The slow death of forums *see OP for Admin warning and update 28/02/18*

MadDog76

GreeBo wrote: »

If a mod is ignoring a PM, assuming you aren't just being a dick, you should take it to CMOD.

The PM usually isn't ignored, the Mod just repeats his/her stance ......... CMod, from my experience, just backs up the Mod ........ Admin also backs the Mod/CMod or says it's a "local" issue and so on.

My suggestion would be that the accused Poster is allowed ONE post in reply to the accusation even if said reply doesn't change the the thread ban ........ at least you can then publicly deny any phobiawhatever or xyz bashing accusations.

MadDog76

Omackeral wrote: »

I was thread banned today. I disagreed with the Mod's decision and PM'd them saying I felt it was unjustly OTT and outlined why I thought so. They got back to me not even 10 minutes later and said the ban was uplifted and was mistakenly handed down and that warning sufficed.

I wonder do people actually PM the Mods? I've PM'd them a couple of times and usually they're very fair. They won't always lift the infraction but they're not dicks about it either. That's just my experience with them on 1 to 1 encounters.

Ignored was the wrong word to use .........

I've also always PM'd and almost always gotten a reply but I'm still left with an accusation hanging over my head that I'm forbidden from publicly denying ....... that's an unfair situation to be found in so I'm suggesting/asking for a potential solution.

MadDog76

Beasty wrote: »

I spent a number of years as a CMod and dealing with that type of issue was one of the main responsibilities

There is a process, which I have set out many times when addressing complaints:
1. discuss with Mod: if not happy with outcome
2. discuss with CMod;
3. start a thread in the Help Desk. If you've exhausted the CMod option Help Desk is where you are likely to get Admin attention and threads there are never ignored

Attempting to discuss in-thread both disrupts the thread and is likely to encourage others to chip in. The discussion then turns to the mod action rather than the underlying topic. You then open up the possibility of inquests into pretty much every mod action that someone disagrees with. The site is here to discuss underlying topics and not be a continuous feedback discussion on the site itself

The Feedback forum was never intended to be a place to complain about mods or their actions. It was for users to provide suggestions on how the user's experience could be improved. Alas too many posters used it as an avenue to attach the mod/admin/office hierarchy. I have already said in this thread we are due to review the current Feedback format, as we said at the time the changes were introduced. I would hope we will be able to start an Open Feedback discussion on that, but we will have a number of takeaways from this thread to review and indeed prioritise

I do understand the need for the rule ........ how about something like MadDog do not post in this thread again, xyz bashing will not be tolerated. You have ONE right-to-reply post. If any other User replies to MadDogs post you will also be thread banned., ???

Just a suggestion.

Tayschren

Why do you bother, just let boards die. The only real contribution is by the mods, they control the dialogue.... The trump era

KKkitty

I for one hate what boards has become. There's no real fun here anymore. Legendary posters are gone, AH seems to be the same threads over and over again. Dole bashing, traveller bashing and so on and so on. I used to be splitting my sides in laughter with threads in here but now I'm not. Let us have our seemingly idiotic threads where we post near nonsense. The thread about what news we had to share every day was closed. It was lovely to share good things with others if you couldn't do it elsewhere and to see other boardsies having a good day. We all have enough crap going on in our own lives so let us have a bit of fun and frolics.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Arghus

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

But people are free to post in these threads if they wish, there's nothing to stop them. To say something "is mostly serving the interests of a very small subset of posters" almost makes it sound as if there's some sort of nefarious object behind it all!

So what if it's just a handful of posters keeping it going? Is that not the case for quite a lot of long running threads in many different forums? After a while there's usually a core group of posters who make up the majority of traffic and activity. Hey, at least they're putting the effort in!

I posted something the last day in the TA thread. I posted in the thread and then left it, I didn't hang around or particularly care about whether there was some long-running saga going on around me in the thread or cliques or what-not that I wasn't aware of: I just said my piece and left. I may post there again tomorrow or never again, I dunno. The notion took me at that moment. What of it if the rest of the thread is nothing but back and forth between a few - I really couldn't care less. I certainly didn't feel that I couldn't post in it and I was glad it was there when I wanted it. Surely that's serving the wider interests of the Boards community.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

So if ten posters are prolific posters in a chat thread, that means the thread is difficult to justify as it isn't serving the interests of the wider community? I don't see the logic. It doesn't have to serve the wider community, no thread does. It just serves the posters who use and enjoy it. If you don't want to participate, then don't.

It's not like the thread revolves around one poster dominating it.

_Dara_

Candie wrote: »

So if ten posters are prolific posters in a chat thread, that means the thread is difficult to justify as it isn't serving the interests of the wider community? I don't see the logic. It doesn't have to serve the wider community, no thread does. It just serves the posters who use and enjoy it. If you don't want to participate, then don't.

It's not like the thread revolves around one poster dominating it.

The post above yours explains it well, with stickies and then the chat threads, on the touch site, that's a lot of front page real estate taken over for the benefit a very small amount of posters. It's disproportionate to amount of people that use the threads. To a new would-be user, it looks like not much is going on and unwieldy threads are not something a new user is likely to dive into. Meanwhile, some established posters like me are growing a bit bored of AH as it feels like it's stagnating. And behemoth threads being bumped regularly by a small number of dedicated posters can mean that new threads drop down the page fast. If they go onto page 2 before gaining traction, forget about it. It can take a while for even an engaging thread to take hold and, IMO, behemoths are crowding out new threads which in turn means people are reluctant to start new threads which in turn compounds the issue. So a small number of forum members are influencing the forum in a big way, as far as I can see. There's a whole lot more to it than just "If you don't like the thread, don't read it". Other forums on the site have a strict 'one chat thread' rule. Why do you think that is if numerous chat threads aren't detrimental to a forum?

I really wish people would read the points made on the topic before coming out with "If you don't want to read the threads then don't" for the umpteenth time. And I do there is a little bit of oversensitivity going on in the thread from people who are regulars on the chat threads. I could turn around and say "if you don't want to read this feedback, then you don't have to" but can you not see how annoying that would be? I've always found it to be an inane sentiment. Why bother criticising anything if all one has to do is ignore it? We all criticise stuff. Why not this?

GreeBo

I think a single thread would be a disaster.
Impossible to follow, unrelated topics intermingled; an excellent way to kill any interest.

However I'm not going to get involved any more, at least not on this thread.
People can support or reject the forum request and it will take care of itself.

La.de.da

La.de.da wrote: »

Why can't people who do not want to participate in such threads just not click into them and ignore them.??
Plenty of threads here that don't interest me, so I just bypass them.. simples.

That's grand to say but the likes of Trivial things that annoy you is a very interesting concept to me. Then it kinda became all encompassing things like "I'm cold" and "I've chronic back pain" which are either repetitive or not trivial. That's without mentioning the chat that goes on. So as I've said, I just do drive-by posting in that thread.

In short they interest me in theory but their direction doesn't. I kinda ignore them but would prefer not to have to, if that makes sense. The compromise I've made works for me though, so it's not a biggie.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

I think a single thread would be a disaster.
Impossible to follow, unrelated topics intermingled; an excellent way to kill any interest.

However I'm not going to get involved any more, at least not on this thread.
People can support or reject the forum request and it will take care of itself.

You were the main instigator in going about getting the threads moved. Threads you have no interest in yourself. Now you decide "I've done my bit see ya".

Fr_Dougal

Deleted User wrote: »

You were the main instigator in going about getting the threads moved. Threads you have no interest in yourself. Now you decide "I've done my bit see ya".

It’s called making a reasoned argument in favour of of something, debating it and putting forward a viewpoint. There’s no point in debating it until the cows come home rehashing the same points again and again where they’re already here on thread for all to see.

The couple of active posters on those chat threads seem to be taking this personally, it’s nothing against the posters; it’s for the good of the forum and the larger community.

Fr_Dougal

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

It’s called making a reasoned argument in favour of of something, debating it and putting forward a viewpoint. There’s no point in debating it until the cows come home rehashing the same points again and again where they’re already here on thread for all to see.

The couple of active posters on those chat threads seem to be taking this personally, it’s nothing against the posters; it’s for the good of the forum and the larger community.

There are posters yourself included who want to change a community that has developed. Of course it's not going to be taken with a "sure grand off you go".

Tom Mann Centuria

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There are posters yourself included who want to change a community that has developed. Of course it's not going to be taken with a "sure grand off you go".

I still don't understand how it will change anything. So it's moved to a sub forum, what else will change? I'm not fussed either way about moving these threads but I GENUINELY can't see why people are getting upset, or read anywhere where people explain what they think will change (for the worse), if these threads are moved.

Discodog

MadDog76 wrote: »

There's an issue that I don't even know is solvable or not (let you worry about that!) and it's the "No questioning a Mod in thread" Rule, ie. I say "I don't believe xyz to be true" and a Mod posts xzy bashing will not be tolerated, do not post on this thread again MadDog, leaving me with no right to reply ......... the opinion (and it is only an opinion!) of the Mod that I was xyz bashing may be totally inaccurate but if I respond trying to explain my position I'll be banned and the ban will be upheld in DRP because I'll be told "You weren't carded for xyz bashing, you were banned for challenging a Mod in thread, ban upheld!".
If I PM the Mod instead or try the Feedback Forum (:D) or HelpDesk etc. I'll just be ignored ......... having said that, I do understand why the challenging a Mod in thread Rule exists.

Anyway, thoughts?

One of the many reasons why a forum feedback sticky is better than a specific feedback forum.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

You were the main instigator in going about getting the threads moved. Threads you have no interest in yourself. Now you decide "I've done my bit see ya".

I suggested it, opened the request to see if that's what people wanted and explained why I thought it was a good idea.

At this point it's dragging this thread too far off topic, so I'm not going to discuss it anymore here.

hhmmm?

I think the site should be renamed "mods" instead of boards because they take down posts that go against their narrow mindset. There are plenty of people who have come here to voice their opinion only to have a mod remove it for not agreeing to it. I for one don't bother posting anything much because it will probably be removed. This is probably the true cause of decline.

Discodog

Beasty wrote: »

I spent a number of years as a CMod and dealing with that type of issue was one of the main responsibilities

There is a process, which I have set out many times when addressing complaints:
1. discuss with Mod: if not happy with outcome
2. discuss with CMod;
3. start a thread in the Help Desk. If you've exhausted the CMod option Help Desk is where you are likely to get Admin attention and threads there are never ignored

Attempting to discuss in-thread both disrupts the thread and is likely to encourage others to chip in. The discussion then turns to the mod action rather than the underlying topic. You then open up the possibility of inquests into pretty much every mod action that someone disagrees with. The site is here to discuss underlying topics and not be a continuous feedback discussion on the site itself

The Feedback forum was never intended to be a place to complain about mods or their actions. It was for users to provide suggestions on how the user's experience could be improved. Alas too many posters used it as an avenue to attach the mod/admin/office hierarchy. I have already said in this thread we are due to review the current Feedback format, as we said at the time the changes were introduced. I would hope we will be able to start an Open Feedback discussion on that, but we will have a number of takeaways from this thread to review and indeed prioritise

I've been here for years & I have never understood the difference between the Help Desk & Feedback ................and then there's Feed Forward

gifted

GreeBo wrote: »

I suggested it, opened the request to see if that's what people wanted and explained why I thought it was a good idea.

At this point it's dragging this thread too far off topic, so I'm not going to discuss it anymore here.

What is/was the topic? OP highlighted that figures were down year on year, after nearly 1,370 posts the only proposal put forward was to move what some posters called chatty threads that were usually busy and had a lot of posters.

Why aren't the owners of the site coming forward with proposals?

GreeBo

gifted wrote: »

What is/was the topic? OP highlighted that figures were down year on year, after nearly 1,370 posts the only proposal put forward was to move what some posters called chatty threads that were usually busy and had a lot of posters.

Why aren't the owners of the site coming forward with proposals?

Beasty has said several times that the points raised and more will be discussed by mods/admins.

It would be useless for them to reply on thread with random individual ideas.

I fear the owners simply want better stats, hence things like locking old threads.

It feels like when your company hires *that guy* to increase profits short term so the company gets bought out and they make a killing.

What's left of the company is usually a shell at that point also

mzungu

hhmmm? wrote: »

I think the site should be renamed "mods" instead of boards because they take down posts that go against their narrow mindset. There are plenty of people who have come here to voice their opinion only to have a mod remove it for not agreeing to it. I for one don't bother posting anything much because it will probably be removed. This is probably the true cause of decline.

Just for having an opinion? No. That never happens. Ever. It often gets repeated but I have never seen any evidence of it. What does happen is, some will make abusive and/or trollish posts and be on the receiving end of a ban and then they believe that this is censoring their opinion. There is a massive difference.

Pac1Man

I dabble in the chat threads from time to time, mainly for the benefit of my adoring fans. I haven't got much invested interest and I don't see a big deal in a sub forum but what is it going to contain? Four threads? Will more be allowed? What if a new thread doesn't quite catch on or is not defined as a chat thread?

Rhetorical questions but a chat thread is a vague definition and will only confuse things, especially for new users. It will just end up becoming another AH within AH.

If AH was all about quirky randomness and the purpose of this thread is about bringing it back, why are we not having the discussion about the breaking news threads, trump topics, abortion threads etc. that have continuous traction? I would be shipping them out a lot quicker than light hearted topics.

I don't buy the 'we'll just see how it works out' angle. They seem to have been targeted due to a personal dislike for perceived cliques. Cliques are part of human life and are only an issue if they are hostile closed circles. Go visit one of the chat threads and tell me if you think it is hostile? The more serious threads I mentioned above are far more out of place in AH.

Beasty

gifted wrote: »

What is/was the topic? OP highlighted that figures were down year on year, after nearly 1,370 posts the only proposal put forward was to move what some posters called chatty threads that were usually busy and had a lot of posters.

Why aren't the owners of the site coming forward with proposals?

I've noted 16 site-wide as opposed to AH-specific points, from generic ones such as the Feedback format and consistency in moderation, through specific site development issues, points to be discussed at mod, Admin and Office level, as well as a few minor suggestions that were not discussed beyond an initial comment.

In addition I have noted posts 386 and 388, where the topic of burgers was raised. I can now confirm though that we will not be incentivising new registrations with Big Mac vouchers, as we feel that may cause a bit of overload on the system with the re-reg trolls

I did mention earlier I intend listing all those points once we start drawing this thread to a close

Pac1Man

Beasty wrote: »

I did mention earlier I intend listing all those points once we start drawing this thread to a close

Thank god for that. This thread was bumping the chatty ones down too far for my liking.

GreeBo

Beasty wrote: »

I've noted 16 site-wide as opposed to AH-specific points, from generic ones such as the Feedback format and consistency in moderation, through specific site development issues, points to be discussed at mod, Admin and Office level, as well as a few minor suggestions that were not discussed beyond an initial comment.

In addition I have noted posts 386 and 388, where the topic of burgers was raised. I can now confirm though that we will not be incentivising new registrations with Big Mac vouchers, as we feel that may cause a bit of overload on the system with the re-reg trolls

I did mention earlier I intend listing all those points once we start drawing this thread to a close

Erm I believe there was also a mention of tea & biscuits at one stage?

Such an Admin thing to do, only pick the topics you want and forget about the tea important ones.:rolleyes:

Beasty

Beasty wrote: »

:pac:

Fixed that one - was posting on mobile and didn't spot it

Will work though the others now...

Ah thanks.

And while I'm here, thanks to you and the AH Mods for your participation in this thread- it's very constructive.


A few observations/comments that may help this debate:

1. I notice a lot of posters say expressions like "Ah, the forum isn't the same anymore".
Well, any forum is made of (a) the sum total of the contributions of its members plus (b) the moderation of that forum.

Times change, people change, attitudes change, new people arrive, older posters have moved on or are too busy etc to post. 10 Years ago, a lot of threads on AH were novel and new.

I think it's harder now to develop a good solid original thread that will engage and entertain its members- a lot has been done and is being done elsewhere such as Reddit etc

This is not the fault of Mods- it's just there's a lot more out there to entertain people. If the forum doesn't deliver like it used to for you, then maybe your threshold for entertainment has risen beyond what the forum can deliver?

2. Develop a culture of failure without the criticism

I'd like to see posters encouraged rather than discouraged to try and open new threads - and if they fail, they fail on the merits of the thread quality. But not to knock someone just because they've tried.

but this aspiration will only succeed if the following also takes place..

3. Develop a culture of personal responsibility

When it comes to your own posting style, be more supportive of threads, even if you may not think they're great. Disagree if you want, but have respect for the poster more. Be less cynical about peoples posting style and instead ask yourself, "How have I helped to contribute to this forum?"

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

mzungu

I don't see the problem with chat threads on the front page of AH. If history repeats itself, if they are moved then they will most likely die a death in a sub-forum. I am not sure the argument that it is the same few posters keeping it on the front page is a reason to move it, for example, the Donald Trump thread in politics has been on the front page for donkeys years with (I presume) the same posters duking it out. Should that be moved to its own forum? Absolutely not. As a general rule, most long running threads will have the same people keeping it going. No harm whatsoever being done there.

A sub-forum may end up being the digital equivalent of being exiled to Siberia. Sure, I barely notice that there is a sub-forum on TGC, and the same may very well happen here. New posters may not know where to find it, and old posters may end up leaving.