The plight of the Irish Fisherman

SEPT 23 1989

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I don't know, people are trawling the ocean floor, wrecking entire ecosystems. What's to admire about these people? We just need to stop eating fish for a while. I love seafood and fish but would gladly leave it alone for a few years to replenish stocks.

Storm force winds huge seas hundreds of miles from shore not many other jobs would have you dancing with death for small money

corner of hells

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I don't know, people are trawling the ocean floor, wrecking entire ecosystems. What's to admire about these people? We just need to stop eating fish for a while. I love seafood and fish but would gladly leave it alone for a few years to replenish stocks.

Storm force winds huge seas hundreds of miles from shore not many other jobs would have you dancing with death for small money

I thought they had a whale of a time while out at sea .

donegaLroad

6 months ago there was a Dutch super trawler fishing off the coast of Donegal while all our boats were docked in Killybegs harbour. It's absurd.

Shenshen

I honestly think that the fishing quota system the EU has implemented is deeply flawed.
I appreciate the conservationist thought behind it, and I would agree that we do need measures to ensure that fishstock and marine life everywhere are managed properly and not damaged or destroyed by overfishing.
However, trying to regulate this by placing a quota on the fish that can be landed does absolutely nothing to address this. Fishermen can't control what goes into their nets, and by the time they've sorted through what does and what doesn't fall within the quota, the fish that were meant to be protected by the quota are dead. So all they do is throw dead fish back overboard. I can imagine how utterly frustrating this must be for the fishermen, and how absurd this is.

I wonder if a maritime equivalent of close season may not be a good answer. We already use it to protect our wild birds and game from being overhunted, so why not our fish as well?

Jawgap

donegaLroad wrote: »

6 months ago there was a Dutch super trawler fishing off the coast of Donegal while all our boats were docked in Killybegs harbour. It's absurd.

Seriously laughable if Killybegs is complaining about super trawlers after the respective sagas of the Veronica and the Atlantic Dawn.

Btw, It's quite possible the Killybegs boats had used up their quota or were managing their days at sea.

Jawgap

Shenshen wrote: »

I honestly think that the fishing quota system the EU has implemented is deeply flawed.
I appreciate the conservationist thought behind it, and I would agree that we do need measures to ensure that fishstock and marine life everywhere are managed properly and not damaged or destroyed by overfishing.
However, trying to regulate this by placing a quota on the fish that can be landed does absolutely nothing to address this. Fishermen can't control what goes into their nets, and by the time they've sorted through what does and what doesn't fall within the quota, the fish that were meant to be protected by the quota are dead. So all they do is throw dead fish back overboard. I can imagine how utterly frustrating this must be for the fishermen, and how absurd this is.

I wonder if a maritime equivalent of close season may not be a good answer. We already use it to protect our wild birds and game from being overhunted, so why not our fish as well?

The system is a mess but unless the fishermen agree to fundamental reforms (such as property-type rights over parts of the ocean) then it will continue.

You're assessment that it's deeply flawed is correct, but it's improving, just not quickly!

Also, with modern technology fishermen can exercise greater control over the species they target - it's not as indiscriminate as was previously the case, especially on larger more modern vessels.

Finally, now everything pretty much gets landed. No discards and quotas are adjusted accordingly.

And there are closed seasons and closed areas to try and protect stocks.

Bigus

Yeah , I have to laugh at they took all our fish,

I'm old enough to remember that You couldn't give fish away in Ireland in the 70's ,

quite possibly a consequence of the Catholic Church forcing Irish mammies to feed over cooked bland,badly, handled (butcher supplied once a week) fish Every Friday to kids who didn't want it.

So fish was something to endure, not seek.

However trips to the continent, re-educated irish people to the joys of imaginatively prepared fresh (an often irish caught) fish.

So bascically the Eu took something we absolutely didn't want at the time , if they even "took" it , because without the EU there'd be no market for "our" fish

Del2005

Romantic Rose wrote: »

When I sea how much plastic and rubbish washes up on my local beach, I'd say they are catching more plastic than fish.

I've completely gone off fish recently. Just can't get over the psychology of eating plastic that fish have digested.

It's a pity our world is so polluted!

I was always more worried about them living in sewage, I don't like eating my meals twice.

downwesht

The fleet has not remained stagnant look at the pelagic fleet in Killybegs!!!Millions of euros worth of vessels that fish 4 to six months of the year.Supertrawlers are not the biggest threat to the Irish fishing industry......Irish fishermen are.....

flatty

I personally would just ban boats over a certain length. It could be patrolled with a tape measure, bring back the smaller trawling industry at the stroke of a pen, conserve fish stocks as the boats couldn't travel all those many miles out to sea, and greatly reduce waste.
The factory ships seem to me to be the great ecological threat, and to be the mainstay of the developing aristocracy in the fishing industry

Shenshen

flatty wrote: »

I personally would just ban boats over a certain length. It could be patrolled with a tape measure, bring back the smaller trawling industry at the stroke of a pen, conserve fish stocks as the boats couldn't travel all those many miles out to sea, and greatly reduce waste.
The factory ships seem to me to be the great ecological threat, and to be the mainstay of the developing aristocracy in the fishing industry

I'm far from an expert, but to the best of my knowledge only fishing close to shore would actually cause severe damage to the species of fish that have their habitat there, plus damage the ones that usually live further out but hatch and spend their early lives closer to shore. That's a very bad idea, really.

If anything, it would be much better to only fish further out, as you'd catch more mature fish, not the young. Also, going by Jawgap's information, modern technology can enable fishermen to target certain species over others, so what you really want are modern, well-equipped boats, not small little nutshells.

RasTa

Not many Irish people involved in the fishing industry anymore. Crew are all eastern euros

Dravokivich

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Fishing isn't really sustainable the way things are going. Fish farming seems to cause serious problems too. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all just be sensible for once and stop fishing for 5 years or so in all European waters? Let the stocks replenish. Maybe they could pay fishermen some kind of living wage in the meantime to shut them up.

It's not just fishermen in the industry.

downwesht

If the SFPA enforced the quality rules there would be no need for quantity rules.The overall quality of fish being landed is poor as a result of poor handling......BIM are a joke organisation that should be disbanded....you have a board member that personally handles foreign boats in Irish ports!!!!FACT..... only in Ireland!!!

Jawgap

flatty wrote: »

I personally would just ban boats over a certain length. It could be patrolled with a tape measure, bring back the smaller trawling industry at the stroke of a pen, conserve fish stocks as the boats couldn't travel all those many miles out to sea, and greatly reduce waste.
The factory ships seem to me to be the great ecological threat, and to be the mainstay of the developing aristocracy in the fishing industry

Size isn't everything

A medium sized boat with powerful engines, the latest sonar, using drone technology etc is a much more efficient vessel than a larger one.

You need to limit where fishers can fish, limit engine hp, limit the days at sea and have quotas to even try and keep up with the technological developments that the industry regularly brings forward.

Personally, I reckon if we ate more fish, there'd be more sustainable fishing!! Because we'd be more informed consumers which would mean we'd place more of a premium on quality which would encourage fishers to look after their catch better, giving them a higher margin which means less going after quantity and more going after quality........but I'd be pessimistic about that virtuous circle ever kicking off!

somefeen

Jawgap wrote: »

Size isn't everything

A medium sized boat with powerful engines, the latest sonar, using drone technology etc is a much more efficient vessel than a larger one.

You need to limit where fishers can fish, limit engine hp, limit the days at sea and have quotas to even try and keep up with the technological developments that the industry regularly brings forward.

Personally, I reckon if we ate more fish, there'd be more sustainable fishing!! Because we'd be more informed consumers which would mean we'd place more of a premium on quality which would encourage fishers to look after their catch better, giving them a higher margin which means less going after quantity and more going after quality........but I'd be pessimistic about that virtuous circle ever kicking off!

Your dead right and BIM are pushing that for the last few years.
I think we can have a sustainable fishing industry but the whole thing needs a drastic overhaul. The regulations are outdated and overly complex and the Irish industry doesn't fit a modern economy. When you look at the costs of operating here, we'd suit a smaller industry focused on selling a processed high quality product instead.
Our own labour market doesn't even suit what we have now. Selling a better product would give us more scientific and marketing based jobs. We've a well educated workforce so we should capitalise on that.

Having said that some fishing is still very sustainable as it is.

gctest50

The Australian government banned the second largest super trawler :

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-13/super-trawler-legislation-passes-house-of-reps/4260142?pfmredir=sm

it ended up here and got a little bonus :

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/worlds-second-largest-supertrawler-enters-irish-waters-30058458.html


Its crew of 50 normally conducts round-the-clock fishing operations in a region for six to eight weeks before landing its processed catch.

Capt'n Midnight

Bottom line is that the small guy has no clout. Big business can buy past them. One supertrawler can replace many smaller family boats. In the UK one Dutch boat has 23% of the quota , UK based inshore fishermen only get 4%. Just in case anyone thinks politicians care about local fishermen.

And even when no longer here they can still hoover up money :mad:
Fishing rights: ‘Big corporations win out, because they have clout’

The former owners of Atlantic Dawn, which once was Ireland’s biggest-ever trawler, stand to gain a bounty of at least €135 million from a series of decisions by successive governments about the rules pertaining to the Irish fleet.

Jawgap

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Bottom line is that the small guy has no clout. Big business can buy past them. One supertrawler can replace many smaller family boats. In the UK one Dutch boat has 23% of the quota , UK based inshore fishermen only get 4%. Just in case anyone thinks politicians care about local fishermen.

And even when no longer here they can still hoover up money :mad:
Fishing rights: ‘Big corporations win out, because they have clout’

Supertrawlers are not competing against single-deckers......and the supertrawlers don't come inshore.....they don't even fish offshore.....they fish off the continental shelf, in the mid-ocean.

.....and you seem to be overlooking the fact that there have been significant purchases of French trawlers (with associated French quota) by Irish individuals.

And the largest impediment to reforming fishery controls and fisheries management is fishermen, not politicians.

arctictree

I know two brothers fishing in a port near me. One owns a massive trawler and spends his time paying massive oil bills and catching millions of fish. The other takes anglers out for a days wreck fishing on his 10 man boat. He says they both earn about the same but his brother has massive machinery debts etc....The tourism is really the way to go and much more sustainable.

Capt'n Midnight

Jawgap wrote: »

Supertrawlers are not competing against single-deckers......and the supertrawlers don't come inshore.....they don't even fish offshore.....they fish off the continental shelf, in the mid-ocean.

The thread is about fishermen.

Like farming there's a lot more small farmers than big farmers.


There's no question that the larger boats are much more efficient, if the fish stocks were at pre industrial levels it's even possible a single one could land our entire quota. And that means if it's about catching fish then more fishermen will be unemployed every year as technology and efficiency improves.

If it's about jobs and livelihoods and supporting communities then smaller boats and restrictions are the way to go, but it's not.

Jawgap

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The thread is about fishermen.

Like farming there's a lot more small farmers than big farmers.


There's no question that the larger boats are much more efficient, if the fish stocks were at pre industrial levels it's even possible a single one could land our entire quota. And that means if it's about catching fish then more fishermen will be unemployed every year as technology and efficiency improves.

If it's about jobs and livelihoods and supporting communities then smaller boats and restrictions are the way to go, but it's not.

Most of the super-trawlers are fishing for species that are not for direct human consumption - they are fishing for fish to be processed into fishmeal for use in aquaculture and petfood. So they're not really competing with the 'smaller' guy on his mid-size boat and they're definitely not competing against the inshore and polyvalent boats.

And it's not about quantity - as fishermen are learning its about quality. The problem is the Irish lads are being slow to catch (pun intended ) on to that one. You pay a visit to a continental or Japanese fish market and you see how incredibly well they look after the catch - and that lets them charge top prices which supports the fisher's margins which makes artisanal, inshore and day-boats viable.

Put it this way - go to the continent and try to talk across fish boxes on the auction floor the way they do here (no auctions here any more, but you can do it in the warehouses) - and your life expectancy will probably come down to seconds But it'll also give you an idea as to why boats with almost minimal quotas are viable.

Shenshen

Jawgap wrote: »

Personally, I reckon if we ate more fish, there'd be more sustainable fishing!! Because we'd be more informed consumers which would mean we'd place more of a premium on quality which would encourage fishers to look after their catch better, giving them a higher margin which means less going after quantity and more going after quality........but I'd be pessimistic about that virtuous circle ever kicking off!

I'm not convinced about that, to be honest.
We consume an awful lot of chickens, but most of the "informed customers" want it as cheap as they can get it and don't really care all that much about quality - and certainly not about the quality of life the bird may have had.
If anything, we should look at making fish a special-occassion type of food, similar to game, to increase margin and move from quantity to quality.

c_man

I think we should start building a fleet immediately. Given our position, no reason we can't be raping and reaving from Denmark to Morocco.

Jawgap

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not convinced about that, to be honest.
We consume an awful lot of chickens, but most of the "informed customers" want it as cheap as they can get it and don't really care all that much about quality - and certainly not about the quality of life the bird may have had.
If anything, we should look at making fish a special-occassion type of food, similar to game, to increase margin and move from quantity to quality.

If we ate more fish we'd be more discriminating about what we buy - you see it in Spain, Italy etc They don't just consume fish at levels you'd never see here in Ireland they'll only by the good stuff and as a consequence the local fishing fleet have to provide quality fish - which means going after market sized stuff and looking after it when you land it, rather than going for volume.

And actually the problem is that Irish consumers only see fish as an "occasion" food - they'll happily pay upwards of €30 or even €50 for a small bit of monkfish tail in a restaurant but would never dream of paying half that amount to get twice as much fish and lash it under a grill at home (preferably with a bit of butter and freshly ground pepper :pac:).

Likewise something like hake - there's tonnes of the stuff knocking around but no one thinks of grabbing a few for dinner, or during the late summer getting a few mackerel for the bbq!

In general, the Irish are poorly informed consumers when it comes to their food (not just fish, but also poultry and beef) - and yes they'll nearly always go for price and convenience - but cheap food doesn't always offer the best value.

Shenshen

Jawgap wrote: »

If we ate more fish we'd be more discriminating about what we buy - you see it in Spain, Italy etc They don't just consume fish at levels you'd never see here in Ireland they'll only by the good stuff and as a consequence the local fishing fleet have to provide quality fish - which means going after market sized stuff and looking after it when you land it, rather than going for volume.

And actually the problem is that Irish consumers only see fish as an "occasion" food - they'll happily pay upwards of €30 or even €50 for a small bit of monkfish tail in a restaurant but would never dream of paying half that amount to get twice as much fish and lash it under a grill at home (preferably with a bit of butter and freshly ground pepper :pac:).

Likewise something like hake - there's tonnes of the stuff knocking around but no one thinks of grabbing a few for dinner, or during the late summer getting a few mackerel for the bbq!

In general, the Irish are poorly informed consumers when it comes to their food (not just fish, but also poultry and beef) - and yes they'll nearly always go for price and convenience - but cheap food doesn't always offer the best value.

I do suspect that's more of the general attitude to food in those countries, though, not just fish. Food has a different place in society, and is valued a lot more. Quality is actually sought.
Here, if you got people to eat more fish, you'd first see the sales of fish fingers go up, well before anyone would ever think of trying a red snapper. As you said, it's about education, but it's also about attitude. And many people in these latitudes still assume lots of food means good food.

seamus

The notion that we "traded" our fishing waters and betrayed Irish fishermen for access to the EU is emotive fantasy really.

We never had a big fishing fleet. We were never a fishing superpower. And we were never going to be - dirt poor, trading almost exclusively with another island nation (the UK), and with more coastline than we could ever hope to defend, our waters laid idle and practically unfished (by Irish vessels), and would continue to do so.

I'm not in favour of any kind of large scale fishing anyway, so I would rather our energies were focussed on using tourism as the income generator for coastal towns rather than wasting time & energy trying to build up a fishing industry.

Dr Crayfish

Jawgap wrote: »

If we ate more fish we'd be more discriminating about what we buy - you see it in Spain, Italy etc They don't just consume fish at levels you'd never see here in Ireland they'll only by the good stuff and as a consequence the local fishing fleet have to provide quality fish - which means going after market sized stuff and looking after it when you land it, rather than going for volume.

I really think you're romanticising how the Spanish eat, I can't speak for the Italians, but I spend a lot of time in Spain. They sell cheap crap imported from all over the world in their supermarkets to satisfy their desire for fish and seafood. In general I find the quality of food far better here than in Spain.

Jawgap

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I really think you're romanticising how the Spanish eat, I can't speak for the Italians, but I spend a lot of time in Spain. They sell cheap crap imported from all over the world in their supermarkets to satisfy their desire for fish and seafood. In general I find the quality of food far better here than in Spain.

Not really, I spend a fair bit of time there (Spain) and the differences in the regions is truly incredible - for example, I don't think we've anything remotely like the Basque Txokos - most Sunday afternoons in an Irish village rotate around sports (esp GAA), most Sunday afternoons in Basque villages and towns rotate around cooking competitions (and they take it very seriously!!)

Likewise Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, Rioja, even into Castille & Leon - they seem to, in my experience, take their food at lot more seriously than here. Which is not to say the likes of Marcadona don't also compete on price, but if you visit somewhere like the Mercamadrid fish market and try some of the stuff there that's standard practice here when it comes to handling fish, you'd be run pretty quickly. YMMV.

Likewise Italy - when you see how the catch is handled, iced and prepared for transport it puts our trade in context - ain't no one standing on boxes shovelling ice from a wheelbarrow or pumping fish out into road tankers.

In both countries (and others) its my experience that fishers see themselves are being in the food business, in Ireland fishers see themselves are being in the commodities business. Different business models and both can be reasonably successful, but I know which I prefer.

donegaLroad

Jawgap wrote: »

Seriously laughable if Killybegs is complaining about super trawlers after the respective sagas of the Veronica and the Atlantic Dawn.

Btw, It's quite possible the Killybegs boats had used up their quota or were managing their days at sea.

well what do you know.. the Atlantic Dawn was re-named and re-registered in the Nethrelands (2:00, but the whole video is worth a look)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjnW_OdTuIg