Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

N25 - Carrigtwohill to Midleton [route options published]

Options
1234579

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,814 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I don't think any sort of a junction would fit there tbh. I'd say TII think this too, hence their reluctance to tackle it. The existing situation is a bottleneck but it isn't particularly dangerous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 826 ✭✭✭omicron


    A large volume of traffic is currently diverting via Mogeely to avoid Castlemartyr, so a single carriageway relief road would likely end up over capacity in a short time if this traffic rejoined the main line.

    Definitely can't justify dual carriageway east of Killeagh though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,868 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I don't know the AADTs, but I'd certainly say 2+2 from Midleton to the far side of Castlemartyr. Its always ridiculously busy. As for Killeagh, its only a few extra km, so extend 2+2 to the far side.

    Then you might as well go to the Youghal bypass. That could then easily be updated to 2+2 (They had originally planned this).

    But then you run into the Youghal Bridge. That'll eventually have to be replaced, and that would be nice and expensive to do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    That traffic going via Mogeely is what creates the problems in Killeagh.

    If the single-carriageway road west of the Two Mile Inn can accommodate the traffic it carries, then a relief road at Castlemartyr can too. Castlemartyr itself needs a relief road to stop its main street being used as the road to Garryvoe, and this will have to be done regardless of what is done for N25.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    The new local road will join into the Oatencake Interchange, so they're proposing either sending agri machinery back to the Lakeview via the dual carriageway from Oatencake interchange built up area (poor idea), or through Main Street built up area (worse idea). The elephant in the room is always going to be this section between Oatencake and East-of-Lakeview. So the big N25 problems aren't occurring on the stretch that's being upgraded by this scheme, other than the tailbacks at Oatencake Interchange.

    Lakeview, Castlemartyr, Killeagh are the biggest N25 problems I experience. And no question Lakeview is absolutely a huge project.

    But from what I can see, this scheme is primarily about getting a new junction into Ballyadam/Waterrock to develop the lands there. And that looks like poor use of public money: prioritising a road interchange as your primary transport mode to a new residential and employment area 15km from the city centre. I could be wrong, perhaps this will be the first urban area in Cork where they hit their target mode shares...but I won't hold my breath to be honest.

    And even with that land development objective in mind, surely you'd get more bang-for-buck putting your distributor road a little further north, nearer to the train line, such that it serves more of the proposed urban area? In the current design, the new distributor will be pinned up against the existing dual carriageway, so only one side of it will be useful as a distributor.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Exactly yes, I agree with you both and I think Lakeview needs to become limited in exactly the way you describe.

    And as Pete_Cavan says, a full junction East of the existing Lakeview.

    There actually is quite a lot of space immediately South East of the existing interchange, but I suspect a new interchange would need to be even further east?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,868 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Trouble is, South East of Lakeview is an old Georgian style house, Lakeview House. It needs TLC, but I don't think carving it, and the lands, up to do that will be a runner.

    Flyover the roundabout, roughly following the current line of the N25, then put a new junction slightly south linking to the new Whitegate road (if that gets built) and the current N25.

    And maybe continue 2+2 to Youghal while you're at it!!!

    Edit: Maybe Dungarvan while the diggers are out



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    LIDAR/Orthophotgraphy/Drainage survey out to tender



    This seems to be moving at pace



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,814 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Given this project will happen within the existing road space plus a strip to the side (plus the land required for the new junction), does it have to go through the full planning process with oral hearings, etc? Or can they shorten the process?



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,814 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There must be some threshold above which oral hearings and the like come into play, what was the process for the multiple reasonably large National Secondary road projects (N52, N55, N56, etc.)? This project will affect much fewer people than a new build offline road.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users Posts: 38 OpinionN


    But....this project wasn't supposed to be a development facilitator, right? This was a "SAFETY" project they said. They went to great lengths to say that this project was for safety of vulnerable road users, and that it happened to also open up development land in the area. Nobody was proposing this road upgrade to facilitate development atall atall. I think you can see what I'm saying.

    The provision of a distributor network in the Carrigtohill/Midleton area should be a LA project, with assistance from NTA/TII. Plugging all residential and commercial developments in the area directly into the N25 would have been highly irresponsible. Particularly when there's an active rail line on the corridor.

    Given the care they took to ignore the real road safety and traffic issues in the East Cork area, I felt it was an extremely cynical project.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    This wasn't mentioned in the 2022 Allocations announcement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38 OpinionN


    Yep mothballed I believe. I think there's a discussion after starting on Castlemartyr/Killeagh though. Both would be higher priorities, as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to see the Carrigtohill-Midleton corridor developed properly, but not under the guise of some "helping out pedestrians" roads upgrade project.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,814 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    My theory is TII are reluctant to do anything on Castlemartyr/Killeagh until Lakeview RAB and issues west of Midleton are sorted. It seems political interference has seen money allocated to Castlemartyr/Killeagh for next year but it is still several years away from a planning application regardless.

    Imo they'd be better off continuing with Carrigtwohill to Midleton for now, given it is smaller and further down the line. That €100k would move the project further forward than it will Castlemartyr/Killeagh. It's the kind of project which should be moved through planning and then see where we are in terms of funding. The cost is relatively low, it is mostly online and addresses a safety issue so it has a chance in the short/medium term.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,868 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    There is still the Ryan problem though.


    Actually I suspect that the low commitments for 2022 are partly due to the built-in 2:1 ratio of spending between public transport and roads. They are fast realising that due to lack of planning and NIMBYs there aren't really any public transport schemes ready to spend that level of money on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Multi-million euro upgrade of Cork road shelved due to lack of funding

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40782291.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 38 OpinionN


    I believe that to be the case too: they don't have enough sustainable transport schemes ready. Very frustrating really, from both perspectives (roads & sustainable transport).



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 38 OpinionN


    At least the councillors are honest about the purpose, there.

    "needed to provide for the proposed development of a 5,000-house town adjacent to the N25 at Water Rock, near Midleton. "

    "also vital for IDA plans for further industrial development in the Carrigtwohill area"


    That was exactly my understanding of the project's purpose also. I don't think that should be funded as a national corridor project though, that's a local development project as far as I can see, right?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,868 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    "Shelved" is media frenzy. It hasn't been shelved, it just hasn't got funding this year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38 OpinionN


    Even outside that, it just hasn't got TII funding this year! It's probably possible to fund this housing infrastructure via housing infrastructure funds!



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Not to the scale of the works here. It should def be funded via a joint TII/DoH/CCC project rather than what it was before. I'd imagine that's what TII are angling for


    On a more general note, the sensible approach here would be an N25 Carrigtwohill-Killeagh East/Youghal scheme encompassing the upgrade of this road to motorway standards (as it is west of Barryscourt), the addressing of the Lakeview mess, bypassing Killeagh and Castlemartyr and stopping either east of Killeagh or at the Youghal bypass. The current ad hoc approach is poor in the long term. Even if it takes time, doing it right and getting the savings from scale would be very meritorious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38 OpinionN


    Yep agreed on all points. If the job's worth doing....etc

    I think there's more to this particular project than TII alone. The finished product will have significant implications for settlement and development patterns in the area. It's much more than just a safety upgrade. Money should be poured into the rail and active transport corridors up to Midleton and the new junction should be well protected so that it's developed with care.

    The whole area of this project should be suitable for a master area plan, but the Cork County Development Plan doesn't include one. It's a bit chicken-and-egg, obviously, but an important land development infrastructure project like this should be working towards a master development plan, not some vague aspiration of "unlocking development potential". As you say, TII, DoH and CCC should sit down and plan it out. I hope they haven't missed the boat with the Cork County Development Plan 2022-2028.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Cork was, once again, trying to piggyback on the National roads budget to fund its local infrastructure needs. Personally, I’m happy that the funding has been postponed on this - the money is better spent elsewhere in the country. (If it had to be spent on N25, I would have preferred the money to be spent in making an overpass at the Lakeview roundabout and tidying the junction for Midleton just East of the roundabout; or in putting a relief road in place in Castlemartyr)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,814 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I'd say what has happened in TII redirected the funding from this to Castlemartyr/Killeagh after they were told to reactivate the project after that FFer threw a strop. It's likely the unforeseen consequences of politicians sticking their nose in. That €100k would probably get Carrigtwohill - Midleton to ABP which would be a better use.

    Carrigtwohill - Midleton is the first step in upgrading the N25 east of there. Removing the Lakeview RAB first would only make this section more dangerous. There is no chance of anything happening east of Midleton before 2026 anyway, and even then it is likely to be down the priorities list given the bachlog by then, so spending money there now achieves nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,865 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    shelving it for now seems to have been a sensible decision.

    If theres a need for an odd flyover or junction to enable industrial estates or new towns be connected to the national road network then thats a different pot of cash to national roads development and not something that needs a full dual carraigeway upgrade.

    From a national perspective the bypasses of Castlemartyr and Killeagh are definitely more of a benefit , even if the progress on those projects came through political meddling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Limerick74


    Cork Chamber news release on the decision to cut funding to project https://chamber.corkchamber.ie/news/details/news-release-11-01-2022



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭rebs23


    Not sure that's a fair comment given the N25 is a Euro route, the site at Ballyadam (IDA lands) needs access upgrading for various upcoming projects including the Celtic Interconnector (electricity from France), the N25 is a national route connecting the 3 southern ports that are increasingly important in the context of changing export routes following Brexit. It is a road of growing national importance and the volumes between Carrigtwohill and Midleton are greater than many other routes that are getting upgraded. It is an area that has seen some of the most rapid population growth in Ireland and it needs upgrading.

    The upgrade on the M8/7 at Naas facilitated better access to Naas and in particular the Kerry site, there is a long list of roads where it could be argued got funding from the national pie that were really only for local access/development reasons. Not sure where you think the money would be better spent but I personally could never understand how or why the N24 seems to be getting more priority than the N25 but anyway ......



Advertisement