European Chemicals Agency (Lead shot ban)

breakemall

I know it is an old chestnut by now, but I am a little surprised that there has been no mention of the ECH/EU proposals regarding a restriction/ban on the use of lead shot on wetlands within three years of the proposal coming into force.

And looking at the NARGC web site the number of views of the ECH proposals and the NARGC response is only in double digits.

As all of Ireland is a "wetland" under the proposed definition and it will appear to be a proposed offence to even have lead ammo in your possession, much less use it in such areas, then all shooting as we know it is facing a change from which it might never recover?

This was a hot topic a few years ago but the Irish Government lost interest in it and it was put on the back burner, but now it is the EU running with the ball and parish politics will hold no sway. Tough days ahead...

breakemall

I have made some enquiries and it looks like the ban on lead in wetlands is a done deal in Europe and it is a case of local damage limitation at this stage.

The hope I suppose is that there can be some limited derogation because most of the country could technically be a wetland and a ban would impact on ALL shooting whether it be live quarry or clay targets.

Our shooting organisations will have a busy time in the weeks and months ahead but with European elections next year it will be down to individual shooters to do their bit also?

I have to say I am surprised that no one has commented on the proposals here, or maybe I am the only one who does not fancy having to use steel shot with all its limitations and failings?

Off to shoot some lead now... while I still can!

Cass

Not hunting related, and even less so to us as it's about reloading, but on the topic of EU interference i have seen a load of lads in the UK and across Europe desperately seeking out certain types of propellant and all, in their words, "before the ban". So it got me curious and i done some searching.

Seems the EU, in its ever increasing role of dominance over every aspect of our lives, has seen fit to ban certain chemicals that are vital components in the manufacture of some propellants. In short it means that certain types of propellants used for reloading are now banned in Europe. If the manufacturer wants to sell their wear in the European market they must alter the make up of the propellant which obviously changes the propellant and can no longer be called what it was.

Its all been done under the REACH program. Now some propellants are already compliant, but it is hitting others hard. Such as Hodgdon as it includes Varget, Benchmark, BLC2, H1000, H322, H335, H380, H414, H4198, H4350, H4831, H4831SC, H4895, H50BMG, LEVERevolution, Superformance, US869, Hybrid100V, Trail Boss and Retumbo.

So when you add up the constant attack on private gun ownership over the years with the ban on the ammo/components of ammo such as lead shot and the propellants used it seems the EU are steadily making progress into banning the various aspects of the sport without the glaringly obvious full frontal attack they normally use that has failed in the past.

Zxthinger

I never had any he pleasure of knowing any of them.. and now they're gone.

Grizzly 45

Good summation of the situation at the moment....Hope you all did put in a critique about this proposal??

This also WHY Ireland and shooters in the rest of the EU need proper representation and an early warning system in Brussels. You cannot rely on FACE, considering they only want to deal with hunters, were asleep to their own members almost losing their hunting semi-autos, and didn't respond until about 6 weeks after the first proposed EU gun ban..
Again this isn't a done deal, just yet, but ye need to get off backsides and start making a lot of noise again with NARGC/FACE reps and your MEPs if you don't want to lose a lot of hunting in Ireland, as well as target shooting...Looking at you .22 shooters on this as well..As Ireland is probably 75/80% "wetland" under these proposals, ye had better get writing and phoning.

https://www.gunsweek.com/en/current/news/lead-ammo-ban-eu-it-again

cavan shooter

I know the lads in Cavan put in a separate submission so I'd assume the other RGC did so too.

The fact they want this ban implemented within 36 months is scary, I'd hate to be trying to sell a non steel proofed shotgun at the minute, With a stroke of a pen they are now worthless. You won' hear the Sports Coalition crying foul on this primarily because it plays into the hands of their firearm dealer member.

gunny123

Death by 1,000 cuts.

cavan shooter

It's wearysome..and unfortunately I think it's a strategy to beat us down and make us give up.

Grizzly 45

Illegitimi non carborundum [Don't let the bastards grind you down]:)

Grizzly 45

cavan shooter wrote: »

I know the lads in Cavan put in a separate submission so I'd assume the other RGC did so too.

The fact they want this ban implemented within 36 months is scary, I'd hate to be trying to sell a non steel proofed shotgun at the minute, With a stroke of a pen they are now worthless. You won' hear the Sports Coalition crying foul on this primarily because it plays into the hands of their firearm dealer member.

Never assume anything in this country...Especially when it comes to people pulling their weight.Again this is something people should be asking of the SC...whats their position on this and what representation have they made to our MEPS? You want the power and the glory SC?...Go and earn the title that you are "repersenting" Irish shooters...

cavan shooter

They are a lobbying organisation that's all it says so on their website. They lobby the PTB so that their vested interests are best served.

They used every opportunity to duck us over I would not be surprised if we don't read a statement where they agree with the lead ban and urge the government to push it through. In doing so we end up having to buy new guns from firearm dealers same way we would have to do training courses in "certain" ranges if we didn't see it coming and start screaming.

Grizzly 45

Ultimately, the expression of " The price of liberty is eternal vigilance," is with us is, "The price of gun ownership in Ireland, is eternal vigilance of the PTB , the AGS, vocal groups in Irish politics, and Brussels".Pity we have to include "and of our own shooting organisations as well.":(

breakemall

I know that in my own county RGC at least, the powers that be appeared to have no knowledge of the proposals until I raised it at club level. So fair dues to Cavan for making a submission before the horse bolted.

It would be interesting to see copies of all the submissions that were made from Ireland posted in one place, so that we could get an idea of what arguments are being put forward and who is saying what on our behalf?

Even if your gun is fit to shoot steel, if it is an expensive model will you want to risk the barrels because it is often the case that the dearer the gun the thinner the walls? Not to mention the additional wear and tear on suitable barrels?

Plus as well as the poor kinetic performance of steel shot on quarry you will effectively be limited to quarter choke because of the effect of "shot bounce" and ballistic variation with any constriction above that?

While my interest is primarily in game and wildfowl shooting, the affect of the loss of choke will also impact on those who shoot clays and will hit the trap disciplines hardest?

What about those who shoot smaller calibers whether through choice or necessity due to age, size, infirmity etc.? In New Zealand the lead shot ban applied to 12 bore and larger, so maybe that is something we could look for here also?

The change will also make the dental industry happy because when you chomp on a piece of lead shot while currently eating game it is softer than the tooth enamel so no damage is done, but with steel it will be the tooth that comes out in second place. And what happens if you give someone a brace of birds and they crack a tooth, who will be liable for the repairs and will our insurance/compensation fund see it as a "shooting" accident akin to a gun dog being hit by a car?

Because this is coming from Brussels rather than Dublin, local influence will be only a small factor but it will be a factor none the less (if we are lucky)? The challenges faced by our sport in recent years fail in comparison and are potentially nothing compared to this proposal. Internal politics and infighting may be our undoing, but I would hope not or future shooters will not thank us?

cavan shooter

The fact Ireland has never even hinted at a proper ban on lead shot over the years is a sure sign that they have no interest in doing anything about it until they are forced kicking and screaming. What upsets me it is the fact that when that happens, it will be ill thought out and knee jerk. The propsale wants it done and dusted in 3 years.
We even have proposals that it will be an offence to be in possession of a lead shot cartridge with muted fines of around €1250 and or 6 months in prison, and chatting to a dealer the weekend he reckons most guns since 2006 are steel proved, he wouldn't recommend putting steel through anything older.

I wonder why the Sports Coalition of vested interests are pushing for a proof house in this country.????? Answers on a post card..

While most of the gun clubs have probably did nothing on this we have had Bird watch Ireland encouraging that the ban goes ahead, . I can give out about our County lads but they do have the finger on the pulse be it writing to Ministers etc..but friends of mine down in Laois haven't heard about dickie bird on it. Yet this has the potential to destroy not only game shooting but Flapper shoots and clubs using a big for a few clay shoots every year.

meathstevie

I wonder what's going to happen to the probably thousands of acres of sheet lead used on roofs all over Ireland. A fair bit of lead particles must get into the water cycle from that source as well. Or am I cynical if I think this has more to do with nibbling away at legal gun ownership than what it has to do with any environmental concern ?

I've made the point before and I will again. It would be of far greater benefit to the environment to do away with plastic cartridge cases and plastic wads.

Cass

Possibly a silly question and possibly covered but as i'm too lazy to check maybe someone can answer for me.

Does this include or will it include rifle rounds? They are lead core or lead bullets with copper jackets. Whatever about using steel shot in a smooth bore barrel how does steel shot work in a rifle barrel? Not so much a concern for large caliber that have cores as opposed to rimfires that use complete lead bullets.

Other than the external ballistic effects of steel the wear, tear, damage, effect on a rifled barrel could have serious implications if this ban goes onto or already includes rifle ammo.

cavan shooter

Cass wrote: »

Possibly a silly question and possibly covered but as i'm too lazy to check maybe someone can answer for me.

Does this include or will it include rifle rounds? They are lead core or lead bullets with copper jackets. Whatever about using steel shot in a smooth bore barrel how does steel shot work in a rifle barrel? Not so much a concern for large caliber that have cores as opposed to rimfires that use complete lead bullets.

Other than the external ballistic effects of steel the wear, tear, damage, effect on a rifled barrel could have serious implications if this ban goes onto or already includes rifle ammo.

Yes...all lead bullets there is an exemption for Military and Police.

cavan shooter

I got a read of the Cavan RGC submission and they make some good points. Most of the lead in our streams and rivers are from surface run off, lead in Petrol, industry use etc.

They made a good comment on the fact that the UK have said enough no further and Norway and I think Austria are reversing the ban. I am of the view it is a way of making firearm ownership so onnerous that we give up. As mentioned above the army and pol u ce are exempted from complYong. ...so remind me again how serious is the problem.

Grizzly 45

Come down to Condition Orange lads....
I got this from a German website[Waffen lobby] who asked FACE about this and this is FACE's abbreviated reply

Quote]
From what I understand, your query below relates the recent amendment to entries 28-30 of Annex VII to add lead (metal) to the list of substances to be restricted for supply to consumers (general public): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/…; (see point 1). This will apply from 1 March 2018. The concentration limit of 0.3% is the generic concentration limit for category 1a ‘reproductive toxicant’ substances. Nothing related to lead ammunition…[/Quote]

Enc this is the document for those interested in whats being restricted. Hostile intent isn't obvious..But lets still keep an eye on it.[As these sneaky fukers are now trying something on again with Deacts apparently.]

grassroot1

breakemall wrote: »

I know that in my own county RGC at least, the powers that be appeared to have no knowledge of the proposals until I raised it at club level. So fair dues to Cavan for making a submission before the horse bolted.

What county RGC was it that hadn't heard about the lead ban?

ayagerard

HOME / CURRENT / LAW REGULATIONS / LEAD AMMO BAN: THE EU IS AT IT AGAIN!
worth a read this one, you must admit but it is the cream of the crop we have sent to Europe well we didn't want them here, and vandeemonds land isn't far enough away any more ,they keep coming back with better ideas,
do it for the birds , i honestly think they are for the birds not for there welfare tho ???, no mention of all the run off through lead valleys on roofs, water running through lead pipes, o yes they are still there we cant afford to fix them ,how many hunters have come across animals with lead bullets lodged under the skin in ribs shoulders and the likes with no adverse side effects no infections and totally healed over ,dont die of lead poisoning, have the do gooders researched the effects of steel shot and bullets on game and foul will the swans geese and ducks live any longer with the few rusty pellets they ingest from the bottom of the ponds, blood, salt, and steel ,was never a good combination in the past and wont be in the future, full metal vs expanding ,what will the NPWS have to say, it would also be ironic if a proof house got the go ahead in this country if this ( ban ) was imminent????? there is only one way it would turn out disaster , china aint buying scrap metal africa does not need them, where does that leave a 2000 euro sidelock that you are not allowed have lead ammo for, are you going to pay some one to put a bulge in a barrel hand it back and say it didn't pass, i honestly think there should be a law against these mutton heads trying to implement these bans with out first putting forward creditable alternatives that would be better or at least as good as lead , humane effective and efficient, too much to ask for i know , one nut suggested gold and was adamant in his suggestion ,i think there is only one way you would get value for that ounce

Walter Mittys Brother

It really is time for #Irexit :mad:

meathstevie

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

It really is time for #Irexit :mad:

No, it's time for the EU to return to it's origins: continent wide food security, integration of the regional powers' strategic industries to prevent another edition of the calamities of WWI and II, provision, provision of a framework for member states to settle their disputes diplomatically.

Walter Mittys Brother

meathstevie wrote: »

No, it's time for the EU to return to it's origins: continent wide food security, integration of the regional powers' strategic industries to prevent another edition of the calamities of WWI and II, provision, provision of a framework for member states to settle their disputes diplomatically.

The original concept was sound alright.

As for the stuff you've listed it has failed miserably on all counts so far.

breakemall

grassroot1 wrote: »

What county RGC was it that hadn't heard about the lead ban?

Galway. Spoke to the Chairman but he only came in to the job late in the year, so maybe he was not briefed on the impending ban in the hand over?

cavan shooter

If we hear something g we all need to be ringing our Clubs and RGCS and asking did they hear. We then need to be asking, what are you doung about it, and importantly what do you want me to do about it. Not everybody is as tuned on for whatever reason, I wouldn't be quick to blame but I get very annoyed when lads hold back something just to make a nut of ye at say a club meeting.

ligertigon

Might I suggest opening ranges in Navan, particularly Tara.

As a natural lead/Zinc mine, pollution by lead is moot

ligertigon

No shortage of non lead ammo to be honest.

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certified

Grizzly 45

Likewise the Silvermines in Tipp.

Grizzly 45

ligertigon wrote: »

No shortage of non lead ammo to be honest.

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certified

Yeah,rifle bullets or shotgun slugs, nothing about shotgun pellets.Plus they still have lead in them[going by the Remington arms pdf] of 1% or less lead.

California as well, they are just nuts anyway when it comes to lead in any shape or form...:rolleyes:

Capercaillie

http://www.countryside-alliance.org/ie/file/PROTECTING_WATERFOWL_FROM_LEAD_IN_WETLANDS_-_NIEA.pdf
Interesting article from N. Ireland. Republic of Ireland is years behind other EU Countries in banning lead shot.

cavan shooter

A the American Trap Association in there rule book have the following statement.

"Any gun club allowing shot materials other than lead, shall be required to cover or shield all hard surfaces on trap fields which are known, or reasonably believed, to cause pellet ricochet with material
which will prevent the shot pellets from rebounding and/or ricocheting"

I have a friend in the states who tells me where clubs are forced to use steel, then for insurance purposes they can't have tree's palletts etc in the vicinity he knows one club that won't allow a rabbit or low snipe in a sporting set up.

In fairness he also told me that one club he knows of harvests the lead shot. It falls on a bank covered in a Geotextile and roles into a gutter.

cavan shooter

Capercaillie wrote: »

http://www.countryside-alliance.org/ie/file/PROTECTING_WATERFOWL_FROM_LEAD_IN_WETLANDS_-_NIEA.pdf
Interesting article from N. Ireland. Republic of Ireland is years behind other EU Countries in banning lead shot.

Yet at the same time Norway has repealed the ban

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/lead_shot_ban_vote_norway-42462

cavan shooter

And by the looks of it so is Austria

http://www.ishootmag.com/features/news/austria-takes-the-lead-on-lead-shot/

To paraphrase I also believe that something is rotten in the state of Denmark. They seem not to like Bismuth.

grassroot1

Capercaillie wrote: »

http://www.countryside-alliance.org/ie/file/PROTECTING_WATERFOWL_FROM_LEAD_IN_WETLANDS_-_NIEA.pdf
Interesting article from N. Ireland. Republic of Ireland is years behind other EU Countries in banning lead shot.

Or way ahead in not introducing a ban at all. Depends on your opinion I suppose.

breakemall

This is the debate that should have been taking place in the months during which a submission could have been made?

I wonder if anyone included what has happened in Norway and Austria in their submission (all be it that Norway will be retaining the ban in wetlands) and never forget that it is always better easier never to have had a ban than have to try and reverse one.

The fact is that steel shot is so far inferior to lead that if shooting was a new sport being proposed and steel was the only option for ammunition, it would probably be banned because the steel shot was dangerous to the user and inhumane to the quarry.

But perhaps most important of all the impact that steel shot has on the environment is an unknown? Lead degrades at a rate of 1% per year so the release of what is after all a naturally occurring metal, is gradual over centuries. I recall a seminar I attended where there was a presentation detailing an incident when the rain water run off from a clay target shooting ground in Germany had been tested (in the hope by local government that they could shut the ground down) only for the water to be assigned the status of drinking quality!!!

On the other hand steel oxidises rapidly, so all the shot is released into the environment within 12-18 months of deposit. And the impact of this will be? And steel shot if ingested by wildfowl or used as grit will do them no harm? And if lead shot is so bad, where are all the slowly dying wildfowl we should be falling over when out shooting? The only lead I have seen kill wildfowl was delivered at 330m per second!

Regarding the comments on the use of steel shot in clay shooting in the USA, it should also be noted that steel can ricochet off the targets themselves as well as the trap houses, angle markers, random stones, trees etc. Plus steel when it ricochets does not always deflect at an angle as happens with lead, but can follow the path it initially took. So the fact is that if your shot hits something hard it can come straight back and hit you.

And what happens on the days you are shooting in the rain (a common enough occurrence in Ireland...) and the moisture makes its way into the cartridges in your pocket? Or even just the moisture in the air makes its way into the crimp over time (and then for the ammo to sit in storage between seasons). How long will it take for the steel (or soft iron to be more correct) to rust and turn 28-32-36g of individual pieces of small shot into a single large projectile? What would this do to your barrel, or more importantly how far will it fly?

All of this should have been discussed last year, but was it? I have now been told that there was a couple of articles in the Irish Shooters Digest from the NARGC flagging the issue, but those of us who do not/did not read that publication missed out on these.

It was then left to our county RGC's and/or clubs to highlight the danger and perhaps seek assistance from the members in making a submission? I know in my case that did not happen, and the first I knew of it (or my club and county officials?) was when I noticed the posts on the NARGC web site AFTER THE DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSIONS!

Crying and spilled milk comes to mind, and while the horse may have bolted and the stable door closed it might still not be too late to fight our case. But how? An internal blame game will help no one, and allowing the local politics of our sport to use this as yet another cause for sniping at one another is not the answer either. We never needed a united voice more than now, but we have never been more fragmented?

Grizzly 45

Follow your chain of command. ..Who represents Irish hunters that are affiliated to NARGC in the EU? FACE... So your options are now to demand that your individual concerns are voiced with FACE and Brussels via your reps.

Or find out every MEP in the EU and mass email them on an individual basis.Our own Mariam Harkin MEP was very helpful in this with the proposed EU SA gun ban.

Or bypass the squabbling and infighting Irish organisations and talk to people who have a direct link into Brussels, are a registered lobbying group,all volunteers,who don't get a red cent for their work,while holding down day jobs or suffering from cancer and chemotherapy treatment and have done more than the established shooting organisations in Brussels in stopping the proposed EU firearms ban of last year.Or at least neutering it as much as possible. They are called Firearms United.com
And yes they have been keeping an eye on this since it started, and don't worry lads, most of the EU hunter and shooter groups on national levels have done the heavy lifting already for us, while our organisations have been engaged in appendage measuring exercises.