N17 - Knock to Collooney [design & planning underway]

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120777406#Comment_120777406

You might be tired of writing lengthy explanations but you seem to contradict yourself so much that it's difficult to know exactly what points you are making. You had said that there is no way to compare parts of the country and I simply explained that you can by thinking in terms of regions as the EU does. Now you say you agree with positive discrimination towards such areas which suggests that you do recognise that areas can be classified differently in terms of being disadvantaged. That's all I was pointing out.

il gatto

You focussed on Donegal. I was initially speaking about the region which also includes Castlebar, Ballina, Sligo, Carrick-on-Shannon etc. As already stated, an area of half a million people singularly lacking a motorway even approaching them. A look at a map shows that.

Tralee’s population as of the 2016 census was 23,691 people. Sligo town had an estimated 16.5k people in the mid 70s but the town boundaries weren’t moved to encompass newer estates until the late 90s.

Tourism figures for the north west are estimated at 25% of what the south west receives. Spending time in both areas, I believe that’s overly generous. Tourism is massively underdeveloped in the north west. Speaking to people in the industry and tourists themselves, the north west is not marketed with any amount of intent the way Dublin and the south west are. It receives more repeat visitors to Ireland who’ve already done the other places. Usually just British and continental visitors.

You claim other people are looking for an argument when all they’re doing is putting forward a case for improving the infrastructure they have to live with day to day. Yet you’ll dismiss the 2006 figure out of hand because it doesn’t suit your argument. Physician, heal thyself.

https://www.nwra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/region-in-transition-the-way-forward-final.pdf

There’s some actual factual information if you care to read it. It’s not exactly coruscating because that’s not their job. They try to put a positive spin on things. But it’s quite clear that there is a huge regional imbalance on a per capita basis. And it’s also clear that it’s in large part due to the lack of input and that the lack of output is the result.

And the region has fallen further behind since that was published because not it’s no longer a “region in transition” but it’s a “lagging region”.

I’m quite happy not to continue the back and forth because when the actual figures are not enough to convince you, nothing will. Adieu.

serfboard

This argument about no motorway in the North West is bullshít. The N4 from Collooney to Sligo is, while not officially designated a motorway, as good as most motorways in the country. Combine that with the new road from Castlebaldwin, and you have a 100km/h Dual Carriageway all the way from Castlebaldwin to the Summerhill Roundabout, a distance of 24km.

And I say this as someone who agrees that the N17 from Curry to Ballinacarrow is atrocious and needs to be replaced, not by a sub-optimal Single Carriageway, but by a Dual Carriageway. Likewise for the N15 from Sligo to Bundoran.

KrisW1001

There is not one centimetre of Motorway in Co Waterford.

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779224#Comment_120779224

Nitpickingly true, but the N25 Waterford bypass is motorway standard, but just 100kmh and without the blue signs.

il gatto

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779224#Comment_120779224

It goes to Waterford. It stops a few hundred metres from the county line and about 4km from the centre of Waterford city. Nice try 😑😄

il gatto

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779165#Comment_120779165

Complete bullshit apart from being 100% accurate of course. There is a type 1 dual carriageway to Collooney which is a whole 11km long. If you’re going to Galway, that 11km is soon forgotten about when you hit Thornhill Bridge before Ballinacarrow. The recently opened type 2 dual carriageway to Castlebaldwin, while very welcome and long overdue is well short of a motorway. It has no hard shoulder which makes it dangerous to have a breakdown or puncture and is 20kph slower than a motorway. The real issue though, is that it’s a further 110km to an actual motorway with a 30-40 minute delay in Carrick-on-Shannon for good measure.

marno21

There’s a c. 100km gap between Castlebaldwin and Mullingar (with a few km of Dromod Roosky bypass in the middle). That’s what the issue is, not that Sligo has a few km of dual carriageway.

You can bet if there was no motorway between Ballinasloe and Kinnegad there would be calls for a Dublin-Galway motorway notwithstanding the Galway-Ballinasloe section.

The overwhelming issue is that there is long sections of interurban road between Galway and Sligo and Mullingar and Sligo required to bridge the gap. Mickey Mouse sections won’t work, the total for kms planned on the N4 and N17 was 130km before the bike salesman got involved.

The fact is that what Sligo needs is what Eamon Ryan is successfully obstructing.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780520#Comment_120780520

Whether or not ER is obstructing those projects is irrelevant, we will likely go through several MfT before either gets construction funding.

SCC requested funding to apply to ABP in 2028, then you add at least 2 years for approval. A JR could add further time before it has cleared all planning hurdles. Then the wait is on for €600m in construction funding to be made available (possibly close to €1bn by that stage) against many other competing projects, many of which are likely to have a stronger Business Case.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778160#Comment_120778160

I'm afraid I must have misunderstood your point completely, my apologies.

Your point that the european regional analysis shows that the Northwest is disadvantaged, makes perfect sense. And I fully agree with positive discrimination towards it.

But in terms of my point, which was that it's not easy to directly compare regions, the North-west region is chosen by the EU as purely a geographical construct. It doesn't have much similarities with the other regions. I'd go out on a limb and say that no two regions are directly comparable on almost any metric other than size (and they use GDP too, but that's a really bad metric for lots of reasons).

Specifically using the EU analysis, the "Northern and Western" region has a little over half the population of the "Southern" region. Their Southern region covers Limerick, Cork, Waterford and large chunks of Leinster which would generally align with Dublin. Their Northern and Western region has just Galway. It couldn't possibly compete economically. Aside from having fewer cities, the distance to the European mainland, the political border right through the centre of it, there's so many reasons that the Northern and Western region will be behind. Including historical reasons.

I don't think we're in any real disagreement anyway to be honest.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781419#Comment_120781419

It's not about the Northwest. It's possibly also not about the Greens. Nothing's moving.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778651#Comment_120778651

I didn't bring up Donegal at all? You did.

Listen, I'm happy to discuss with you but you seem to be taking extreme exception to something I didn't write and that I don't think.

What I'm saying, just to reiterate, is that the lack of infrastructure progress is not a localised issue. That's it. That's all I was saying. Lots of people then came in to compare different areas but it doesn't change the fact that projects all over the country are badly stalled right now. The system's dysfunctional.

timmyntc

In absolute terms, there is as much or more stalled projects in south as they are in northwest.

In % terms, the amount of infrastructure stalled or shelved in the northwest compared to southwest is staggering in comparison.

Reality is that this project has once again been put on the long finger by a transport minister who doesnt agree with roads, and a govt who have no electoral incentive to invest in the NW region. 500 smackers to a charity of your choice if this breaks ground in the next decade

il gatto

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120786557#Comment_120786557

I only mentioned Donegal in relation to a county of comparable population. You started making erroneous comparisons to west cork which is still much better served than Donegal with infrastructure. Parts of Donegal are 4hrs away from motorway and 3.5hrs if they leave the jurisdiction.

The issue is not just the stalled projects. The issue is the fact that there were so few projects completed over the past few decades.

The fact that not a single motorway serves a vast part of the country is damning. It’s also no coincidence that the same part of the country has been downgraded twice by the EU over the time period that other regions have had their own infrastructure vastly improved.

So yes, there may be stalled projects everywhere. But not everywhere is in the same dire need for those projects to happen.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791993#Comment_120791993

Well, look, your last paragraph there should suffice as far as I'm concerned. There are stalled projects everywhere and the Northwest is probably the spot with the least completed modern infrastructure. I think we can all agree on that.

il gatto

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797390#Comment_120797390

It’s thread specifically about the N17 and the long mooted overdue upgrading it requires. I hardly think we’re required to speak in vague generalities when the thread is so specific in it’s subject matter?

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120815948#Comment_120815948

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I was trying to find ways to agree with you but it seems that's not on the agenda so I'm bowing out now rather than derailing the thread even further.

il gatto

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120816670#Comment_120816670

No. You’re trying to find a way to dismiss what I’m saying with straw men and false equivalences. I’m just pointing out what the thread is about.

il gatto

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817543#Comment_120817543

You’re not the boss of me 😬

il gatto

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120826389#Comment_120826389

Has it ever been said and not been in jest? I doubt it. And I’ve already cleaned my room so you can’t ground me 😉

Mullinabreena

I notice the road where the old N5 links to the new N5 east of Charlestown there is planning notice for wind turbines. This peice of Public owned land was originally thought to be where the N17 would by pass Charlestown

https://maps.app.goo.gl/VYt1SmDU4qq2DD418

DumbBrunette

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2023/10/04/fund-the-n17-now-sligo-chamber-and-ireland-west-airport-in-joint-call/

Will it ever be built with Eamon Ryan in charge?

Westernview

Not in the foreseeable future it seems.

Westernview

TII applying pressure on Eamon Ryan to avoid letting road projects becoming 'stop-start' in order to prevent road deaths. A list of 18 roads was provided to him including the N17. 3 fatalities and 6 serious injuries predicted for the next 5 years on the northern stretch of the N17 based on statistics.

N4 Mullingar to Longford is another road listed as high risk.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/transport-chiefs-predict-77-deaths-unless-these-18-stretches-of-road-nationwide-are-upgraded/a1836048566.html

godskitchen

Very interesting, any idea of the stats if the road was of a modern standard?

KrisW1001

Not zero, of course, but significantly lower.

I'm actually in favour of the green principle of not building extra road capacity unless all other transport options have been exhausted, because frankly, building road lanes to meet traffic demand has been shown over and over again to be a hiding to nothing. But: the problems we still have in this country, across a lot of the network are not ones of capacity, but safety.

There is no valid environmental argument against replacing an unsafe road with a safe one of the same capacity, as is proposed here. The argument is pretty straightforward: even if we could abandon private cars (an irrational pipe-dream in itself), we still need roads, so on what basis can we knowingly allow those roads to remain dangerous when we have the ability to make them safer?

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121203919#Comment_121203919

The N17 Knock-Collooney plan is to facilitate conversion to DC though right? This is a capacity upgrade. I'm not against improving the roads to make them safer but perhaps the business case for DC is poor.

DumbBrunette

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121214803#Comment_121214803

I don't think the cross section has been officially determined, but I'll eat my hat if it's DC. I'd imagine any bridges will be designed to facilitate future upgrade to DC though. Same was done recently with the new overbridge at Claremorris.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121214803#Comment_121214803

Future conversion to DC was mentioned previously alright. Seems sensible to me to put in wider bridges to facilitate DC upgrades in future given projected population increases etc. If it turns out that a DC won't be needed then it can be left as single carriageway. But the town bypasses and safety improvements are needed regardless.

betistuc

All National road replacment should be to a minimum of DC standard. and would save a fortune in the long run.This minimilist attitude has to cease. Populations are always going to increase. Build it right the first time and you don't have to worry about it any more.