2018 In Between Grand Slam Thread

Floppybits

Maybe so but I don't see the challenge coming from the next generation. Zverev has been disappointing in the Slams, Thiem made a breakthrough but he isn't that consistant, Tsitipas has the talent but hasn't done much yet.  Of the old guard, Murray we don't know what he will be like, Wawrinka has potential but only when he feels like it, Berdych, tsonga, etc are only journeymen now.  Del Potro if he can stay injury free could make some challenge.

lostcat

Floppybits wrote: »

I can see Djokovic challenging Federers number of slam wins.  Djokovic is on 14 at the moment, with the competition as it is at moment, Federer in decline, Nadal injured more often than not and the rest either coming back from injury or not at his level I can see him winning at least 6 slams between 2019 and 2020. Realistically who is there to challenge him?

He has missed his chance on this once and for all at this stage, going walkabout for 18 months there, allowing Federer (and Nadal) to notch up three more slams was really the last straw. That and the multiple missed opportunities between 2011 and hiring Becker.

As odd as it sounds, 14 slams is a poor return for someone who was the dominant male player on tour for the past 7 years and was for the most part untouchable.

He may well catch Nadal on 17, and I really hope they are both fit and firing at the FO where they should be the top 2 seeds.

in relation to who will beat him, I dont know as I have lost faith in the next gen (and the nexter gen), they are clearly just not that good.

Floppybits

I agree 14 slams is a poor return from him, he should really be level or ahead of Nadal by now.  There is always the pre 2011 Djokovic lurking in the shadows but there is really no one to touch him going on present form. Maybe one of the players will do a 2011 Djokovic and come out and destroy everyone but at the moment I don't see it.   The French Open will be interesting if Nadal and Djokovic are fit.

lostcat

Interesting that Nadal and Djokovic are humming and hawing about pulling out of the Saudi exhibition match next month. Neither of them need the money, or indeed the 'brand' hassle that the media (even the tennis media, and even the irish times! :O) has been stirring up. It will be interesting to see if they go ahead or not (but probably a discussion for a different part of Boards).

josip

I also think that it's unlikely that Djokovic will win everything for the next 12 months.
I have no concerns regarding form or competitors.
But physical and mental well being cannot be taken for granted.

I think it's a bit harsh to consider 14 grand slams an underachievement.
The same logic could equally be applied to peak Federer/Nadal and say that if thye'd been able to maintain that longer they'd have had more titles.

mickmackey1

I can't see him eclipsing Federer's tally, 31 is real veteran status and an injury/loss of form is only round the corner.

There is some genuine talent in the next Gen, Khachanov in particular looks the real deal.

lostcat

josip wrote: »

I think it's a bit harsh to consider 14 grand slams an underachievement.
The same logic could equally be applied to peak Federer/Nadal and say that if thye'd been able to maintain that longer they'd have had more titles.

In my opinion he is, on balance, (slightly) better than either Federer or Nadal and was better than anyone else for most of the past 8 years.
He is the only player to have won back to back slams since 2011 (he has apparantly done this 6 times in the meantime) and had no business losing slam finals to Stan / Murray.

From that point of view I think he should have had a few more slams in the bag. If I am being harsh it is because I hold his tennis in exceptionally high regard.

Joe_ Public

I find it interesting when the young up and coming talent is talked about. Zverev is 21, Khachenov 22. How long more should they need? The likes of Becker, Nadal, Borg etc were winning slams in their teens. I’ve heard Djokovic described as a late developer in the past but he won his first slam at 21.

Maybe that’s merely a sign that in general life, as well as sport, people are slower to mature and careers are lasting a bit longer. The young guys now have had to endure the continued dominance of the big 3/4 (delete as you deem fit), but it’s maybe a tad disappointing if they have to wait for these guys to depart before they make their mark.

Chivito550

lostcat wrote: »

In my opinion he is, on balance, (slightly) better than either Federer or Nadal and was better than anyone else for most of the past 8 years.
He is the only player to have won back to back slams since 2011 (he has apparantly done this 6 times in the meantime) and had no business losing slam finals to Stan / Murray.

From that point of view I think he should have had a few more slams in the bag. If I am being harsh it is because I hold his tennis in exceptionally high regard.

Could say that about anyone. Federer should never have lost to Delpo in 2009 or Safin in 05 AO. He wasn't fully himself (after the glandular fever) in 2008 when he lost to Djokovic at the AO. On the flip side Federer shouldn't have beaten Roddick at 09 Wimbledon.

Djokovic was beaten convincingly by Stan in both slam finals they played. In fact Djokovic was lucky to make that US Open final. He basically had 3 walkovers en route to the final.

Shoulda woulda coulda. Ony thing that matters is what actually happened.

Chivito550

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I find it interesting when the young up and coming talent is talked about. Zverev is 21, Khachenov 22. How long more should they need? The likes of Becker, Nadal, Borg etc were winning slams in their teens. I’ve heard Djokovic described as a late developer in the past but he won his first slam at 21.

Maybe that’s merely a sign that in general life, as well as sport, people are slower to mature and careers are lasting a bit longer. The young guys now have had to endure the continued dominance of the big 3/4 (delete as you deem fit), but it’s maybe a tad disappointing if they have to wait for these guys to depart before they make their mark.

Federer won his first slam not long before his 22nd birthday.

Joe_ Public

Chivito550 wrote: »

Federer won his first slam not long before his 22nd birthday.

Ok sure. I’m not saying every great player was winning just out of puberty. But precociousness once seemed a more prevalent commodity, to me anyway. Sampras won his first slam in his teens, McEnroe was 20. On the distaff side you’ve Sharapova, Austin, any number of prodigies over the years really.

I don’t know why exactly, but things and times are changing. I think I first noticed this with Dimitrov a couple of years ago when the tendency was to regard him as a callow youth and sometimes overlook his obvious flaws even though he was approaching his mid 20s.

It’s not just tennis, seems a feature of quite a few sports as well as a growing trend.

Chivito550

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Ok sure. I’m not saying every great player was winning just out of puberty. But precociousness once seemed a more prevalent commodity, to me anyway. Sampras won his first slam in his teens, McEnroe was 20. On the distaff side you’ve Sharapova, Austin, any number of prodigies over the years really.

I don’t know why exactly, but things and times are changing. I think I first noticed this with Dimitrov a couple of years ago when the tendency was to regard him as a callow youth and sometimes overlook his obvious flaws even though he was approaching his mid 20s.

It’s not just tennis, seems a feature of quite a few sports as well as a growing trend.

With slow courts, tennis has become more about endurance these days. Endurance lasts well into your late 30s.

Doping really helps with endurance too.

Joe_ Public

Chivito550 wrote: »

With slow courts, tennis has become more about endurance these days. Endurance lasts well into your late 30s.

Doping really helps with endurance too.

Sounds like a fair point. Wouldn’t explain things fully I don’t think but a likely contributary factor for sure.

Johnmb

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Sounds like a fair point. Wouldn’t explain things fully I don’t think but a likely contributary factor for sure.

The slowness of the game (courts, balls, and racket/string technology making mis-hits less damaging) have made it almost impossible for teenagers to win the big tournaments nowadays. A skilful teenager could once use those skills to kill points quickly, but now have to try to grind out results. A fully developed older man (or woman) will simply have too much power for them and will grind them down with today's slower game

Johnmb

lostcat wrote: »

Interesting that Nadal and Djokovic are humming and hawing about pulling out of the Saudi exhibition match next month. Neither of them need the money, or indeed the 'brand' hassle that the media (even the tennis media, and even the irish times! :O) has been stirring up. It will be interesting to see if they go ahead or not (but probably a discussion for a different part of Boards).

Most likely they aren't sure if they can get out of the contract without being sued for a lot of money, so they are avoiding making a statement until their legal teams have gone through every aspect of the contract.

lostcat

Chivito550 wrote: »

Could say that about anyone.....

Shoulda woulda coulda. Ony thing that matters is what actually happened.

fair enough, however i'm not arguing about numbers or facts

my point is that in my opinion Djokovic is a better tennis player than Federer or Nadal and, this being the case, should have more slam titles than either and has let that opportunity slip.

lostcat

Johnmb wrote: »

Most likely they aren't sure if they can get out of the contract without being sued for a lot of money, so they are avoiding making a statement until their legal teams have gone through every aspect of the contract.

This is possibly the case, however I doubt the Saudis are going to sue anyone and add fuel to the fire (seeing as they seem to have backed down a bit in denying any foul play at all around the incident in question)

I really don't know why they agreed to play in the first place to be honest, apart from the money.

Johnmb

lostcat wrote: »

This is possibly the case, however I doubt the Saudis are going to sue anyone and add fuel to the fire (seeing as they seem to have backed down a bit in denying any foul play at all around the incident in question)

I really don't know why they agreed to play in the first place to be honest, apart from the money.

They agreed for the money, but they agreed last year and there was no big controversy about playing in Saudi back then (Yemen doesn't seem to be causing the same criticism as the journalist...)

Joe_ Public

Johnmb wrote: »

The slowness of the game (courts, balls, and racket/string technology making mis-hits less damaging) have made it almost impossible for teenagers to win the big tournaments nowadays. A skilful teenager could once use those skills to kill points quickly, but now have to try to grind out results. A fully developed older man (or woman) will simply have too much power for them and will grind them down with today's slower game

Would definitely accept all that up to a point for sure, though not sure I’m fully convinced 19-20 year olds should automatically be overpowered by older players. I mean I think there is something more going on, to do with mental toughness, but that’s just a theory on my part.

It would seem to me the logical conclusion of what you’ve posted, and I’m not disputing it, is that those younger skillful players you talk about simply won’t make the grade and will be passed out by those with more brawn than finesse. If so, not sure the sport will be any the better for it.

Johnmb

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Would definitely accept all that up to a point for sure, though not sure I’m fully convinced 19-20 year olds should automatically be overpowered by older players. I mean I think there is something more going on, to do with mental toughness, but that’s just a theory on my part.

It would seem to me the logical conclusion of what you’ve posted, and I’m not disputing it, is that those younger skillful players you talk about simply won’t make the grade and will be passed out by those with more brawn than finesse. If so, not sure the sport will be any the better for it.

I think the grind down applies mentally as well as physically. I also think brawn will win out over finesse generally going forward (unless there's a very occasional exception). The sport won't be any better for it. Hopefully they'll change course, but they only seem to want to mess with the rules to speed up the length of time a match takes, they don't seem to want to deal with the technology/equipment/courts to speed up the individual points...

Floppybits

Djokovic marches on beats Cilic in 3 sets.

Rikand

Djoko vs Federer this afternoon in the semis.

Thiem vs Khacanov in the other before them

Rikand

Great match in Paris

Djoko wins the first set on tie break.
Federer saves 8 break points and then breaks Djoko in the 12th game of the second set to take it

Rikand

And after a thoroughly brilliant even match, Fed bottles the tiebreak

Joe_ Public

Had a great chance to make it deuce on djokovic serve at 6-5 deciding set. All downhill from there pretty much.

lostcat

Very good match, as these two usually give us.
Djokovic loosing sets in the past two matches might make it interesting tomorrow, Khachanov has been chewing up the scenery all week and I'm still hoping that one of these young fellas will prove to be actually good.

dominatinMC

lostcat wrote: »

Very good match, as these two usually give us.
Djokovic loosing sets in the past two matches might make it interesting tomorrow, Khachanov has been chewing up the scenery all week and I'm still hoping that one of these young fellas will prove to be actually good.

I've been banging on the Khachanov (and Tsitsipas) drum for a while, I think both are ready to make a move next year. Based on today's performance though, I think Djokovic will have too much for him tomorrow. That was some match between himself and Fed today. Nevertheless, it's a bit mad that tennis is still relying on the Big3 to provide all/most of the entertainment on the mens side! :pac:

dominatinMC

Khachanov wins in straights. Watch this space in 2019!

Floppybits

dominatinMC wrote: »

Khachanov wins in straights. Watch this space in 2019!

Surprised by that result. Finally could one of the youngsters be ready to step up and challenge the big boys.

yerwanthere123

Floppybits wrote: »

Surprised by that result. Finally could one of the youngsters be ready to step up and challenge the big boys.

We've been saying this for years though, unfortunately. I think if he can get over his obvious mental hurdles at slams then Zverev is still the best shot to be able to challenge the big boys. Easy to forget he's still just 21.

Anyway, great result from Khachanov today, it's the least he deserves after going through life with a girl's name.