What George Hook said wasn't so bad after all, was it?

Hannibal_Smith

Deleted User wrote: »

It already is. We have laws that seek to provide a clear warning to men not to commit rape. Only a minority of men ignore that warning and commit rape.

The fact is that the law can only be a guide towards socially acceptable behaviour and some people will seek to avoid that guidance. Prisons worldwide are crowded with people who hold little respect for the law, and even then, rapists are a minority.

The problem is that you're trying to remove responsibility for a woman's choices from the equation and place all the responsibility on the men. Which is completely unreasonable.

It's funny in a rather sad way. Sexism/patriarchy/etc relegated women to rather limited roles in society. To "protect" them from the dangers in the world. To limit their choices and freedoms. For their own protection. :rolleyes: Your logic would promote such sexism to return because women can't be responsible for their own choices, and handle the dangers that exist in the world.

I rather like equality, and being an adult. I'm responsible for my own decisions. Just as others are responsible for theirs. If I am raped by another man (or woman or transg), my decisions/actions/behaviour make me responsible for it happening... and the rapist is responsible for his decisions. Knowing that, means I will undertake all reasonable actions/choices to ensure my personal safety. And women should also undertake to do the same.



One night stands are unlikely to ever stop. But people should enter into them with the full knowledge of the dangers that are possible.

Just as I know that going back to a female strangers place can contain any number of threats, but if I choose to go, then I'm accepting those possible risks.

It doesn't excuse the behaviour of those that seek to harm me. It simply means that I am responsible for my own choices.

That's not my logic at all. And I haven't made it a 'female thing, or said women should be anything. In fact, if you read back over my posts I've not made them gender specific, or at least tried not to, because not all rape victims are women. So, I am telling women nothing.

You have put a lot of supposing into my posts which simply isn't there. And you are completely incorrect. One night stands happen. That does not remove any choice from women. Rapists rape. The responsibility for the rape is 100% the rapists fault.

splinter65

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

So, no one night stands for anyone?

Absolutely have as many one night stands as you like.
But if you wifully render yourself incapable of looking after yourself by deliberately getting off your face then you will have to take personal responsibility for the consequences of putting yourself in harms way.
Very simple.

Vladimir Poontang

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Are you saying then that there should be no one night stands with strangers, just in case you get raped?

Should the focus not be, if you take some one back to your gaff, don't rape them?

Eh, that's already the focus, enshrined in law.

The focus should be on adults taking responsibility for their own safety.

If a person feels that rules out one night stands, so be it. That's entirely their decision.

Vladimir Poontang

If this wasn't so serious it would actually be hilarious.

The "do not rape" message is enshrined in law by virtue of it being illegal.

Yet many have some mental block where they think the "Do not rape" message is somehow incompatible with the equally important message of "take precautions for your own safety".

As the latter requires women (in the majority) to bear some level of responsibility for their actions it has been deemed a major faux pax amongst the social justice warrior brigade who would rather reiterate one stance that already has the weight of the law behind it, than ask women to be careful out there.

The stubbornness and stupidity is staggering not to mention fostering a false sense of reality upon impressionable young people where women can put themselves in harms way and absolve themselves of all responsibility in the event of things turning out bad.

If anything, these people are actually doing more harm than good.

Hannibal_Smith

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

That's not my logic at all. And I haven't made it a 'female thing, or said women should be anything. In fact, if you read back over my posts I've not made them gender specific, or at least tried not to, because not all rape victims are women. So, I am telling women nothing.

You have put a lot of supposing into my posts which simply isn't there. And you are completely incorrect. One night stands happen. That does not remove any choice from women. Rapists rape. The responsibility for the rape is 100% the rapists fault.

Yup. One night stands happen. Didn't suggest otherwise. And as for supposing a lot about your post, your last paragraph above supports everything I said previously.

This. The responsibility for the rape is 100% the rapists fault.

You're excusing any behaviour or choices that a woman makes prior to the rape. If she chooses to go into a dangerous area, it's not her fault that she's raped. If she picks up a stranger in a singles bar, goes back to his home, and gets raped, it's not her fault. Instead, the responsibility rests solely on the rapist.

Personally, I feel my way is better. Be aware of the risks involved, take precautions, and accept that you are responsible for the **** you get yourself into. Don't expect the world to be safe simply because you believe it should be.

kylith

So, we're back to the narrative of 'women should assume all men are rapists'?

splinter65 wrote: »

Absolutely have as many one night stands as you like.
But if you wifully render yourself incapable of looking after yourself by deliberately getting off your face then you will have to take personal responsibility for the consequences of putting yourself in harms way.
Very simple.

And what if you don't render yourself incapable through drink? What if you're teetotal? Do you have to take personal responsibility for a rapist's actions then?

coffee_cake

kylith wrote: »

So, we're back to the narrative of 'women should assume all men are rapists'?

No, no. Women should never assume any man is a rapist because that's unfair and stereotyping and if she does, and won't put out, she's a stuck up feminazi.
But if anything does happen to a woman, she should have assumed they were rapists and it's all her fault.
Hope that cleared things up

splinter65

kylith wrote: »

So, we're back to the narrative of 'women should assume all men are rapists'?



And what if you don't render yourself incapable through drink? What if you're teetotal? Do you have to take personal responsibility for a rapist's actions then?

But I’m not suggesting anyone take responsibility for anyone else’s actions.
Where did you get that impression?
I’m just stating the obvious.
That you take responsibility for your own actions and desicions.
Why is this a problem?

kylith

bluewolf wrote: »

No, no. Women should never assume any man is a rapist because that's unfair and stereotyping and if she does, and won't put out, she's a stuck up feminazi.
But if anything does happen to a woman, she should have assumed they were rapists and it's all her fault.
Hope that cleared things up

Thank you for clarifying

splinter65 wrote: »

But I’m not suggesting anyone take responsibility for anyone else’s actions.
Where did you get that impression?
I’m just stating the obvious.
That you take responsibility for your own actions and desicions.
Why is this a problem?

But you're saying that if someone gets drunk they have to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions, so if they are raped that would have to imply that they have to take responsibility for getting raped (as if being raped is a reasonable consequence for having a few beers).

Anyway, could you answer the question? If someone isn't drunk and gets raped by a date or someone they met in a pub/club do they still have to take responsibility?

Vladimir Poontang

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

What George Hook said was perfectly correct in that he was acknowledging that the world is a big bad place and advocating that people take precautions for their personal safety in lieu of that reality.

Unfortunately we now live in the age of the outraged social justice warrior where articles by leading feminists advocate that women should be able to walk naked down the street without consequences, completely oblivious to the actual world we live in.

We don't live in this fantasy utopia. It would be great if we did, but that is not the reality of the situation.

So George Hook made the mortal error of saying women should take precautions.

And was villified by opportunists in the media who seized the chance to silence one of their enemies.

Ditto for Kevin Myers.

Spot on.

splinter65

kylith wrote: »

Thank you for clarifying


But you're saying that if someone gets drunk they have to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions, so if they are raped that would have to imply that they have to take responsibility for getting raped (as if being raped is a reasonable consequence for having a few beers).

Anyway, could you answer the question? If someone isn't drunk and gets raped by a date or someone they met in a pub/club do they still have to take responsibility?

No, they have to accept that as a result of them getting bladdered to the point where there desicion making was impaired, they put themselves in a position where they became prey for a predator.
The rapist is responsible for the rape, obviously.
If you are sober and you are an adult and you leave a club, or a shop, or anywhere else willingly with a man who is a total stranger who has asked you to get into his car and/or come back to his house/hotel whatever, then your family and friends need to do something to help you because this behavior would show that something is very worrying.
If your daughter told you off a morning that she had got chatting to some man in the bus queue and he had asked her to go back to his flat within minutes and she had happily agreed, would you not be worried about her mental state?
Once again, if you are raped, irregardless of how the rape cane about, it is the rapist who is to blame.
Edited to add:
Your point about rape being a consequence of “having a few beers”
If you are so drunk after “a few beers” that you have lost the ability to look after yourself then is it not reasonable to suggest that you just don’t drink the “few beers”?
If after a “few beers” you are inclined to do things like, say, jump in front of moving vehicles “for a laugh” then if you end up in hospital with a skull fracture is it also ok to lay all the responsibility on the vehicle operator , because , obviously I should be allowed to get ratarsed and run in front of cars, it’s up to the driver to precipitate my actions and take precautions?