besides their humble book.

I'm agnostic but have read a lot about catholism and the Anglican church.

It seems the Anglican church cleaned up a lot of the distractions and bad habits the Holy See prescribed.

Some even proclaim the Catholic Church has been corrupted by the qare fella.....

kelly1

beefburrito wrote: »

Some even proclaim the Catholic Church has been corrupted by the qare fella.....

I think there's some truth in that. Pope Paul VI said the smoke of Satan had entered the Church. I'm pretty sure he was talking about Freemasons

But it's expected that the RCC would come under attack considering it's the Church founded by Christ.

uck51js9zml2yt

kelly1 wrote: »

I think there's some truth in that. Pope Paul VI said the smoke of Satan had entered the Church. I'm pretty sure he was talking about Freemasons

But it's expected that the RCC would come under attack considering it's the Church founded by Christ.

I never see Him mentioning that He was founding the RCC with all that goes with it.
Where in the NT do we see "princes of the church", the ritual, the assertion that the RCC is the one true church?

Bob_Marley

beefburrito wrote: »

Doesn't one of the 10 commandments also say not to worship any idols or materialism.

I ain't religious but I ain't no fool either.

If one was to be a true believer in God wouldn't they worship God alone and not put up any religious paraphernalia in their place of worship, besides their humble book.

Catholics only whorship God, so all those other tired old sectarian and strawman arguments claiming Catholics whorship objects or anything else are false.

beefburrito wrote: »

I'm agnostic but have read a lot about catholism and the Anglican church.

It seems the Anglican church cleaned up a lot of the distractions and bad habits the Holy See prescribed.

The Anglican church, because of it's veneration of Mary / the Anglican Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham,and praying the rosary, is also falsely accused by some Protestants sects for worshiping Mary. The same false argument also used against Catholics.

beefburrito wrote: »

Some even proclaim the Catholic Church has been corrupted by the qare fella.....

- Well he wouldn't be very intelligent if he tried to corrupt the the wrong Churches now would he ?
The enemies inside the Church are an ever bigger problem than the enemies outside it.
- But Christ proclaimed the gates of helll won't prevail against the Church.

uck51js9zml2yt

Why would you need to pray to anyone else but God?

Bob_Marley

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

Why would you need to pray to anyone else but God?

Where does Catholicism claim you have to ? It doesn't - as that's another old favourite sectarian false claim / strawman.

Also to pray doesn't mean to worship, it also means to ask, as in 'pray tell', and asking others to pray for you.

uck51js9zml2yt

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Where does Catholicism claim you have to ? It doesn't - as that's another old favourite sectarian false claim / strawman.

Also to pray doesn't mean to worship, it also means to ask, as in 'pray tell', and asking others to pray for you.

Dead people are generated and prayed to with the RCC please don't try telling me they are not.
The Hail Mary is one such example.

Why the need to pray to Mary ? Why not just pray to God directly!

Bob_Marley

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

Dead people are generated and prayed to with the RCC please don't try telling me they are not.

Generated ? . . .prayed to yes, where did anyone claim they were not ? Another false claim / straw man.

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

The Hail Mary is one such example.
Why the need to pray to Mary ? Why not just pray to God directly!

There's no requirement to say the Hail Mary in or pray to anyone other than God in Catholicism, it's optional. And Catholics when praying also always pray to God directly.

uck51js9zml2yt

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Generated ? . . .prayed to yes, where did anyone claim they were not ? Another false claim / straw man.



There's no requirement to say the Hail Mary in or pray to anyone other than God in Catholicism, it's optional. And Catholics when praying also always pray to God directly.

It was a typo..venerated not generated.

So If it's not a requirement, why do it.
And it's definitely a case of praying directly to her. I can rewrite it for you if you'd like as you don't seem to know what it says. "Hail Mary, full of grace.....etc"

There are of course the other prayers to the various "saints". Please don't tell me they're not being prayed to!

Bob_Marley

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

It was a typo..venerated not generated.

If you don't know the difference between worship and veneration, have a look at a dictionary.

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

So If it's not a requirement, why do it.

For exactly the same reasons Christians often ask others to pray for them. Why do they do that if it's not a requirement ?

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

And it's definitely a case of praying directly to her. I can rewrite it for you if you'd like as you don't seem to know what it says. "Hail Mary, full of grace.....etc"

Another false claim. No one said they don't. The first half of the Hail Mary is quoting the words about her in Scripture, the second part is asking her to pray for us. It would be no harm if you did write it out if you don't know this.

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

There are of course the other prayers to the various "saints". Please don't tell me they're not being prayed to!

Another false claim. No one said they don't. What I said was Catholics also always pray directly to God as well.

uck51js9zml2yt

Bob_Marley wrote: »

If you don't know the difference between worship and veneration, have a look at a dictionary.



For exactly the same reasons Christians often ask others to pray for them. Why do they do that if it's not a requirement ?



Another false claim. No one said they don't. The first half of the Hail Mary is quoting the words about her in Scripture, the second part is asking her to pray for us. It would be no harm if you did write it out if you don't know this.



Another false claim. No one said they don't. What I said was Catholics also always pray directly to God as well.

But why not just pray to God? What's do special about all these exalted beings that we pray to them.

Why is Mary co- Mediatrix and queen of heaven?
There is only one mediator according to the bible and it isn't a shared position and the only mention in the bible of the queen of heaven was astheroth, the pagan Goddess!

splinter65

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

Dead people are generated and prayed to with the RCC please don't try telling me they are not.
The Hail Mary is one such example.

Why the need to pray to Mary ? Why not just pray to God directly!

Mary is the mother of God. She’s with him in heaven. In the Hail Mary we are asking her to pray for us.
Should we pretend that Mary never existed? Why?

uck51js9zml2yt

splinter65 wrote: »

Mary is the mother of God. She’s with him in heaven. In the Hail Mary we are asking her to pray for us.
Should we pretend that Mary never existed? Why?

She was never the mother of God. God is without begining or end.
She was mother of His human form. He existed before He created her and gave her life.
She's in heaven as is every other person who has known Jesus as their Saviour. He refers to Him as such in the magnificat
He gave her no right to impose her will on Him on earth so why do you think He needs her to do so in His glorified state?
As for asking her to pray for us. Even Jesus says the day was coming when we would just ask the Father. Why should we pray to a saved being asking him/her to pray to the Father for us? Jesus said that we would ask the Father in His Name. No mention of Mary in the Bible as one who we should ask to pray for us.

Bob_Marley

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

But why not just pray to God?

Catholics often pray just to God.

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

What's do special about all these exalted beings that we pray to them.

If she is good enough for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, she's good enough for me. All nations shall call her blessed, and there is nothing wrong with asking anyone to pray for you.

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

Why is Mary co- Mediatrix and queen of heaven?
There is only one mediator according to the bible and it isn't a shared position and the only mention in the bible of the queen of heaven was astheroth, the pagan Goddess!

Neither of these are dogmas of faith in Catholicism for a start, and revelation Revelation 12:1-2 refers to Mary. As for the pagan godness astheroth, by that logic if you follow it through, baal then must be a god according to you.

Where's your prejudice and sectarianism towards Catholics really coming from do you think ?
I invite you to Pray to Jesus and ask him that, and about his Mother, and find out.

splinter65

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

She was never the mother of God. God is without begining or end.
She was mother of His human form. He existed before He created her and gave her life.
She's in heaven as is every other person who has known Jesus as their Saviour. He refers to Him as such in the magnificat
He gave her no right to impose her will on Him on earth so why do you think He needs her to do so in His glorified state?
As for asking her to pray for us. Even Jesus says the day was coming when we would just ask the Father. Why should we pray to a saved being asking him/her to pray to the Father for us? Jesus said that we would ask the Father in His Name. No mention of Mary in the Bible as one who we should ask to pray for us.

You’re not a Catholic. I’m not criticizing your Christian belief , so why do you feel the need to critize mine? Is a Catholic or anyone else preventing you from following your own belief system ?
If not then you need to pray to God and ask him to open your heart and let you see that you must allow others to believe differently to you.

uck51js9zml2yt

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Catholics often pray just to God.



If she is good enough for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, she's good enough for me. All nations shall call her blessed, and there is nothing wrong with asking anyone to pray for you.



Neither of these are dogmas of faith in Catholicism for a start, and revelation Revelation 12:1-2 refers to Mary. As for the pagan godness astheroth, by that logic if you follow it through, baal then must be a god according to you.

Where's your prejudice and sectarianism towards Catholics really coming from do you think ?
I invite you to Pray to Jesus and ask him that, and about his Mother, and find out.

Revelation is not Mary though the RCC like to think it is.
I only said the sole reference to the queen of heaven was of ashteroth.
Why did the RCC use the same idea.?
I may not be RC now but was for a lot of my life, so know more than you think I know:)
And why no response to the use of the title co redemptrix when there is only One who shed His blood to redeem mankind.?

Bob_Marley

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

Revelation is not Mary though the RCC like to think it is.
I only said the sole reference to the queen of heaven was of ashteroth.
Why did the RCC use the same idea.?
I may not be RC now but was for a lot of my life, so know more than you think I know:)
And why no response to the use of the title co redemptrix when there is only One who shed His blood to redeem mankind.?

But by your false claims and remarks you've demonstrated you don't know much about Catholicism, then or now. You actually mentioned mediatrix, which was already addressed, and co-redemptrix does not mean what you said at all, nor is it a doctrine of Catholicism either.

I've no issue with you practicing whatever version of Christianity that suits you, that's how free will works, but spreading ignorant false claims and sectarianism about other Christians is not Christianity, or loving your neighbour as yourself.

So, if you're serious about actual Christianity, I invite you again to Pray to Jesus and ask him why you are doing this, and also ask him about his Mother.

uck51js9zml2yt

Bob_Marley wrote: »

But by your false claims and remarks you've demonstrated you don't know much about Catholicism, then or now. You actually mentioned mediatrix, which was already addressed, and co-redemptrix does not mean what you said at all, nor is it a doctrine of Catholicism either.

I've no issue with you practicing whatever version of Christianity that suits you, that's how free will works, but spreading ignorant false claims and sectarianism about other Christians is not Christianity, or loving your neighbour as yourself.

So, if you're serious about actual Christianity, I invite you again to Pray to Jesus and ask him why you are doing this, and also ask him about his Mother.

I'm sure if Mary was so important to the early church she would have had a role in it and would be mentioned in Acts. She's not which is significant. She had a role to carry and rear Jesus but it ends there.
Giving her titles and places in heaven that her not hers to have is questionable.

Why was she given the title Queen of Heaven?

splinter65

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

I'm sure if Mary was so important to the early church she would have had a role in it and would be mentioned in Acts. She's not which is significant. She had a role to carry and rear Jesus but it ends there.
Giving her titles and places in heaven that her not hers to have is questionable.

Why was she given the title Queen of Heaven?

Who is the Queen of Heaven if not the Mother of God?
You’re displaying an almost sinister animosity and naked hostility towards the Mother of Our Lord.
I doubt if any branch of Christianity encourages this but maybe I’m wrong....

uck51js9zml2yt

splinter65 wrote: »

Who is the Queen of Heaven if not the Mother of God?
You’re displaying an almost sinister animosity and naked hostility towards the Mother of Our Lord.
I doubt if any branch of Christianity encourages this but maybe I’m wrong....

What does the title "queen of heaven" actually refer to?
As I said , the bible only uses the term once and its not good.
And she's Not the mother of God.God wasn't born so what is she referred to as such?
No hostility..I'm just asking questions and pointing out disparity between your position and what the Bible says.

splinter65

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

What does the title "queen of heaven" actually refer to?
As I said , the bible only uses the term once and its not good.
And she's Not the mother of God.God wasn't born so what is she referred to as such?
No hostility..I'm just asking questions and pointing out disparity between your position and what the Bible says.

Queen of Heaven . It’s a term used by Catholics to refer to Our Lady, Mary the Mother of God. It’s a Catholic term in common usage.
I’m struggling to understand why you seem to find it so distasteful and challenging.
I respect that you are approaching Christianity from a different perspective but your approach is combative and challenging and you don’t seem to offer Catholics on this thread the same respect.
I believe in God The Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.
I take it that you don’t celebrate Christmas at all?

Bob_Marley

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

I'm sure if Mary was so important to the early church she would have had a role in it and would be mentioned in Acts. She's not which is significant. She had a role to carry and rear Jesus but it ends there.

Plenty of people who had important parts to play in the Gospels and/or early Church are not mentioned in the book of acts, and some of those mentioned in the book of acts are not mentioned in the Gospels, so this doesn't have any bearing.

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

Giving her titles and places in heaven that her not hers to have is questionable.
Why was she given the title Queen of Heaven?

The Gospels are clear that all nations shall call her blessed, but Catholicism does not claim she is divine, or in any way as important as the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. She has been given many honorary titles including that one and, none of them are divine, nor designed to cause any offence unless you seek to be.

Bob_Marley

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

What does the title "queen of heaven" actually refer to?
As I said , the bible only uses the term once and its not good.
And she's Not the mother of God.God wasn't born so what is she referred to as such?
No hostility..I'm just asking questions and pointing out disparity between your position and what the Bible says.

The only disparity is invented straw manning.

Likewise, Pagan gods in scripture were also given the title of god by pagans, this does not mean the title of God is not good, so this argument holds no logic.

She is not God's mother in the sense that she is older than God (including God the son, Jesus) or the source of her Son’s divinity. We say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried Jesus (God) her womb and gave birth to God made man — Jesus Christ.

Elizabeth , when filled with the holy spirit, knew Mary was the mother of the Lord.

"41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" - Luke 1:41-44

Again, I invite you to pray to Jesus, and ask him for further understanding about his Mother.

Graces7

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

Why would you need to pray to anyone else but God?

The actual reality as is explained very very clearly in the huge volume of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not that you pray to eg mary and the saints but ask them to pray for you

It gets distorted and I agree totally with you.

Graces7

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

It was a typo..venerated not generated.

So If it's not a requirement, why do it.
And it's definitely a case of praying directly to her. I can rewrite it for you if you'd like as you don't seem to know what it says. "Hail Mary, full of grace.....etc""




But then "Holy Mary Mother of God , pray fr us sinners now and at the hour of our death." So asking her to pray. s

Graces7

Jon Melted Buffalo wrote: »

What does the title "queen of heaven" actually refer to?
As I said , the bible only uses the term once and its not good.
And she's Not the mother of God.God wasn't born so what is she referred to as such?
No hostility..I'm just asking questions and pointing out disparity between your position and what the Bible says.

What are your thoughts re the Assumption of Mary into heaven?

Also of the Orthodox "Theotokos" meaning "God-bearer"