Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

ixus

Pienar, Jackson, Olding, Payne, Bowe & Piutau in such a short period. That is some loss.

mfceiling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Northern Ireland's rape/sexual offences prosecution rates lag massively behind the rest of the UK, and conviction rates lag even further behind.

This has been raised in the NI Assembly e.g. https://www.theyworkforyou.com/ni/?id=2016-10-17.6.16

In England and Wales there has been a concerted effort to increase prosecution (and consequently conviction) rates on VAWG offences. If there was a recommendation of not to prosecute by the PSNI, I wouldn't take that as evidence of anything. The PSNI seem to make a habit of recommending no prosecution, with the PPSNI frequently not bothering to prosecute even if they received a recommendation to prosecute from the PSNI

Yesterday's Sunday Times.

In the magazine section is an article about men being falsely accused of rape in England.

"Where once the police and criminal justice system were criticised for their treatment of alleged victims - often not believing their stories or subjecting women to heavy handed cross examinations about what they had been drinking, how they dressed and previous relationships - now the pendulum has swung the other way.
When Saunders became head of the CPS in 2013, she promoted a focus on female victims. In rape cases where the complainant is known to have been drunk, Saunders put the onus on men to prove explicit consent. She advised prosecutors to examine alleged rapists previous sexual behaviour and encouraged women to seek advice from a rape counsellor if they woke up in a man's bed with no memory of the previous night".

Mary Aspinall - Miles the barrister suggests pressure on prosecutors is exacerbated by the emotive nature of sexual assaults, impassioned commentary on social media and a repeated myth that conviction rates in reported rape cases is only 6%. In fact, once rape cases reach court, nearly 60% result in convictions.

Angela Rafferty QC, chairwoman of the Criminal Bar Association has warned that the police and CPS may show unconscious bias in cases of sexual assault. She worries about "sexual - offence cases where complainants are labelled victims before a trial has started".




Well worth buying the paper to read this article.

b.gud

Deleted User wrote: »

Munster need a 10, Connacht would fall over themselves for a half the quality of Jackson and I reckon he'd be starting half at 4 or 5 Prem teams.

He maybe radioactive at this point. Who knows, but there aren't a shortage of suitors.

With regard to Munster and Connacht I assume the fact that the IRFU have already let him go means there is less than 0 chance that he will end up at either club.

b.gud

b.gud wrote: »

With regard to Munster and Connacht I assume the fact that the IRFU have already let him go means there is less than 0 chance that he will end up at either club.

I was more making the point that there are loads of clubs that would happily sign them bar the baggage.

Former Former

Asus X540L wrote: »

What was Paddy Jackson's contact worth? 600k?

His Ulster contract? I'd say 350k or thereabouts.

MJohnston

awec wrote: »

MJohnston wrote: »

My point of view is that I think them being moved on from Ulster and Ireland was the correct choice for everyone, and that Ulster Rugby needs to move on and get on with appointing a new DoR.

URSC, and McBride representing them, have been either naively or ignorantly pushing for the two players to return with the presumption that this was what their entire supporter base wanted, and are only now stopping to ask what people think. I doubt they'll get anything other than C/D/E responses now that they've essentially alienated anyone who might have been in URSC that was of the A/B opinion.

Their position as "Official Supporters Club" also gives them a perceived public standing as representatives of Ulster fans in general, and I'm pretty angry that they felt like getting involved with this was acceptable or indeed welcome.

The URSC is the only properly organised body representing any section of the Ulster support so it would be pretty bizarre if they didn't have an opinion on these events.

As for alienating people, I call nonsense on that. The only statement they have made is to distance themselves from the "concerned fans" bollocks in the paper.

They are balloting their membership, who knows what the outcome will be? I can guess, based on reaction on their facebook page and the official ulster facebook page and the official ulster twitter that it'll not be the response you are hoping for.

Not really sure why you'd get angry about it. Is it because they might put forward a view that is different to yours?

You call nonsense on that do you? They've alienated me, and I was a former Ulster Rugby member (not a URSC member mind you), and Willie J McBride was most certainly speaking on behalf of URSC when he called for their reinstatement. I don't know what else you need for some people to feel alienated? I'd suggest that as a mod you should be more empathetic to differing viewpoints on this issue than you have demonstrated so far in this thread, I don't like how you've been dismissive of anyone who didn't want to see them return to play for Ulster.

prawnsambo

ClanofLams wrote: »

Think it’s safe to say he won’t be showing up at another province.

Would think he will get picked up, he’s too good a player not to but if I was him/Olding I would be a bit concerned to see clubs proactively denying links. Clubs issuing statements to specifically rule out players is so unusual I can’t remember the last time it happened.

French clubs seem to do it most. I remember Toulon denying that POC was moving there when it was first mooted.

awec

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-43784682

"The chief executive of Ulster Rugby said he cannot envisage Paddy Jackson or Stuart Olding playing for Ulster or Ireland again."

Logan finally crawls out from under his rock.

"Mr Logan also said that "fractures" have occurred among volunteers, players and clubs as a result of the players' dismissal and that his job was to ensure that there was "an opportunity to unite". "

Good luck with that. Interesting to see a public admittance that there are disagreements among the players and the volunteers at Ulster.

launish116

Dubinusa wrote: »

Looking over the Ulster squad and reading launish16's analysis, it really is piss poor for a starting point.
The academy players will be used more frequently now, and imo, that's a good thing. Sink or swim. Could be a gem in there, or 2. Obviously the oh position is key, so they will probably address that 1st. The lh should also be addressed  quickly as that is one of the major problems with Ulster. Very little quality at loose head. Still think Coulson is worth a shot.
I'd love to see Flanagan come back from Sarries. Not a star but was good for Munster. Dalton is a very good prospect and probably will be signed to a contract in the next year. Regan needs to step up and I think he is another decent prospect.  He was very good for the u20's last year. I thought he was as good as Dowling.
Amazing, Ulsters backline ie thin!! Never thought I'd say that. Not sure if there's anybody out of contract on the island that can step in, although they could look to snatch someone from another academy C.O.B? Jack Kelly? Or Shane Daly. Interesting off season coming up.

Academy - Definitely a lot of potential coming through. I just worry with the sink or swim approach, hasn't helped Ulster in the past. Need gradual and controlled integration. 
Outhalf - really think we need a mentor more than a game changer. With McPhilips and Lowry there to take knowledge on board.
Coulson - Also thought he was a good shout. Then i was informed about controversy in France and can't see Ulster going that direction especially now.
Deegan - Don't know to much about him or seen him play. We really could do with some 2nd row's coming through! Dalton is big aggressive/mobile/explosive, but raw and I do wonder is he more suited blindside.
Backline - is some shock when you consider last year and by end of this season we've lost almost a full international backline.

awec

awec wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-43784682

"The chief executive of Ulster Rugby said he cannot envisage Paddy Jackson or Stuart Olding playing for Ulster or Ireland again."

Logan finally crawls out from under his rock.

"Mr Logan also said that "fractures" have occurred among volunteers, players and clubs as a result of the players' dismissal and that his job was to ensure that there was "an opportunity to unite". "

Good luck with that. Interesting to see a public admittance that there are disagreements among the players and the volunteers at Ulster.

Let's be realistic. If Ulster rugby are broken into fragments the club is fcuked plain and simple.

Finding an acceptable compromise is optimal, finding a consensus forward is in the interest of everyone who wants Ulster rugby to succeed.

irishbucsfan

Not sure what else Logan was expected to say really.

He's definitely been a bit of an invisible man, perhaps the backlash over the coaching catastrophe rattled him a bit.

Asus X540L

Former Former wrote: »

His Ulster contract? I'd say 350k or thereabouts.

Tax and legal fees he won't see much change from that.
Depends on if he gets his legal fees back off the prosecution.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-43784682

"The chief executive of Ulster Rugby said he cannot envisage Paddy Jackson or Stuart Olding playing for Ulster or Ireland again."

Logan finally crawls out from under his rock.

"Mr Logan also said that "fractures" have occurred among volunteers, players and clubs as a result of the players' dismissal and that his job was to ensure that there was "an opportunity to unite". "

Good luck with that. Interesting to see a public admittance that there are disagreements among the players and the volunteers at Ulster.

To be fair, that's a very honest and fortright statement. No bullcrap and a recognition of the issues that face Ulster Rugby.

Either way there would have been fractures. Only time will heal them.

prawnsambo

Asus X540L wrote: »

Tax and legal fees he won't see much change from that.
Depends on if he gets his legal fees back off the prosecution.

This wasn't a civil case. Your costs are your own.

launish116

Logan looked shocked there when asked should he step down on UTV news.

Asus X540L

prawnsambo wrote: »

This wasn't a civil case. Your costs are your own.

I read he's applied to get his costs back

bilston

Someone on Twitter defending the sacking of Paddy Jackson on Twitter because of his attitude towards women via whatsapp

Someone responded...what did he say about women on WhatsApp...?

No response from the original tweeter but actually the answer to that would be...absolutely nothing whatsoever!!!

The more I think about it the more I reckon Jackson has been completely shafted by circumstance here. Again I get the IRFU position, but equally those hoping he doesn't get a contract anywhere (of which there are many on Twitter) need to cop themselves on.

mfceiling

launish116 wrote: »

Logan looked shocked there when asked should he step down on UTV news.

I'm surprised. This is the same man who said Ulster would be one of the biggest clubs etc and an envy of those elsewhere.

We've a great stadium and great fans and that's it. Team has gone backwards in the last 10 years. He's been at the helm.

I know he's more a business man than a rugby man cause only a business man would have shelled out a fortune on Piatau when there was glaring holes in the pack.

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

Yesterday's Sunday Times.

In the magazine section is an article about men being falsely accused of rape in England.

They need to ensure anonymity for the accused as well as the claimant for starters. One of the lads got home at 2am and was arrested at 5am and his picture was all over the Sun/Mail that day etc.

That is just ridiculous and leaves the the system wide open to abuse. Those two lads were very unlucky - one of the claimants was mentally unstable and the other one was a scorned girlfriend who wanted to make him suffer. While the mentally ill woman is impossible to punish, but the other one should be charged with wasting police time at least.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's be realistic. If Ulster rugby are broken into fragments the club is fcuked plain and simple.

Finding an acceptable compromise is optimal, finding a consensus forward is in the interest of everyone who wants Ulster rugby to succeed.

Hard to see a compromise here.

prawnsambo

Asus X540L wrote: »

I read he's applied to get his costs back

Yeah, I looked it up. It's not very likely though that he'll get all his costs or even anything. Firstly they're capped at legal aid rates which can be as low as 10% of private costs and you first have to be refused legal aid on the grounds of being able to afford your own defence. It's a weird system and the highest likelihood is you'll get nothing.

errlloyd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But where does moral innocence stop?

Reasonable cause. I can only make a judgement where I have reasonable cause to make that judgement.

Neil3030

bilston wrote: »

Someone on Twitter defending the sacking of Paddy Jackson on Twitter because of his attitude towards women via whatsapp

Someone responded...what did he say about women on WhatsApp...?

No response from the original tweeter but actually the answer to that would be...absolutely nothing whatsoever!!!

The more I think about it the more I reckon Jackson has been completely shafted by circumstance here. Again I get the IRFU position, but equally those hoping he doesn't get a contract anywhere (of which there are many on Twitter) need to cop themselves on.

His lawyer's combative statement after the court case was a terrible idea in hindsight. And the firm's decision to sue O'Riordan. He was always likely to remain a villain in large quarters of the public, but these two acts made sure of it.

Dubinusa

I got the impression from Logans statement, that the players supported this decision??
Maybe I need to read it again.
He is also saying that the sponsors had no role in the decision, hmmm.
I think he should not have made a comment until the dust settles. I can't see the players happy with this, maybe I'm wrong.
Absolutely the sponsors had a role and why not? Everybody gets it. Why say that?

Squidgy Black

Dubinusa wrote: »

I got the impression from Logans statement, that the players supported this decision??
Maybe I need to read it again.
He is also saying that the sponsors had no role in the decision, hmmm.
I think he should not have made a comment until the dust settles. I can't see the players happy with this, maybe I'm wrong.
Absolutely the sponsors had a role and why not? Everybody gets it. Why say that?

He states that there's "fractures" between players over the decision, to me that means that some players agree and some don't and there's turmoil in the locker room over it.

Doesn't sound like a good environment either way.

jm08

Statement from Rugby Players Ireland

Rugby Players Ireland acknowledges today’s statements by the IRFU, Ulster Rugby, Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding. We too are committed to rugby’s values of respect, integrity and inclusivity. Through our Player Development Programme we will work to ensure that these values are upheld throughout the rugby family both on and off the pitch. As the representative body for Ireland’s professional rugby players, we will now take time to examine the way the review process was carried out by the IRFU. We are not in a position to comment until such time as this has been completed.

https://www.rugbyplayersireland.ie/statement-paddy-jackson-stuart-olding/

They certainly don't seem to be up in arms about the decision to release them anyway.

The Lost Sheep

To change the subject quite a bit...

On Saturday week the Ulster Society of Rugby Football Referees (USRFR) are holding their annual Dinner in the Great Northern Hotel Bundoran.
Not news at all normally but its the first time the dinner has ever been held outside of the 6 counties.

If Ulster really want to progress on the pitch they need to do more things like this and bring them outside the 6...

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Statement from Rugby Players Ireland

Rugby Players Ireland acknowledges today’s statements by the IRFU, Ulster Rugby, Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding. We too are committed to rugby’s values of respect, integrity and inclusivity. Through our Player Development Programme we will work to ensure that these values are upheld throughout the rugby family both on and off the pitch. As the representative body for Ireland’s professional rugby players, we will now take time to examine the way the review process was carried out by the IRFU. We are not in a position to comment until such time as this has been completed.

https://www.rugbyplayersireland.ie/statement-paddy-jackson-stuart-olding/

They certainly don't seem to be up in arms about the decision to release them anyway.

No. They are reacting in the way you would want everyone else to have done. They are taking time to consider the events and make an informed, thoughtful decision.

Sinbad_NI

FWIW I'd have them playing for Ulster tomorrow.

They've effectively been thrown to the social media dogs in my opinion.

Be a long time before I'll be paying money to support the IRFU, Ulster Rugby or any of the sponsors involved.

Foxtrol

Neil3030 wrote: »

His lawyer's combative statement after the court case was a terrible idea in hindsight. And the firm's decision to sue O'Riordan. He was always likely to remain a villain in large quarters of the public, but these two acts made sure of it.

Olding's and Jackson's later apology have been used as sticks to beat them with by those who wanted their heads so no matter what he did initially it would have made little difference. I think his strategy actually worked out better than others in some respects. He had to draw the line with comments like that of O'Riordan and you could see that public figures and the media being much more careful in their analysis from the point of the threat onwards. I think it also likely played a part in getting the payoff they did from the IRFU.