Leinster v Ulster Build Up Thread

irishbucsfan

Larbre34 wrote: »

60m? Like 200 ft? Who is that spoofer??

It’s One F

prawnsambo

Larbre34 wrote: »

60m? Like 200 ft? Who is that spoofer??

Not even 60 feet. Where did he think he was? The Bernebeau?

kennedmc

Anybody know where I can watch the BBC NI coverage online please?

I forgot to record it.

Random Bloke

awec wrote: »

I accept reality.

Our team is not as bad as results and performance suggest.

Kiss is hopeless and clueless and should feel free to fcuk off any time soon. As for the idea that he doesn't deserve this sort of message, I'd say catch a grip and look at Ulster's performances and results under his tenure.

Backwards at a rate of knots. He doesn't have a clue.

http://www.the42.ie/jordan-larmour-leinster-ireland-3784641-Jan2018/

The42.ie report of Kiss’ post-match interview highlights that he couldn’t pronounce Larmour’s name (he mustn’t have watched the Munster v Leinster game - anyone who watched that game couldn’t forget his name) and then he says that Stockdale used to be similar to Larmour! Bizarre comments that do not reflect well on his competence.

MJohnston

kennedmc wrote: »

Anybody know where I can watch the BBC NI coverage online please?

I forgot to record it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09m4t4x/ulster-rugby-live-201718-leinster-v-ulster

MJohnston

MJohnston wrote: »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09m4t4x/ulster-rugby-live-201718-leinster-v-ulster

YouTube also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH3XQQnnoB8

Random Bloke

Random Bloke wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/jordan-larmour-leinster-ireland-3784641-Jan2018/

The42.ie report of Kiss’ post-match interview highlights that he couldn’t pronounce Larmour’s name (he mustn’t have watched the Munster v Leinster game - anyone who watched that game couldn’t forget his name) and then he says that Stockdale used to be similar to Larmour! Bizarre comments that do not reflect well on his competence.

Now you are just looking for anything to hold against him. This post is more bizarre than anything I read about in that article. Kiss has to prepare against almost 20 teams a year, he isn't going to be focusing on one player in Leinster. I'm sure there are plenty of lads around the pro14 whose name he would struggle with, as with plenty of others.

And he didn't say Stockdale 'used' to be anything. He pointed out that he went on a run of matches and lit the place up. He's not lamenting the absence of that, just pointing out that we've seen similar before and now Stockdale is an international.

Leo comes off 'worse' if you want to call it that. Doesn't know where he wants to play Larmour and seems to have similar uncertainty over Carbery. Two of his best young talents. Bizarre comments that do not reflect well on his competence? Or just a reflection on the not perfect science of rugby?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Leo comes off 'worse' if you want to call it that. Doesn't know where he wants to play Larmour and seems to have similar uncertainty over Carbery. Two of his best young talents. Bizarre comments that do not reflect well on his competence? Or just a reflection on the not perfect science of rugby?

Or, as is the overwhelming likelihood, him not giving much away to the media.

MJohnston

https://twitter.com/fergmcfadden/status/949983916840103937

I'm aware we all hate Les Kiss and he has to go etc etc but off the top of my head, 4 of the 6 Leinster tries came from just straight up missed tackles. Stockdale missed Larmour, McFadden and Porter, and Piutau missed Daly. This is simple stuff tbh, those guys make their tackles and the tries get prevented. Is Kiss to blame for that?

prawnsambo

Santiago Ashy Caboose wrote: »

I'm aware we all hate Les Kiss and he has to go etc etc but off the top of my head, 4 of the 6 Leinster tries came from just straight up missed tackles. Stockdale missed Larmour, McFadden and Porter, and Piutau missed Daly. This is simple stuff tbh, those guys make their tackles and the tries get prevented. Is Kiss to blame for that?

I'm told by those who've had the misfortune to play against him, that Barry Daly's fend is unbelievably powerful. Charles Piutau only the latest in a long line of defenders to find themselves eating dirt after attempting to tackle him.

awec

Santiago Ashy Caboose wrote: »

I'm aware we all hate Les Kiss and he has to go etc etc but off the top of my head, 4 of the 6 Leinster tries came from just straight up missed tackles. Stockdale missed Larmour, McFadden and Porter, and Piutau missed Daly. This is simple stuff tbh, those guys make their tackles and the tries get prevented. Is Kiss to blame for that?

Yes, he has to take a share of the blame for it.

It is not as simple as saying it’s just down to a missed tackle. These are not anomalous missed tackles that will occur from time to time, they are a pattern that happens every single week.

The defensive system is not working. We drift across the field. Sometimes runners rush out and others don’t creating big holes in the line. We aren’t properly slowing down ball which means the attack is getting the ball faster than our defence sets itself up each phase and players get confused as to who their man is.

All of this contributes to missed tackles.

These guys can all tackle. They’ve shown it before when playing for Ulster, they’re defensively sound when playing for Ireland, Piutau is an All Black ffs, the idea that Ulster players have just randomly forgot how to tackle when wearing a white jersey these past two years is a bit of a stretch. It is pretty obvious the problem is systemic. And guess whose responsibility the system is.

MJohnston

awec wrote: »

And guess whose responsibility the system is.

Gibbes?

awec

MJohnston wrote: »

Gibbes?

It would surely be remarkable if the defensive system at Ulster wasn’t overseen by the much lauded defensive guru and apparent specialist, Mr Kiss.

Piutau missing a simple one-on-one with Daly is nothing to do with the system. You've one attacker and one defender and the defender just failed miserably, same with Stockdale. The players need to take responsibility here.

Santiago Ashy Caboose

Santiago Ashy Caboose wrote: »

I'm aware we all hate Les Kiss and he has to go etc etc but off the top of my head, 4 of the 6 Leinster tries came from just straight up missed tackles. Stockdale missed Larmour, McFadden and Porter, and Piutau missed Daly. This is simple stuff tbh, those guys make their tackles and the tries get prevented. Is Kiss to blame for that?

Of course he is. These guys should be training in an environment where this might happen once in a game.

That said, the only really bad effort was Piatau for the second try and he has a tendency to go missing in defence to be honest, he was guilty of it with Wasps as well at times.

The first try was partially Stockdale's fault but it was a fabulous step to be fair and the 1 on 1 was already conceded in mid field by I think Cave biting in on Ringrose (who could have been pinged for obstruction).

Similarly the third try Stockdale lost his feet (as others did over the night) but where was the fullback in that situation? The ball had gone wide pretty fast but it was still another 1 v 1 for Stockdale and if you watch it back Piatau is on the wrong side and is walking across so is never going to provide cover.

Again the fourth try is a piece of individual excellent from Porter. Cave comes in high for whatever reason on a tighthead which was madness, Stockdale is forced to cover and tries to go low coming in from the side and gets bounced. The major blunder had already happened, not many wingers are going to stop a prop moving at that pace but he could probably have done a bit better.

Fifth try again, Cave sweeping over in the full back slot but where is he when the ball goes wide of Stockdale, totally out of position to cover and get another body in the way and it was so obvious that Leinster had numbers there, what was he doing?

For me Cave's organisational defence and individual effort defensively fell far far short of what you would expect from a 13. Payne alone on the pitch would have halved the Leinster score line.

Similarly Piatau's work rate off the ball is poor and his tackling attempt on Daly was shambolic.

How much of this is Kiss and how much of it is the players is hard to know.

Most of Ulsters problems happened because:

1. Bullied at the breakdown. Leinster scored and made massive ground off turnover ball.

2. Defensive shape. They allowed far too many 1 v 1's with only Stockdale being where he was meant to be.

3. Work rate. Even Stockdale had poor moments, after the kick through for I think the third try, he barely chases back. Pass the buck stuff that isn't good enough at this level.

I've said it before, Kiss may well not be up to it but there is some really poor individual stuff out there.

The pack were to blame for the main woe which was the breakdown and where Leinster did all the damage but the tries were mostly on the back line and Cave
/ Piatau in particular.

The bigger worry to be honest is that Ulster didn't fire a shot going forward. They still had a brilliant back line on the pitch but rarely found much width or shape. Once or twice they looked a bit dangerous but I was never all that concerned. Service from the scrum half was unforgiving which compounded Ulsters inability to get the ball out to the backs accurately and at pace.

There are a lot of issues there. Good bit of it is coaching, good bit is attitude and that is seeping into the players just not operating at the peak of their ability.

The main issue though is a pack that can't impose themselves on the game even for patches. If the pack could raise their game for periods of play to put teams under pressure it would be a different story. Maybe with the likes of Moore and Murphy and Coetzee back available that raised work rate will start delivering patches for Ulster where they can register scores or relieve pressure.

If Ulster do change coach, I'd be going after someone like Conor O'Shea and I'd give them the keys to all the offices to be honest.

MJohnston

awec wrote: »

It would surely be remarkable if the defensive system at Ulster wasn’t overseen by the much lauded defensive guru and apparent specialist, Mr Kiss.

I agree somewhat, but at the same time, this is part of the problem - a Director of Rugby shouldn't be responsible for any coaching at all, they're supposed to be setting an overall coaching philosophy, but the responsibility for actually training players is down to the Head Coach.

It sounds like at Ulster we've let the position become too ill-defined and wishy-washy, and the focus has gone as a result. One of many management structural and personnel problems.

molloyjh

Is it possible that Kiss isn’t actually looking after the defence? It would seem crazy to have him there and not.

.ak

Santiago Ashy Caboose wrote: »

Piutau missing a simple one-on-one with Daly is nothing to do with the system. You've one attacker and one defender and the defender just failed miserably, same with Stockdale. The players need to take responsibility here.

One of the things Andy Farrel said about defence coaching that really resonated with me is it’s his job not to teach players technicalities cuz they already should know how, but to make the players WANT to tackle, to be hungry for a tackle, to enjoy playing without the ball as much they do with it.

I don’t know about the rest of the players here but I naturally enjoy playing with ball in hand than without, tackling sucks, even if you’re good at it, it hurts more making a tackle than it does being dumped on your arse.

You have to find a hunger for it, and a lot of that for me is confidence. Make two good tackles in a row and you’ll look forward to the third. But a lot of that starts on the training ground.

Ulster look like a team not confident in their defensive capabilities right now. And as defence coach that’s Kiss’s fault.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

One of the things Andy Farrel said about defence coaching that really resonated with me is it’s his job to make the players WANT to tackle, to be hungry for a tackle, to enjoy playing without the ball as much they do with it.

I don’t know about the rest of the players here but I naturally enjoy playing with ball in hand than without, tackling sucks, even if you’re good at it, it hurts more making a tackle than it does being dumped on your arse.

You have to find a hunger for it, and a lot of that for me is confidence. Make two good tackles in a row and you’ll look forward to the third. But a lot of that starts on the training ground.

Ulster look like a team not confident in their defensive capabilities right now. And as defence coach that’s Kiss’s fault.

I agree with all of this, as I said above - the environment needs to be there in training where these mistakes don't translate to the pitch.

You would almost wonder with the scale of injuries are they collectively minding themselves in training!

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

Santiago Ashy Caboose wrote: »

I'm aware we all hate Les Kiss and he has to go etc etc but off the top of my head, 4 of the 6 Leinster tries came from just straight up missed tackles. Stockdale missed Larmour, McFadden and Porter, and Piutau missed Daly. This is simple stuff tbh, those guys make their tackles and the tries get prevented. Is Kiss to blame for that?

Of course he is. These guys should be training in an environment where this might happen once in a game.

That said, the only really bad effort was Piatau for the second try and he has a tendency to go missing in defence to be honest, he was guilty of it with Wasps as well at times.

The first try was partially Stockdale's fault but it was a fabulous step to be fair and the 1 on 1 was already conceded in mid field by I think Cave biting in on Ringrose (who could have been pinged for obstruction).

Similarly the third try Stockdale lost his feet (as others did over the night) but where was the fullback in that situation? The ball had gone wide pretty fast but it was still another 1 v 1 for Stockdale and if you watch it back Piatau is on the wrong side and is walking across so is never going to provide cover.

Again the fourth try is a piece of individual excellent from Porter. Cave comes in high for whatever reason on a tighthead which was madness, Stockdale is forced to cover and tries to go low coming in from the side and gets bounced. The major blunder had already happened, not many wingers are going to stop a prop moving at that pace but he could probably have done a bit better.

Fifth try again, Cave sweeping over in the full back slot but where is he when the ball goes wide of Stockdale, totally out of position to cover and get another body in the way and it was so obvious that Leinster had numbers there, what was he doing?

For me Cave's organisational defence and individual effort defensively fell far far short of what you would expect from a 13. Payne alone on the pitch would have halved the Leinster score line.

Similarly Piatau's work rate off the ball is poor and his tackling attempt on Daly was shambolic.

How much of this is Kiss and how much of it is the players is hard to know.

Most of Ulsters problems happened because:

1. Bullied at the breakdown. Leinster scored and made massive ground off turnover ball.

2. Defensive shape. They allowed far too many 1 v 1's with only Stockdale being where he was meant to be.

3. Work rate. Even Stockdale had poor moments, after the kick through for I think the third try, he barely chases back. Pass the buck stuff that isn't good enough at this level.

I've said it before, Kiss may well not be up to it but there is some really poor individual stuff out there.

The pack were to blame for the main woe which was the breakdown and where Leinster did all the damage but the tries were mostly on the back line and Cave
/ Piatau in particular.

The bigger worry to be honest is that Ulster didn't fire a shot going forward. They still had a brilliant back line on the pitch but rarely found much width or shape. Once or twice they looked a bit dangerous but I was never all that concerned. Service from the scrum half was unforgiving which compounded Ulsters inability to get the ball out to the backs accurately and at pace.

There are a lot of issues there. Good bit of it is coaching, good bit is attitude and that is seeping into the players just not operating at the peak of their ability.

The main issue though is a pack that can't impose themselves on the game even for patches. If the pack could raise their game for periods of play to put teams under pressure it would be a different story. Maybe with the likes of Moore and Murphy and Coetzee back available that raised work rate will start delivering patches for Ulster where they can register scores or relieve pressure.

If Ulster do change coach, I'd be going after someone like Conor O'Shea and I'd give them the keys to all the offices to be honest.

Conor O'Shea is a great shout.

MJohnston

molloyjh wrote: »

Is it possible that Kiss isn’t actually looking after the defence? It would seem crazy to have him there and not.

It's a fúcked situation either way - if he is looking after it, then we've got the Director of Rugby priorities wrong. If he isn't looking after it, then arguably he should never have been made DoR.

I seriously don't see the value in a DoR who has to share their time between all the necessary business ****e and actual coaching. It just doesn't work.

I mean, compare Leinster and Ulster - Cullen and Lancaster are the ones that are talked about in terms of being responsible for performances, you don't hear much mention of Easterby even though he's in the exact same position as Kiss.

There's one other comparison, and that's that Leinster have a CEO who used to play.

prawnsambo

MJohnston wrote: »

It's a fúcked situation either way - if he is looking after it, then we've got the Director of Rugby priorities wrong. If he isn't looking after it, then arguably he should never have been made DoR.

I seriously don't see the value in a DoR who has to share their time between all the necessary business ****e and actual coaching. It just doesn't work.

I mean, compare Leinster and Ulster - Cullen and Lancaster are the ones that are talked about in terms of being responsible for performances, you don't hear much mention of Easterby even though he's in the exact same position as Kiss.

There's one other comparison, and that's that Leinster have a CEO who used to play.

Guy Easterby is Team Manager, not DoR.

MJohnston

prawnsambo wrote: »

Guy Easterby is Team Manager, not DoR.

He's head of rugby operations, which sounds like pretty much exactly what a Director of Rugby should be.

Squidgy Black

prawnsambo wrote: »

Guy Easterby is Team Manager, not DoR.

He's Head of Rugby Operations, which is pretty much a different way of say DoR.

What his title is or is meant to be is irrelevant. DoR can mean different things at different teams. Kiss was brought in to be in charge of the rugby team at Ulster, that's his job. If you called him head coach then nothing changes. It is not Easterby's job (to be honest I don't know exactly what Easterby's job is), but you couldn't call him the head coach because he patently isn't the head coach. In fact if you look at the Leinster website, he's not listed as a coach at all.

I'd say Easterby's job is similar to Bryn Cunningham at Ulster if I had to guess.

awec

Santiago Ashy Caboose wrote: »

Piutau missing a simple one-on-one with Daly is nothing to do with the system. You've one attacker and one defender and the defender just failed miserably, same with Stockdale. The players need to take responsibility here.

The Piutau one I agree, that's just a bad missed tackle on his part. That will happen from time to time no matter what the coaches do.

But for Ulster it happens all too often. Many times a match. It all points to there being an underlying problem. The line is broken too often in a match, we have to scramble too much and it leads to mistakes. Players finding gaps that shouldn't exist so defenders have to desperately go for a tackle that they're never making and they miss it.

prawnsambo

MJohnston wrote: »

He's head of rugby operations, which sounds like pretty much exactly what a Director of Rugby should be.

Still sounds like team manager to me. Rugby operations would probably be a better description of what a team manager in old parlance does.

If he was DoR, they'd surely call it that, no? DoR always seems to be a head of coaches role rather than an operational/logistics role.

awec

I don't read too much into the job titles. Kiss is a DoR which just means he's senior to all other coaches.

MJohnston

Santiago Ashy Caboose wrote: »

What his title is or is meant to be is irrelevant. DoR can mean different things at different teams. Kiss was brought in to be in charge of the rugby team at Ulster, that's his job. If you called him head coach then nothing changes. It is not Easterby's job (to be honest I don't know exactly what Easterby's job is), but you couldn't call him the head coach because he patently isn't the head coach. In fact if you look at the Leinster website, he's not listed as a coach at all.

I'd say Easterby's job is similar to Bryn Cunningham at Ulster if I had to guess.

The problem with such an attitude is you lose responsibility and clarity of decision making and it becomes up to the CEO to choose who leads. Which is potentially fine if you have a rugby CEO, but we have a pure businessman.

I have no doubt that our vague and ill defined structure is contributing massively to our ongoing coaching problems, because they aren't new with Kiss.