N25 - Carrigtwohill to Midleton [route options published]

hans aus dtschl

niloc1951 wrote: »

I remember reading about using the eastbound carriageway as a local two way service road, and building a new carriageway adjacent to the existing westbound one which has no dwellings. That delivers a dedicated HQDC/Mway from Jct.4 to Jct.5 and a non Mway route between the the towns of Carrigtwohill and Midleton.

I like the idea but westbound has dwellings alright.

niloc1951

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I like the idea but westbound has dwellings alright.

Had, they're all gone/vacant now. Possibly CPO'd.

hans aus dtschl

niloc1951 wrote: »

Had, they're all gone/vacant now. Possibly CPO'd.

Was that very recent?
I knew someone living at Milebush until quite recently.

niloc1951

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Was that very recent?
I knew someone living at Milebush until quite recently.

I stand corrected, there are houses there, perhaps developements and roads realignments in connection with the old Amgen site could facilitate their remaining.

hans aus dtschl

niloc1951 wrote: »

I stand corrected, there are houses there, perhaps developements and roads realignments in connection with the old Amgen site could facilitate their remaining.

It's only a few but I'm fairly confident they're still lived in. The problem is that at the brow of the hill there, there's a house directly across the road and more importantly a local MV/LV substation or set of transformers or something within the Amgen boundary. To my mind it's one of the toughest parts of the whole thing to resolve. There, and the turn off for Waterrock (Castle Rock Ave), there's no space there either.

And with all of that said, these are nowhere near as much an issue as what's East of Midleton. There's houses all over the 100kmh 1+1 East of Midleton and I'd much rather see roads money spent on those "in the interests of safety".

I'll say the same thing again, this project absolutely stinks of another Co Co attempt to "open up land for development". It's 7.5km to the city boundary as the crow flies: this is textbook Co Co "development" (car dependent sprawl).

marno21

wrote:

It would appear alright that the primary objective from the local stakeholders is a GSJ opening up the Amgen site and Water Rock.

From a national perspective, TII would like to address seriously deficient stretches of dual carriageway (there are a few left, N18 Limerick-Shannon, N11 south of Bray, N25 here, N71 mess near Chetwynd).

However, I can see a lot of locals being peeved at this money being spent here as the benefits will not be felt for the vast majority of people who interact with this stretch of road.

I drove from Youghal to Cork yesterday at peak time and the primary issue along the route was the Lakeview Roundabout. It's simply not feasible to have those 4 roads meeting at an at grade roundabout, and it'll be far, far worse when Dunkettle is complete.

A sensible approach here would have seen an N25 Carrigtwohill-Youghal scheme, which would provide 30km of motorway between Barryscourt and east of Youghal, including upgrading the N25 between Carrigtwohill and Lakeview, grade separating Lakeview, bypassing Castlemartyr and Killeagh and a relatively cheap upgrade of the Youghal bypass. Would have been immensely useful to the area.

Chris_5339762

I have the 2006 route option on my hard drive but unfortunately its too big to upload

marno21

wrote:

Could you printscreen or snipping tool it and pop it up then?

Would be great to have if you could.

niloc1951

marno21 wrote: »

It would appear alright that the primary objective from the local stakeholders is a GSJ opening up the Amgen site and Water Rock.

From a national perspective, TII would like to address seriously deficient stretches of dual carriageway (there are a few left, N18 Limerick-Shannon, N11 south of Bray, N25 here, N71 mess near Chetwynd).

However, I can see a lot of locals being peeved at this money being spent here as the benefits will not be felt for the vast majority of people who interact with this stretch of road.

I drove from Youghal to Cork yesterday at peak time and the primary issue along the route was the Lakeview Roundabout. It's simply not feasible to have those 4 roads meeting at an at grade roundabout, and it'll be far, far worse when Dunkettle is complete.

A sensible approach here would have seen an N25 Carrigtwohill-Youghal scheme, which would provide 30km of motorway between Barryscourt and east of Youghal, including upgrading the N25 between Carrigtwohill and Lakeview, grade separating Lakeview, bypassing Castlemartyr and Killeagh and a relatively cheap upgrade of the Youghal bypass. Would have been immensely useful to the area.

IIRC the final bit of that upgrade was to be a new bridge over the Blackwater about 400m south of the existing one, to create a straight run from the end of the Youghal Bypass to Kinsalebeg.

marno21

wrote:

I'd love to see how that route would work in practice. The Kinsalebeg side is quite a steep drop down to where the N25 is and a dual carriagewya on the Kinsalebeg side would require some serious blasting. There is just about enough room for a basic S2 there and it has to turn 90 degrees at the bridge.

My reading of all this is that TII's plan to build a new road between Cahir and Waterford means Rosslare/Waterford-Cork traffic will be sent via the M8 and N24 when that's done. God knows what the long term plan for the N25 is but the NDP makes for depressing reading for N25 users. Carrigtwohill-Midleton, Waterford-New Ross and Wexford-Rosslare are all that's in there. Three of the least important sections for upgrading.

FGR

marno21 wrote: »

Three of the least important sections for upgrading.

Three of the least important sections but also, probably, the cheapest.

It's one major downside to not having a front bench minister in the Waterford or East Cork constituencies. And it doesn't look like we'll have one for time to come.

I've often wondered about the bypassing of Castlemartyr or Killeagh - is it being put back so much as to prevent further congestion at Lakeview? There are mornings where there's miles of traffic on the east-west route. It could only be considerably worse if they progressed those bypasses without dealing with that disaster and, of course, Dunkettle.

Plus - the decision to work on the N24 + M8 and sending Rosslare-Cork traffic that way makes sense from a political perspective as it benefits the people of Limerick a huge amount over an M25; a county which had prominent influence from various TDs/Ministers. Limerick will become the second best connected city in Ireland after Dublin. Again another problem with the Waterford representation sadly.

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

However, I can see a lot of locals being peeved at this money being spent here as the benefits will not be felt for the vast majority of people who interact with this stretch of road.

It's worse for locals because this next piece of work will actively increase traffic on the N25. Long-term they hope to build a surface mall on the Amgen site and a large number of new houses on the Waterrock SDZ site phases 2 and 3.

Cork County Council say that the existing Midleton West junction doesn't need to be upgraded to facilitate the Waterrock SDZ, "because it will have such low number of car users".
They now simultaneously want the N25 Amgen junction opened. The implications are quite clear: the aim is to create and facilitate a new destination for car users just outside the city boundary.

The Waterrock SDZ is at least a worthy cause: we need housing. And we need serious density along that rail line. But I disagree with an Amgen GSJ to achieve it. I'd rather see a proper Midleton West GSJ instead. If you have a car, you can afford to drive a few km extra to that GSJ. It's 5km between Midleton and Carrigtohill junctions. It's two or three minutes drive. People living inside the area will never opt to use sustainable transport if we always design so that the car always has the shortest possible journey (often shorter than the sustainable users)!

The surface mall though is unacceptable. An Amgen GSJ to facilitate that is just bonkers stuff: why not dispense with the County Development Plan in its entirety if that's what they're going to do.

niloc1951

marno21 wrote: »

I'd love to see how that route would work in practice. The Kinsalebeg side is quite a steep drop down to where the N25 is and a dual carriagewya on the Kinsalebeg side would require some serious blasting. There is just about enough room for a basic S2 there and it has to turn 90 degrees at the bridge..................................

Easiest way to explain.
East of the roundabout at the end of the bypass is at sea level, the proposal was to put the new bridge straigh across the river to connect to the east bank of the river where the old toll house is, widening the N25 to Kinsalebeg was to be by infilling the to the south of the existing road.
The proposal provided a more or less straight run at sea level between the two points via a new bridge of adequate width.

road_high

marno21 wrote: »

I'd love to see how that route would work in practice. The Kinsalebeg side is quite a steep drop down to where the N25 is and a dual carriagewya on the Kinsalebeg side would require some serious blasting. There is just about enough room for a basic S2 there and it has to turn 90 degrees at the bridge.

My reading of all this is that TII's plan to build a new road between Cahir and Waterford means Rosslare/Waterford-Cork traffic will be sent via the M8 and N24 when that's done. God knows what the long term plan for the N25 is but the NDP makes for depressing reading for N25 users. Carrigtwohill-Midleton, Waterford-New Ross and Wexford-Rosslare are all that's in there. Three of the least important sections for upgrading.

The whole Co Wexford part of the N25 has all been replaced and upgraded to various standards (parts of it now twice) since the 1980s/90s. The real problem and priority needs to be section around Dungarvan and also Youghal and Youghal-Midleton. This is by far the most pressing need It's a pretty decent road now from Rosslare to west of Lemybrien- after that is where the concentrated effort needs to be. I don't know how TII can't see this they should be making that point clearly.

road_high

niloc1951 wrote: »

IIRC the final bit of that upgrade was to be a new bridge over the Blackwater about 400m south of the existing one, to create a straight run from the end of the Youghal Bypass to Kinsalebeg.

I'd say that will be a massively expensive undertaking. The terrain doesn't lend itself to much else I suppose. Youghal bridge and approach from the Dungarvan side is certainly not ideal but it's not a huge bottleneck either so I think bypassing Killeigh and Castlemartyr would be much more immediate priority (alos busier too).

tonc76

niloc1951 wrote: »

Easiest way to explain.
East of the roundabout at the end of the bypass is at sea level, the proposal was to put the new bridge straigh across the river to connect to the east bank of the river where the old toll house is, widening the N25 to Kinsalebeg was to be by infilling the to the south of the existing road.
The proposal provided a more or less straight run at sea level between the two points via a new bridge of adequate width.

that's a significant distance to cross .....

hans aus dtschl

road_high wrote: »

it's not a huge bottleneck either so I think bypassing Killeigh and Castlemartyr would be much more immediate priority (alos busier too).

I think - and I could be wrong - the problem is that Youghal Bridge nears end of life soon. That is to say that it has not been designed to last beyond a few years from now. Certainly agree with you that capacity isn't a major issue at present.

road_high

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I think - and I could be wrong - the problem is that Youghal Bridge nears end of life soon. That is to say that it has not been designed to last beyond a few years from now. Certainly agree with you that capacity isn't a major issue at present.

It was built in the mid 60s replacing an old iron bridge (you can see the old toll cottage on the Waterford side). I've not heard anything aboout it near end of life or problems with the structure?
Sounds like the planned new bridge follows a path more like the old one. If it ever happens that is!

niloc1951

tonc76 wrote: »

that's a significant distance to cross .....

About 600m HERE

road_high

niloc1951 wrote: »

About 600m HERE

I can't see that happening for decades tbh. I'm sure they'll botch up the existing bridge and keep going!

Chris_5339762

marno21 wrote: »

Could you printscreen or snipping tool it and pop it up then?

Would be great to have if you could.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Akj3GCKQdHarhYNtUDYYbd7e9x0tAw


Onedrive Link to a 6mb PDF. Looks half a land bank grab and half Amgen scheme to me. Looking at the timescales is an embarassment.

Hibernicis

Youghal Bridge is totally off topic in a Middleton to Carrigtwohill thread, but seeing as it has been mentioned.......

The old bridge was in dire condition by the mid 50s. So bad was its state that barrels were placed down the centre to force traffic to weave from side to side in an effort to enforce the 5MPH speed limit (yes, 5MPH). The County Councils responsible started planning a replacement in the early 50s and work commenced in 1960. The bridge was opened on 23rd January 1963 by Donagh O’Malley, then a Parliamentary Secretary (Minister of State) because the Minister for Local Government, Neil Blaney, was indisposed.

This video from the RTE Archives is purest 24 karat gold. It shows the new bridge, the old bridge and the tar barrels.

In this anachronistic video the merits or otherwise of demolishing the old bridge are discussed.

You will see from tonc76's satellite image that the old bridge crossed the Waterford/Cork County boundary. In those pre NRA/TII days, responsibility for national roads fell to the County Council where the road was located. This resulted in anomalies where a stretch of highway came to an abrupt end at the county boundary and it met a boreen on the other side. In the case of a bridge project, where you couldn't have two different authorities each building its own half of the bridge and hopefully meeting in the middle, the convention as that the larger Council (in this case Cork) took responsibility. This resulted in an anomoly because the recommendation was that the best (and cheapest) location for the new bridge was entirely in County Waterford. It took the Waterford crowd years to recover from the ignominy of having CCC build a bridge which was located 100% in County Waterford. And to add insult to injury the main contractor was Murphy Brothers, a Cork based company.

When you look at this you realise how much things actually have improved over the last 50 years.

Not sure where the notion that the current bridge was designed to "expire" in the next few years, sounds pretty unlikely tbh.

hans aus dtschl

Hibernicis wrote: »

Not sure where the notion that the current bridge was designed to "expire" in the next few years, sounds pretty unlikely tbh.

Pretty certain I read it on Boards infra. forum to be honest.
I'm happy to say that I have no further detail than that though - certainly nothing official.

As I said, I don't think I have seen congestion at this point in the route, ever. I'm not there daily but I'm there often enough.

hans aus dtschl

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Akj3GCKQdHarhYNtUDYYbd7e9x0tAw


Onedrive Link to a 6mb PDF. Looks half a land bank grab and half Amgen scheme to me. Looking at the timescales is an embarassment.

Thanks for this.
TWO new junctions/interchanges in this design: they certainly were ambitious!

That's kind of where we were in 2006 wasn't it, it was new roads and development everywhere.

marno21

https://www.n25carrigtohillmidleton.ie/

Website scheme launched. Route options public consultation in Q4 2020.

Chris_5339762

Interesting that their "study area" box goes quite a way to the east of Midleton.

hans aus dtschl

Yep.

And I know we've been through this loads of different times, but for me the biggest problems are East of Midleton, where it's also 100kmh, but there's no overtaking lane, there's a lot of houses and the hard shoulders are quite variable in width/quality. The section West of Midleton is quite well structured by comparison.

To me this just looks like a housing development facilitation effort.

Chris_5339762

Yup, Lakeview roundabout to Youghal is needed far more than this scheme is. I can see this one getting canned in the inevitable post-Covid-cull-of-non-vital-stuff.

Hibernicis

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yup, Lakeview roundabout to Youghal is needed far more than this scheme is. I can see this one getting canned in the inevitable post-Covid-cull-of-non-vital-stuff.

Looks like a sledge hammer to crack a nut. All that palaver and expense for 7 or 8 km of dual carriageway. Can’t see why they don’t just grade separate the 3 or 4 junctions and put Stretches of local road running parallel where required to service the few isolated houses which currently enjoy direct access along the route.

Interesting that this surfaces a few weeks before the Greens decimate the country’s road plans and TII’s road infrastructure remit is limited to filling potholes with spadefuls for tarmac. Pretty typical of TII and CCC in particular.

marno21

Hibernicis wrote: »

Looks like a sledge hammer to crack a nut. All that palaver and expense for 7 or 8 km of dual carriageway. Can’t see why they don’t just grade separate the 3 or 4 junctions and put Stretches of local road running parallel where required to service the few isolated houses which currently enjoy direct access along the route.

That's what they will do. We're at the "assess all options" stage now, which will take 6 months.

It'll end up being a new GSJ, closure of all direct accesses, parallel route for local traffic in certain places and hopefully motorway reclassification.

Hibernicis wrote: »

Interesting that this surfaces a few weeks before the Greens decimate the country’s road plans and TII’s road infrastructure remit is limited to filling potholes with spadefuls for tarmac. Pretty typical of TII and CCC in particular.

This has been in the works since 2019.