Friday 29th December

RivetingRoger · 29-12-2017 6:04pm

HandsomeBob wrote: »

Easy to say that the King George was what swayed Willie but people forget it was more or less an 11th hour decision from Willie. Relegating a horse from the Gold Cup to the Ryanair at the last minute tells you everything, or should do, about the calibre of horse that Mullins thought Vautour was able for at the time.

And he was subsequently proven so so wrong....
Of course then there are those that believe Ruby who has many GC's may have had a little word in the ear of WPM cos its in Rubys best interest to have as many winners as he wants, and he knew Vautour was a good thing in the ryanair
Remember RR's interview on CH4 in the parade ring after Ryanair? Closest you will ever see to him being cross with WPM for not going for GC

Johner · 29-12-2017 6:36pm

BoroMan32 wrote: »

Hung the whole length of the straight. There's plenty of ability in there if Joseph can get it out of him.

Just back from Leopardstown now, thought he ran well considering how green he still was. Looks to have loads of ability and looks a nice prospect and hopefully it is just greenness and he's not an ungenuine type. Still looks very raw but plenty to work with hopefully.

Andalucia · 29-12-2017 6:49pm

the wheels are fairly coming off the Rich Ricci bandwaggon now

no young stock to replace the former stars

wonder how long more he'll stick with it - he had a great run in fairness

Motivator · 29-12-2017 8:23pm

Andalucia wrote: »

the wheels are fairly coming off the Rich Ricci bandwaggon now

no young stock to replace the former stars

wonder how long more he'll stick with it - he had a great run in fairness

Ah I think that’s a bit of an overreaction. Ricci is going nowhere anytime soon and he has plenty young horses coming. Those new barns in Mullins’ yard weren’t built for no reason ðŸ˜‰

maximo31 · 29-12-2017 8:36pm

maximo31 wrote: »

The Ballyboys in limerick tomorrow to repeat last year's race win. Few quid coming already. 6/1
Liz Doyle's in the bumper at Limerick could run the fav close. 11/2.

The Ballyboys holds on to win , gambled from 13/2 into 4/1 just before the off.:D
Stinker of a run from Play the Dane.

Conas · 29-12-2017 8:52pm

RivetingRoger wrote: »

Vautour would have won that GC, he just would.
Mullins maybe not have another chance like that for a long time the way things are going now

Didn't Ricci say something along the lines 'Vautour runs in the GC or stays at home'.
Clearly he was overruled by Willie who is just too conservative and picky at the best of times. All over the fact he lost by a head to Cue Card, who went on to be a total failure in the GC in 2016 and 2017, by falling.
I wouldn't mind but it was Vautour's first race running over 3 miles, and for a young horse, he truly ran a blinder. Djakadam ran Cossack close, but Vautour would have ran better than both.

jimjamcos · 29-12-2017 8:53pm

Andalucia wrote:

no young stock to replace the former stars

He's actually got the most young stock he's ever had, 16/17 novice hurdles. He's got no new superstar yet, however, with the unfortunate Sharjah looking the best of them but still unlikely to be anything ultra special.

The bigger question is whether Mullins got the most out of Ricci's golden generation though?

Faugheen (2) and Annie (1) were both troubled by injury but mostly won when making track and with a Champion hurdle to their name each, you'd have to deem that a success.

Vautour (3) was a triple festival winner so, again, that would be deemed a success at any level but, as said, he should really have been the horse to go close for him in the big one.

Douvan (2), twice a festival winner but, again, injury interrupted his career. Can't really blame him for taking Gr2 options when clearly prep for expected bigger targets last season.

Vroum Vroum Mag (1) won a Mares hurdle and a beaten 2nd to top notcher in Apples Jade when not given the greatest ride. Again, she may have been better over fences but would she have been good enough to win a Gold Cup? Unlikely.

In what I'd consider Ricci's top 5 horses with Willie (Min still has to do it at Gr1 championship level), he's won 9 Grade 1s at Cheltenham festival from 13 runs which is a seriously high strike rate, regardless of given latent talent.

The bigger, underlying, issue for Mullins, however, has been maintaining the health of all 5 though - Faugheen, Annie and Douvan all had significant injury time off the track whilst Vautour and VVM were always one of the first to roll off Mullins tongue as "not particularly satisfying me in their work".

Was it Mullins training them hard to win as novice horses (unlikely imo), his natural conservatism when they had already achieved and weren't pleasing, or sheer bad luck (a definite in Vautours case) which kept them off the track in later years?

One thing's for sure, given the operation, we'll never really know. A shame for Ricci, his golden generation and fans.

WickIow Brave · 29-12-2017 10:07pm

Both Faugheen and Annie Power reached the pinnacle of the sport winning Champion Hurdles and both put up a singular huge ratings performance in the Irish Champion Hurdle and the Aintree Hurdle so I don't think you can say it was a case of what might have been or unfulfilled potential. They lacked longevity but they showed how good they were. Vautour was just a freak accident and a great shame so although it is a case of might have been, he captured the public's imagination enough that he'll be remembered long after plenty of Gold Cup winners. Not much you can do about a horse getting killed like that. Douvan is a complete disaster though. No two ways about it, if they don't get him back it is a nightmare for them.

Shemale · 29-12-2017 11:47pm

Shemale wrote: »

Raging had a long long long look at Mick Jazz this morning and thought cop yourself on a half fit Faugheen would ate them all

Auroras_encore wrote: »

Aye course you did &#55357;&#56834;

Hardly a stretch given I called out Mullins horses weren't running to form as far back as Wednesday and today out of the horses I backed one was 12/1, one was 20/1 and one was 50/1 with no Mullins horses in my selections since.

Shemale · 29-12-2017 11:50pm

handsfree2 wrote: »

Henderson had too with Sprinter Sacre, Simonsig, Bob's Worth, finians rainbow, Riverside theater all winning at Cheltenham in 2012

Only Sprinter and Simonsig were of the calibre of the aforementioned Ricci and Nicholls horses

Shemale · 29-12-2017 11:57pm

Johner wrote: »

Just back from Leopardstown now, thought he ran well considering how green he still was. Looks to have loads of ability and looks a nice prospect and hopefully it is just greenness and he's not an ungenuine type. Still looks very raw but plenty to work with hopefully.

Looked very green to me, shame O Connor couldn't get him up the rail when he tried, could be a decent horse alright.

handsfree2 · 30-12-2017 12:15am

Shemale wrote: »

Only Sprinter and Simonsig were of the calibre of the aforementioned Ricci and Nicholls horses

Bob's Worth achieved as much as Denman

Urindanger · 30-12-2017 12:17am

Shemale wrote: »

Only Sprinter and Simonsig were of the calibre of the aforementioned Ricci and Nicholls horses

Bob's Worth as well although it seems it's not fashionable to mention him among the greats. Not the most stylish or classiest but an unbelievable animal with some cracking results.

dk6dk6 · 30-12-2017 12:45am

handsfree2 wrote: »

Bob's Worth achieved as much as Denman

There's no comparison at all between Bobs Worth and Denman.

Always makes me laugh how Kauto Star always gets so much praise and rightfully so but it's not the same with Denman. They raced against eachother on 4 occasions and 3 times Denman came out on top and the only time Kauto beat him was when Denman was returning from serious injury. Without serious injuries and favouritism from Paul Nicholls Denman would have achieved a lot more

Shemale · 30-12-2017 1:22am

handsfree2 wrote: »

Bob's Worth achieved as much as Denman

You quoted my post but completely missed the point, Denman was a far superior animal to Bobs Worth, Denman beat Kauto in his Gold Cup. Denman won two Hennessy's off top weight.

Denman was second in three Gold Cups after this heart problem, in those Gold Cups Kauto got 186, Imperial Commander got 185 and Long Run got 182 (Denman was 11 and Kauto was 11 and 4L behind Denman)

handsfree2 · 30-12-2017 10:32am

Shemale wrote: »

You quoted my post but completely missed the point, Denman was a far superior animal to Bobs Worth, Denman beat Kauto in his Gold Cup. Denman won two Hennessy's off top weight.

Denman was second in three Gold Cups after this heart problem, in those Gold Cups Kauto got 186, Imperial Commander got 185 and Long Run got 182 (Denman was 11 and Kauto was 11 and 4L behind Denman)

At that point in time Bob's Worth had just won the Albert Bartlett and was going to go on to win the RSA, Hennessy and gold cup. So in my opinion at that point in time Henderson looked like he was going to dominate the game in the same way Nichols had and Willie was going to go on and do.

handsfree2 · 30-12-2017 10:33am

handsfree2 wrote: »

At that point in time Bob's Worth had just won the Albert Bartlett and was going to go on to win the RSA, Hennessy and gold cup. So in my opinion at that point in time Henderson looked like he was going to dominate the game in the same way Nichols had and Willie was going to go on and do.

And in fairness he was top trainer at Cheltenham for those couple of years before Willie got that crop of outstanding horses.

hawaii501 · 30-12-2017 1:50pm

Shemale wrote: »

Only Sprinter and Simonsig were of the calibre of the aforementioned Ricci and Nicholls horses

And yet none won a gold cup unlike Bob's Worth.

Possibly one of the mworst comments i have seen on this forum.

WickIow Brave · 30-12-2017 2:19pm

hawaii501 wrote: »

And yet none won a gold cup unlike Bob's Worth.

Possibly one of the mworst comments i have seen on this forum.

Lord Windermere won a Gold Cup ffs. Some very average horses have won Gold Cups. Not saying Bobs Worth was average but Sizing John has also won a Gold Cup and you couldn't argue SJ is a better horse than Douvan?!

Shemale · 30-12-2017 2:22pm

hawaii501 wrote: »

And yet none won a gold cup unlike Bob's Worth.

Possibly one of the mworst comments i have seen on this forum.

I am drowning in irony here.....

Using that logic you are saying he was a better animal than Flying Bolt, Masterminded, Moscow Flyer, Flagship Uberalles, Viking Flagship and One Man, is that right?

hawaii501 · 30-12-2017 3:37pm

Bob's worth was hardly a worse horse than Simonsig as you 'quoted'.

He achieved far more in the game than him and should have been a treble-wimmer at chelt.

I know i am nit-picking that it was only sprinter and simonsig but I would have him on terms with the Mullins clan.

hawaii501 · 30-12-2017 3:41pm

WickIow Brave wrote: »

Lord Windermere won a Gold Cup ffs. Some very average horses have won Gold Cups. Not saying Bobs Worth was average but Sizing John has also won a Gold Cup and you couldn't argue SJ is a better horse than Douvan?!

Would you cop on! Windermere was a fluke because bobs worth was spooked that day.

In fact Bobs Worth he is given a lot less credit. Should have 2.

Shemale · 30-12-2017 3:45pm

hawaii501 wrote: »

Would you cop on! Windermere was a fluke because bobs worth was spooked that day.

In fact Bobs Worth he is given a lot less credit. Should have 2.

LOL

BumperD · 30-12-2017 4:02pm

hawaii501 wrote: »

He achieved far more in the game than him and should have been a treble-wimmer at chelt.
.

He was a triple winner at cheltenham.

JJs Left Hand · 30-12-2017 4:28pm

I loved Bobs Worth but in the same bracket as The Tank?!

Not having that.

hawaii501 · 30-12-2017 4:49pm

Completely forgot about the RSA he won.

And i was just saying he deserved to be named in hendersons armour along with simonsig and sprinter sacre in that you couldn't disregard him.

The Tank was a different animal altogether.

Shemale · 30-12-2017 10:28pm

hawaii501 wrote: »

Bob's worth was hardly a worse horse than Simonsig as you 'quoted'.

He achieved far more in the game than him and should have been a treble-wimmer at chelt.

I know i am nit-picking that it was only sprinter and simonsig but I would have him on terms with the Mullins clan.

You have completely missed the point of the discussion, we are talking about trainers with horses of a generation / lifetime and when these horses that put in a performance where the racing world takes notice.

Nobody is saying Bobs Worth was ****, he just wasn't a horse that fits into this category, think Sprinters Arkle, Simonsigs Neptune they make people sit up and go **** me that was serious, Bobs RSA just wasn't at that level.

Friday 29th December

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