N17 - Knock to Collooney [design & planning underway]

marno21

Our road ambitions have a very 90s feel about them at the minute. Short bypasses, upgraded single carriageway, piecemeal upgrades etc.

The worst thing about all that is that Mayo in recent years has been a textbook example as to why not to do this. The amount of people killed on upgraded sections of the N5 and N17 in the last 6/7 years is really depressing. What’s worse is planning another 40km upgrade of the N17 in the same manner for demented ideological reasons. We’re trying to correct the mistakes made on the N5 and N17 with all these GSJs and at the same time planning 40km of the same fatally flawed road standard.

Westernview

That's right. The planned improvements between Charlestown and Collooney may lead to an even more dangerous road. If the reason for making the N5 Westport to Turlough Type 2 DC was safety rather than volume then surely the same criteria applies to the N17.

The problem is though - the N5 is a an entirely new route that has eliminated all the direct access from private houses and has also minimised the amount of side road junctions. Can an online upgrade of the N17 achieve the same safety standard regardless of the carriageway type?

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011304#Comment_122011304

2021 figures from RSA said 38% of people involved in fatal incidents tested positive for alcohol intoxication, and in the news this week, RSA were saying that drink- and drug- driving are rising, so no, drink driving isn't something they can divert enforcement away from.

While on one hand younger people seem to be drinking less than previous generations did; on the other, they're actually more likely to drive after drinking.

corm500

This is a result of the thinking of Minister Ryan. He has said on more than one occasion that he is ok with bypasses if absolutely necessary but nothing more.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013486#Comment_122013486

Oh come on. Eamon Ryan isn't making people get in their cars while drunk. Or forcing them to operate their phones while driving, or drive faster than the safe speed (yes, speed does kill.. it turns survivable accidents into fatal ones)

Also, if your look at where accidents are, many are on stretches of road that are in good condition. I saw two over the last few days on N25: both happened in good driving conditions on stretches of road with good alignment and long sightlines. I hope neither caused serious injury, but I couldn't see how the road was a factor in either of them.

cartoncowboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769192#Comment_121769192

I wonder would these bypasses be built to the same standard as to what the entire length should be i.e Type2 DC? So when the entire length is finally done its all the same standard. Or will they do more SC?

Also I cant believe the south Sligo section is being put on the back burner - its absolutely shocking.

KrisW1001

The chosen cross-section depends entirely on forecasted demand. There seems to be this odd misconception that roads have to be the same cross-section for their entire length. It is just not true. Sometimes an intermediate very low traffic section may be built at higher capacity for reasons of continuity (e.g. Type 1 single between two stretches of Type 2 dual, even though traffic volumes would only support Type 2 single), but that's only when the two stretches either side are very busy. N17 doesn't fit this pattern: the further north you go, the quieter it gets.

However, any national primary roads built as SC now are protected from having new entrances added, and will have bridge spans and land-take wide enough to facilitate future conversion to 2+2 if that's needed.

Mullinabreena

The condition of the surface of the N17 from Templehouse to Ballinacarrow is degrading rapidly. It needs attention.

I was driving on the N5 from Frenchpark to Strokestown. Its hard to believe the N17 is 80km/h and this stretch is 100km/h. There are more bends and they're far sharper than the N17. Is it a council decision or NRA to reduce speed limits on National roads?

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024092#Comment_122024092

Until the new bridges you mention are constructed, and therefore eliminating right hand turns, it's difficult to see much of a reduction in roads deaths. The standard SC as it currently stands is not safe by today's standards.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025352#Comment_122025352

Thankfully that section will be bypassed soon. Long overdue.

The existing road will probably then be recategorised as a regional road with a lower speed limit.

marno21

The section from Templehouse to Ballinacarrow has been effectively frozen going by this years allocations.

It’s just Tobercurry and Charlestown bypasses proceeding for now.

Then again, an election isn’t too far away either.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025750#Comment_122025750

Yeah I meant the N5 section. Looks like it will be a long time befor Templehouse to Ballinacarrow is done. Even Charlestown-Tobercurry is going at snails pace.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025772#Comment_122025772

Apologies, I misread.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024092#Comment_122024092

Nothing odd about it at all. Long distance drivers usually pick a speed and stick to it, so they need to be allowed overtaking opportunities even on quiet sections. This is particularly the case for trucks who are mandated to drive at a lower speed than non-truck traffic.

Consistent road standard allows for predictable journey times which has economic and even some social benefits.

As for new SCs having enough land to allow dualling, this rarely happens in practice as you would have to do it entirely for traffic volume reasons (not safety ones) and it would be hard to get through approval for environmental reasons.

KrisW1001

@spacetweek The bridge on the recent N17 Lisduff works was built with a span wide enough for the N17 beneath it to be widened to 2+2 in future.

We agree that dualling will only ever happen for traffic reasons, but the 2+2 is more compatible with environmental goals than a motorway, as the permitted speed does not increase.

As for HGVs, they are speed limited to 80 except on motorways, so whether a road is single or 2+2 shouldn't matter: both types are design limited to 100 km/h. (There are no situations where a road choice would be between Type 1 dual or Type 1 single).

steeler j

Hgvs are 90 on motorway, 80 on national roads . No difference in speed for a truck from single to 2+2 apart from safer and more time reliable

KrisW1001

Yep, and the law says "Motorway", not "road with 120 km/h limit", so on the Western and Eastern approaches to Cork city, which are basically motorways without the blue signs the limit for HGVs is still only 80 km/h

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025352#Comment_122025352

Unfortunately we'll be waiting until after the local elections for even resurfacing works I'd expect. But it's something I'll be bringing up when they doorstep me for certain, the road is an absolute mess.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011304#Comment_122011304

It's an awful pity, the NDP as outlined in 2018 sought to correct many of the deficiencies on long distance interurban roads. The N2, N4, N17 and N24 were to be absolutely transformed by said plan. It's a pity the party of joyless dweebs have it ruined. Hopefully some parts of it can be restarted in the future.

I won't address the drunk driving argument as it's off topic for this thread, but a quick bit of research into enforcement would give large clues as to why road deaths are going in the wrong direction. We don't need new laws, we just need adequate enforcement of existing laws.

blackwhite

Was on the N17 from Sligo to Claremorris two weeks for the first time in approx. 6 months - even in that space of time the deterioration in the surface is very noticeable.