Kia Niro EV

DrPhilG

To be honest once I stop trying to convince myself that I should buy a Tesla and get my head back on the e-Niro...

I'd be more inclined to just buy with normal finance. If I do get a Niro I'll plan to keep it for 5 years anyway because of the long warranty.

Silent Running

Silent Running wrote: »

We've only had them since July, so it's hard to put a year round average on it. Before the really cold weather started, my running average was 14.8kWh/100. I'm afraid to look at it recently.

With the Ioniq, I was very conscious of driving economically, but I drive the Niro more like an ICE car and don't really worry about range.

Sorry Phil, I meant to come back to this. The current running average is 15.1 kWh/100km. That's over 7,000kms covered from July 1st until today, 16/11.

DrPhilG

graememk wrote: »

Yeah I've put a order in for one, same price. Have to get the house sorted now/meter changed to get the night rate now.

Same story on the demo car.

@graememk
Is it the updated model you've ordered?

icom

Had a test drive in the eNiro today. Very smooth and a lot more extras than my Leaf 40. So deal done, deposit paid and taking delivery in January, can't wait

graememk

DrPhilG wrote: »

@graememk
Is it the updated model you've ordered?

Maybe? When I ordered, expected delivery was march, But was up today test driving the one they had.

They now have one for me in January with my name on it if I want it, but it is definitely the MY 2019 model.

March model will be more expensive(approx 2k more) - they are to get back to me on Monday with whats different, (Im guessing its the PHEV spec, or hope it is) and I can make a decision on which one I want to go for.

Decision has to be made is the updated spec worth it or not, will find out when they get back to me with more information.

Gonna be out of country for 6 weeks at the start of the year so a march delivery was fine.

If its going to be available in january, its prob on the boat already from Korea

DrPhilG

graememk wrote: »

March model will be more expensive(approx 2k more) - they are to get back to me on Monday with whats different, (Im guessing its the PHEV spec, or hope it is) and I can make a decision on which one I want to go for.

Yeah extras (I think/hope) are ventilated front seats, heated rear, bigger screen, electric seat adjustment, seat memory and app support.

graememk

DrPhilG wrote: »

Yeah extras (I think/hope) are ventilated front seats, heated rear, bigger screen, electric seat adjustment, seat memory and app support.

App support would be useful, it will be a shared car between myself and the other half, and start times in the morning can vary.

I'm hoping for dual climate control too!

JohnC.

DrPhilG wrote: »

Yeah extras (I think/hope) are ventilated front seats, heated rear, bigger screen, electric seat adjustment, seat memory and app support.

LED lights?

DrPhilG

JohnC. wrote: »

LED lights?

Oh yeah that too.

unkel

Ryath wrote: »

This makes no sense, you actually pay less interest with the GMFV set low as your monthly payments are higher so you pay it back quicker.

I'm sorry Sir, but that doesn't make sense. I'll give you a simplified example. Let's say no deposit, no trade in, €40k car, 3 year term 6% interest and GMFV scenario 1 of €10k and scenario 2 of €20k and let's say the car ends up being worth €15k

Stick your figures in this PCP calculator if you don't believe me, linky

1. monthly payment €912.66, so €32,856 after 3 years. You will buy the car for €10k and sell it for €15k so your total spent is €27,856

2. monthly payment €608,44, so €21,904 after 3 years. Car is worth less than GMFV so you hand back the keys. Total spent is €21,904

QED

unkel

Or the old skool way without any calculators. If you buy a €40k car with a €20k GMFV, you only pay back and pay interest on the difference. So you have a loan of €40k-€20k = €20k at the beginning and €0 at the end. Or on average the loan is €10k over which you pay €600 per year interest. So payback is €1800 interest and €20k loan = €21800

If you buy the car with a €10k GFMV, you only pay back and pay interest on the difference. So you have a loan of €40k-€10k = €30k at the beginning and €0 at the end. Or on average the loan is €15k over which you pay €900 per year interest. So payback is €2700 interest and €30k loan = €32700 (but you get to buy the car for €10k GFMV and sell it privately (you hope) for €15k, so €27500 total cost

Hope you get the picture?

Ryath

unkel wrote: »

Stick your figures in this PCP calculator if you don't believe me, linky

1. monthly payment €912.66, so €32,856 after 3 years. You will buy the car for €10k and sell it for €15k so your total spent is €27,856

2. monthly payment €608,44, so €21,904 after 3 years. Car is worth less than GMFV so you hand back the keys. Total spent is €21,904

QED

That calculator isn't correct any pcp I've seen here you are paying interest on the GMFV too. €40000-4000 deposit €36000 borrowed, you pay interest on all of this. Look at the table in my post your cost of credit/interest is lower with the higher GMFV

GMFV would never be set so high everyone would hand the car back. 40% or so is the norm dealer need to be able to give a good enough trade in for customer to go for pcp again.

unkel wrote: »

Or the old skool way without any calculators. If you buy a €40k car with a €20k GMFV, you only pay back and pay interest on the difference. So you have a loan of €40k-€20k = €20k at the beginning and €0 at the end. Or on average the loan is €10k over which you pay €600 per year interest. So payback is €1800 interest and €20k loan = €21800

If you buy the car with a €10k GFMV, you only pay back and pay interest on the difference. So you have a loan of €40k-€10k = €30k at the beginning and €0 at the end. Or on average the loan is €15k over which you pay €900 per year interest. So payback is €2700 interest and €30k loan = €32700 (but you get to buy the car for €10k GFMV and sell it privately (you hope) for €15k, so €27500 total cost

Hope you get the picture?

As I said above you pay interest on the full amount. Look at the Kia site for accurate figures. They are offering 3.9 PCP which is only ok and 3.9% onHP which is pretty good. Lot better than any bank. Plenty of other manufacturers are offering 0% PCP and 1.9% rates.

unkel

Ryath wrote: »

That calculator isn't correct any pcp I've seen here you are paying interest on the GMFV too.

No, that's not how PCP works. You only finance the amount needed now minus the GMFV

CPTM

I'm trying to find in the thread here where we can test drive and order for Jan delivery. Is there anywhere in Dublin or do I need to go to Letterkenny? No need for loan or pcp if that matters?

graememk

CPTM wrote: »

I'm trying to find in the thread here where we can test drive and order for Jan delivery. Is there anywhere in Dublin or do I need to go to Letterkenny? No need for loan or pcp if that matters?

I'd ring or call round to the local dealers and see would be your best bet, I think there is one to test drive at Kia airside or something like that.

unkel

@Ryath, I also did the sums on your Kia finance. Same thing. You probably didn't spot it, but in the small print they say they haven't included delivery and related charges. If you include those, you get pretty much the monthly advertised payment of €415

Why do I spend my Saturday evening doing all this? In the genuine hope that I might have helped a handful of people understand PCP before they get into it. It should NOT be the default / easy option for people buying cars. All the risk is with the buyer and none of the risk is with the dealer. You do not own the car. PCP is a bad deal (unless on or near zero APR, but very few of them are)

Do yourself and your family a favour and save up first, then buy a car.

Rusky rusky

unkel wrote: »

No, that's not how PCP works. You only finance the amount needed now minus the GMFV

I had an argument on PCP thread before about it but playing with any pcp calculator where you can change the GMFV shows that with same loan/term/interest charge the higher GMFV the higher the cost of credit. Basically you charged interest on your GMFV which does not reduce during the pcp term. This why it is important to check the total cost of credit when comparing different types of finance. PCP may not be that cheap

unkel

Rusky rusky wrote: »

Basically you charged interest on your GMFV

No. You are not charged interest on the GMFV.

Rusky rusky wrote: »

it is important to check the total cost of credit

Aye. And in my personal opinion you are much better off saving for a car first and then negotiating a cash price. I did that with my current car. Paid 25k cash almost 3 years ago and the car is still worth well over 20k in a private sale.

Rusky rusky

unkel wrote: »

No. You are not charged interest on the GMFV.



Aye. And in my personal opinion you are much better off saving for a car first and then negotiating a cash price. I did that with my current car. Paid 25k cash almost 3 years ago and the car is still worth well over 20k in a private sale.

From https://www.vwfinance.co.uk/content/sites/vwbank/vwfinancecouk/en/privatecustomers/faqs_and_glossary/QA/payments/interestcalc.html
How is the interest calculated on a Personal Contract Plan (Solutions Agreement)?
There are two distinct calculations for working out the interest charges on a Personal Contract Plan:

1. The deferred optional final (balloon) payment will attract interest at the actual true effective rate of interest for the duration of the term of the Agreement (i.e. as this remains outstanding for the whole period).

2. The balance (cost less the initial deposit and the deferred optional final (balloon) payment) attracts interest at a flat rate per annum and this, together with the amount borrowed and optional interest is repaid over the life of the Agreement.

PS I’m not sure whether it’s the case in Ireland

Ryath

I don't want to be arguing on the internet on Saturday night either I am saying to people should be clear and understand PCP before entering them. But lots can't seem get their head around it and you are muddying the waters too throwing out statements that aren't correct. I do respect you opinion, I've read plenty where you were right! We do post in a lot of the same forums! Yes we would be all better off financially if we all saved up to buy our cars but it's not how the western world works. If someone can can afford the repayments and understand the figures it's not a bad way of spreading the cost of the purchase instead of taking a rather large chunk out your saving's in one go.

Yes there are plenty who were stung seduced by idea of low €250 a month repayments when they put in a high deposit and manufacturer set a high GMFV. (BMW I'm looking at you!) So at the at end of 3 years after paying out 20k they have a balloon they can't nether afford to buy the car outright and or have enough equity in the car on trade in to go again, without putting in a several thousand of a deposit again or have much higher monthlys when they could only just about afford the €250 previously!

On the other hand there's plenty who have just put in a 10% deposit who do understand how it works and are happy and can afford paying €400/500 a month to change their car every 3 years.

You do pay interest on the GMFV, And I did actually notice the delivery charge. There would be a small admin fee to for setting up the finance.
You said you ran the figures on the KIA site and they were the same?

Ryath wrote: »

GMFV is set at €14,998.00 on their own site but RRP doesn't include delivery
https://www.kiacredit.ie/

My original post with Kia own figure's
RRP (ex. works)† €37,495.00
Deposit/trade in (min: 10%, max: 30%) € 4,000.00
GMFV (Optional Final Payment) €14,998.00
Fixed term (months) 37
Finance amount €33,495.00
Total cost of credit €2,878.85
36 monthly payments of €592.01
APR%* 3.9% Fixed

If I stick them in the PCP calculator you linked to where the GMFV value is not part of the Finance amount borrowed.

RRP (ex. works)† €37,495.00
Deposit/trade in (min: 10%, max: 30%) € 4,000.00
GMFV (Optional Final Payment) €14,998.00
Fixed term (months) 36
Finance amount €18497
Total cost of credit €1,133.08
36 monthly payments of €545.28
APR%* 3.9% Fixed


Where is the difference in interest coming from? €2,878.85-€1,133.08 = €1745.77 It's because you are paying interest on the GMFV! And it says it there in the Finance amount.

After all that I probably wouldn't go for it on PCP at at 3.9% it is adding nearly €3k to the cost of the car. It's the easiest way to compare all these deals just look at the total cost of credit, how much extra are you actually paying for the car if you finance.

To keep relevant it to the Niro I probably will go get some finance figures and I will test drive it. In my case HP would make more sense and the cost of credit is lower. My monthly's would be a bit higher this would be nearly be offset by the fuel savings. In realty 40k is bit over budget I'd prefer to keep it under the €30k mark and there's not an EV that meets my requirements yet at that price point.

We've done two 0% PCP deals on my wife's car and I bought my own on 0% HP. I do have a good idea about how it works I spent a lot of time comparing figures and researching the options every time to be sure it was a the right plan. The Zero cost of credit helped a lot!

First PCP deal ball park figures 27k cost of car we still got a bit over €3k off list price, actually only put up a 1.7k deposit as they allowed a 1k cash back deal off it, €390 monthly's and a 12k gmfv. Got 18.5k on trade in after 3 years so €6500 equity to go to a deposit on the new deal. New car was 28k so now the monthly's are just over 300.

We really should be discussing this in the PCP thread!

Anyway got to go! I'm tired and this post is probably littered with typos and spelling mistakes! And I have to go see a man about a dog in the morning!

TLDR Look at the Total cost of credit in the two tables.
Apologies this wasn't more succinct I do tend to ramble sometimes!

DrPhilG

Had the e-Niro for a test drive today. Fine car. No offence to any Kona owners here but the e-Niro really makes the Kona look like cheap crap (except not cheap).

Much bigger, much better interior finish and better looking (my opinion of course).

Can I justify spending €41k on it? I don't think so. Despite wanting the car for well over a year, I don't love it enough to shell out the money. I think I'll probably bide my time another year and see how the EV scene looks then.

And on the hotly debated subject of finance...

I priced 3 options for the car. 2 straight finance, one PCP. List price of the updated model is €41k (well technically €40,900)


Option A
Straight finance over 5 years
5.9% APR
€4k deposit
60 x €706 payments
Total -
Cost of finance - €5,460


Option B
Straight finance over 4 years
5.9% APR
€10k deposit
48 x €721 payments
Cost of finance - €3708


PCP
3.9%
20k km annual allowance
€4k deposit
36 x €692 payments
GMFV - €14998

So if I bought out the car for the GMFV at the end, the total price would be €43,910 which is a cost of finance = €3010.

And given that the car would certainly be worth more than €15k that PCP deal looks not bad, no?

graememk

DrPhilG wrote: »

Had the e-Niro for a test drive today. Fine car. No offence to any Kona owners here but the e-Niro really makes the Kona look like cheap crap (except not cheap).

.....

I was quoted 3.9% finance, which tallys with the kiacredit.ie rate.

Was that for the march delivery? for the "newer model"
Edit, nevermind i cant read!

Silent Running

DrPhilG wrote: »

Had the e-Niro for a test drive today. Fine car. No offence to any Kona owners here but the e-Niro really makes the Kona look like cheap crap (except not cheap).

Much bigger, much better interior finish and better looking (my opinion of course).

Can I justify spending €41k on it? I don't think so. Despite wanting the car for well over a year, I don't love it enough to shell out the money. I think I'll probably bide my time another year and see how the EV scene looks then.

Hi Phil,
Was the screen the 7", 8" or the new 10.25"?

Did you get to give it a good razz?

Lumen

DrPhilG wrote: »

And given that the car would certainly be worth more than €15k that PCP deal looks not bad, no?

You're not comparing like with like, because the PCP cost of finance is over 3 years whereas the straight finance is over 4 or 5.

I'd go with the straight finance as it gives you a known "flightpath" until the car is fully paid off, with the proviso that I'd want the option of paying the finance off early (not sure what Ts&Cs are).

DrPhilG

graememk wrote: »

I was quoted 3.9% finance, which tallys with the kiacredit.ie rate.

Was that for the march delivery? for the "newer model"

Yeah 3.9%, just added that itno my previous post. And yes the newer model. Sales man hadn't a clue what was being added to the newer model, except what he had been told the other day by icom, lol.

I get that dealers may not be that up to speed on the EV specifics (although they should be) but knowing what features are coming on a newer model isn't rocket science.

Range worried me too. The one I test drove showed 319km at around 80%, but when I put the heat on to 22 degrees it dropped to 275.

Rough estimate that would give a full range in winter of about 350km, probably less the way I drive. I had hoped for a minimum of around 400km in any weather and speed.

DrPhilG

Lumen wrote: »

You're not comparing like with like, because the PCP cost of finance is over 3 years whereas the straight finance is over 4 or 5.

I'd go with the straight finance as it gives you a known "flightpath" until the car is fully paid off, with the proviso that I'd want the option of paying the finance off early (not sure what Ts&Cs are).

Either way I think the straight finance is at 5.9% rather than 3.9%

But as I say, I don't think I'll be purchasing for now. I'll see what the next year brings. Maybe some second hand e-Niros from the UK, maybe the second hand CPO Model S will creep into my budget, who knows. Maybe I'll go splash out on leather seats for the i3 and keep it another few years after all.

DrPhilG

Silent Running wrote: »

Hi Phil,
Was the screen the 7", 8" or the new 10.25"?

Did you get to give it a good razz?

It's the original model, new one not landing til March or April.

I didn't go too far, just about a km away and then back. I did leave the dealer and had quite a bit of wheelspin both starting and again at about 30kmph which I wasn't keen on.

Put the boot down and opened up a bit just to see how responsive it is at higher speed and it performed well. Foot down at 90kmph and you still get a good response. That was the big difference for me moving from the 24kWh Leaf to the i3. Acceleration for overtaking a 90kmph car is poor in the Leaf, effortless in the i3. So the e-Niro would not be a step back.

graememk

When i took it down the road for a spin, i didn't go easy on it, (got to test the acceleration!), but when the mrs drove it back it recovered a good bit.

80% at 300 would be about 400km full. Lets see if they call me with more information tomorrow.

Bif

Folks. What’s the road noise like in the Niro? Thanks.

CPTM

DrPhilG wrote: »

Had the e-Niro for a test drive today. Fine car. No offence to any Kona owners here but the e-Niro really makes the Kona look like cheap crap (except not cheap).

With which dealer did you manage to get a test drive?