Consumption of alcohol on a non-licenced premises

Carnmore

What is the law on customers bringing their own wine to consume in a cafe - is their any procedure / criteria the cafe owner has to follow for it to be legal?

Thanks in advance

Peregrinus

If the cafe is not itself licensed, I'm pretty sure it's not legal. There's no procedure you can follow to make it legal (other than applying for and obtaining a license, of course).

If it's a premises licensed for the consumption of alchohol then so far as I know it would be legal without any special procedure being followed. But, from a commercial point of view, the licensee may be reluctant; he pays a lot of money to have a licence because he makes good money out of selling drink; every bottle of wine that he lets a customer bring in and consume is one bottle less that he might sell to a customer.

jimmycrackcorm

I've been to a few restaurants in Dublin that aren't licensed for alcohol and allow customers to bring their own drinks so it's not unknown.

In fact it's a great thing as I and my companions were able to bring our favorite wines at a fraction of the price we would pay in a licensed premise.

But I'm curious about the legalities as I don't see how the difference is for such a restaurant compared to bringing alcohol to a persons house who is cooking a meal. Doesn't the law only apply to the sale or provision of alcohol?

Peregrinus

The Intoxicating Liquor Acts regulate both the sale and the consumption of drink so, yeah, there's definitely scope in there for a rule which forbids commercial operators from allowing their premises to be used for the consumption of alcohol, unless suitably licensed. But the Acts are a sprawling mess and I don't pretend to know my way around them, so I can't at this point put my finger on a provision which does this. But it has always been my fairly strong impression that there is such a provision; otherwise what would stop me, e.g., bringing my beer into the cinema to enjoy with the film, into McDonald's to try and mask the revolting taste of the food sold there, into the social welfare office to while away the hours while I'm waiting for my number to come up?

In many cases, of course, what would stop me is the reluctance of the occupier of the premises to allow it, but there are obvious instances - e.g. the cinema case - where allowing people to bring in drink could conceivably be fine, or even desirable, from the occupier's point of view, and yet it never happens. There has to be a reason for that.

Allowing it opens up space for creative arguments from people who say "Selling drink? Us? Heavens, no! We're just renting space in which people can consume their own drink (which we obligingly store for them until they require it)." And the revenue have always discouraged that kind of evasion, so I don't think they'd open up the possibilities by allowing the consumption of drink on unlicensed commercial premises. So, even though I can't find the provision which bans this, I still have a pretty strong instinct that, yup, it's banned. But I'm happy to be corrected by someone who knows their way around the licencsing acts better than I do (which is practically everybody).

As for the cafes that allow it, I don't know whether they have a restaurant certificate which they are not otherwise using to sell drink, or whether they have some exemption that gets around the rule, or whether they are in fact operating in breach of the rules.

Sesame

I remember this came up recently in regards to the new licencing laws. Hair salons often give out wine or prosecco now instead of tea and coffee and licenced premises were giving out.
I can't remember if it came within the scope of the new regulations though.

Carnmore

Thank you. Has anyone got a definitive answer on this?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Carawaystick

Peregrinus wrote: »

otherwise what would stop me, e.g., bringing my beer into the cinema to enjoy with the film,

You'ld have to wee, and miss bits of the film you could just pause if you bittorrented it?:rolleyes:

Carawaystick

More seriously, I'd look at the byelaws preventing gatting. if it is different drinking your beer in a public park, a private park ( the zoo say) a private building anyone can enter, a private building admission is restricted, a home

lifeandtimes

Peregrinus wrote: »

e.g. the cinema case - where allowing people to bring in drink could conceivably be fine, or even desirable, from the occupier's point of view, and yet it never happens. There has to be a reason for that

Not sure when the last time you went to the cinema was but the majority of cinemas sell alcohol now and I and many other people bring drink to the cinema, not 6 packs now but a shoulder that's mixed in with the coke you buy at the cinema

Peregrinus

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Not sure when the last time you went to the cinema was but the majority of cinemas sell alcohol now . . .

If they're selling alcohol, then they certainly have a licence.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

coylemj

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Intoxicating Liquor Acts regulate both the sale and the consumption of drink so, yeah, there's definitely scope in there for a rule which forbids commercial operators from allowing their premises to be used for the consumption of alcohol, unless suitably licensed.

There may be 'scope' for it but surely the acts regulate the consumption of alcohol on licensed premises and simply forbid the sale on unlicensed premises?

Say I meet a gang for a coffee in a local cafe. One of the party purchases a slice of cake and asks the proprietor if she can drink a wee bottle of wine she bought in the off licence across the road. What law would be broken if she was allowed to and did so?

Peregrinus

coylemj wrote: »

There may be 'scope' for it but surely the acts regulate the consumption of alcohol on licensed premises and simply forbid the sale on unlicensed premises?

Say I meet a gang for a coffee in a local cafe. One of the party purchases a slice of cake and asks the proprietor if she can drink a wee bottle of wine she bought in the off licence across the road. What law would be broken if she was allowed to and did so?

That's a very good question, and one to which I don't have an an authoritative answer. And yet I have a strong sense that there are regulations which forbid or control this. A couple of thoughts:

1. If there were a general right to do this, wouldn't all unlicensed restaurants and cafes routinely do this, and have done it for years? The ones that didn't would be at an obvious competitive disadvantage.

2. If there were a general right to do this, wouldn't we expect objections from restaurants with licences/certificates, to the effect they face unfair competition from unlicensed, non-excise paying drinking premises? And wouldn't we expect the guards to be pointing out that, as the premises are unlicensed, they don't have the same degree of supervision/control/right to object if the level or nature of the drinking there is problematic?

3. It would open up obvious scope for evasion by people who own both an off-licence or grocery, and an adjacent cafe or restaurant. Or by co-operation between two owners of such premises. Over the years people have been very creative in attempting to evade the licensing regime, and the Revenue have been pretty thorough in cutting off possible evasions.

So, I could be wrong, but if I had to bet I'd be betting that, yes, there is a provision tucked away in the spaghetti junction that is the Licensing Acts which controls, restricts or forbids this practice. But you're going to have to wait for someone who actually knows something about licensing law for authoritative confirmation, or authoritative refutation, of my hunch.

Peregrinus

On further research, I think the relevant provision (or, at least, a relevant provision) may be Intoxicating Liquor Act 1962 s. 26. S. 26 deals with “unlicensed drinking premises” which are, basically, premises that don’t have an on-licence and are not registered clubs and that are “used or made available for the consumption of intoxicated liquor by persons resorting to them”. You may not drink on unlicensed premises unless you are:

- the occupier of the premises

- a family member of the occupier

- a resident in the premises

- someone who works on the premises

- a bona fide private guest of one of the above.

If you breach this rule, then the occupier of the premises is guilty of an offence.

There’s an defence for (unregistered) clubs established for purposes other than consuming liquor - e.g. a sports club. So long as the liquor is provided by the members for consumption by the members, they bring it in within 12 hours before consuming it (i.e. it’s not stored there) and this isn’t something that “habitually or frequently” goes on, then there’s no offence.

So that looks like it. If I run a cinema, say, and I allow patrons to bring in and consume their own beer while watching the films, my cinema becomes an “unlicensed drinking premises” and i’m guilty of an offence under s. 26. Same goes if I have a restaurant (and don’t have any kind of on-licence for it).

At least, that’s what it looks like to me.

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

If they're selling alcohol, then they certainly have a licence.

I get the impression cinemas use the theatre rules.

Peregrinus wrote: »

1. If there were a general right to do this, wouldn't all unlicensed restaurants and cafes routinely do this, and have done it for years?

Not every restaurant proprietor will want people drinking on the premises.

lifeandtimes

Peregrinus wrote: »

a bona fide private guest of one of the above.

Isn't everyone technically a guest of the owner?

Or what's to stop them saying everyone is a guest but still pay the owner as they don't want to do their friend a diservice?

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

I get the impression cinemas use the theatre rules.

Do theatres need a licence or certificate of some kind?

Victor wrote: »

Not every restaurant proprietor will want people drinking on the premises.

True. But I think many would.

Peregrinus

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Isn't everyone technically a guest of the owner?

A private guest. And, now, I think the courts would have no difficulty in saying that the parliamentary intention was that "private guest" in this provision was not intended to include a customer or patron of a business.

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Or what's to stop them saying everyone is a guest but still pay the owner as they don't want to do their friend a diservice?

Nothing will stop them saying that. But it's a little unrealistic to hope that the courts will accept it. There's a long history of people trying to recharacterise behaviour in unrealistic ways to get around the licensing acts, and the courts going through them for a short cut.

- "I'm not selling drink! I'm renting a glass, and filling it for free!". No, mate, you're selling drink.

- "I'm selling an apple, and providing a free glass of beer as a marketing offer!" No, still selling drink.

If somebody comes to your business premises, and pays you for some goods or services (a film, a meal) they're not a private guest; they're a customer or patron. They don't magically become a private guest because they bring a bottle of beer with them and drink it. I doubt that the courts will have too much difficulty seeing this.

GM228

Peregrinus wrote: »

Do theatres need a licence or certificate of some kind?

Yes, they need a Publican’s Licence (Ordinary) - Theatre.

Victor wrote: »

I get the impression cinemas use the theatre rules.

Only Vue cinema in Liffey Valley hold a Publican’s Licence (Ordinary) - Theatre.

All other cinemas which are licenced hold Wine Retailer's On Licence's with the exception of a cinema in Oldcastle, Co. Meath which has a Publican's Licence (7-Day Ordinary).

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

L1011

GM228 wrote: »

Only Vue cinema in Liffey Valley hold a Publican’s Licence (Ordinary) - Theatre.

All other cinemas which are licenced hold Wine Retailer's On Licence's with the exception of a cinema in Oldcastle, Co. Meath which has a Publican's Licence (7-Day Ordinary).

Not correct. Multiple other Dublin cinemas hold a Publican's Licence (Ordinary) - Theatre.

Odeon Blanchardstown, Coolock, Charlestown, Point Village; Omniplex Rathmines; Lighthouse Smithfield; Movies@Swords, @Dundrum and the IFI.

Also the "Cinema" in Oldcastle isn't a cinema anymore I'm pretty sure!

This is an awful time of year to look at Revenue's licence lists if you were looking at the current one, as the renewal date was last month and many licences are not renewed yet. I do have national lists from September, somewhere; but only the Dublin one to hand as its all my sphere of interest covers.

lifeandtimes

Fred Swanson wrote: »

How do the corkage places get away with it?

Keep schtum maybe?

I don't know many places that actually do it and if they do its most certainly by word of mouth.

However I know leisure plex run a byob bowling night and the don't sell alcohol or charge a corkage fee so maybe we can start there?

coylemj

lifeandtimes wrote: »

However I know leisure plex run a byob bowling night and the don't sell alcohol or charge a corkage fee so maybe we can start there?

+1 their website has 'BYOB' splashed on several pages and there's no sign of a bar area in their publicity photos which suggests they have no liquor licence of any kind.

http://leisureplex.ie/

But the act quoted by Peregrinus in post #15 would seem to apply and if the premises has no on-licence, that sort of carry-on would be illegal. It appears that if the premises does have a licence (e.g. wine licence in a cafe) then BYOB is fine but not if the premises is unlicensed.

Mrs OBumble

How many cafes which are open during normal drinking hours don't hold licenses? The only ones I can think of in Galway are chipper / chinese / charcoal-grill type places, which most likely don't want the hassle of drunks there anyways.

GM228

L1011 wrote: »

Not correct. Multiple other Dublin cinemas hold a Publican's Licence (Ordinary) - Theatre.

Odeon Blanchardstown, Coolock, Charlestown, Point Village; Omniplex Rathmines; Lighthouse Smithfield; Movies@Swords, @Dundrum and the IFI.

Also the "Cinema" in Oldcastle isn't a cinema anymore I'm pretty sure!

This is an awful time of year to look at Revenue's licence lists if you were looking at the current one, as the renewal date was last month and many licences are not renewed yet. I do have national lists from September, somewhere; but only the Dublin one to hand as its all my sphere of interest covers.

Fair enough, but I have this months issued national list which they are not on, and considering that all licences expire on September 30th unless they renewed later than October 31st then they currently don't hold such licences*, renewing late does not give a retrospective right to sell alcohol from October 1st.

* there is an exception where there is an issue relating to tax clearance certificates.

Yes you are correct about the Castle Cinema, my bad, it's actually a theatre - odd that the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht's National Inventory of Architectural Heritage lists the building as a "storage building", perhaps it needs an update.

L1011

GM228 wrote: »

Fair enough, but I have this months issued national list which they are not on, and considering that all licences expire on September 30th unless they renewed later than October 31st then they currently don't hold such licences*, renewing late does not give a retrospective right to sell alcohol from October 1st.

* there is an exception where there is an issue relating to tax clearance certificates.

Yes you are correct about the Castle Cinema, my bad, it's actually a theatre - odd that the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht's National Inventory of Architectural Heritage lists the building as a "storage building", perhaps it needs an update.

There were 996 Publican or specialist licences that allow sale to the public (aerodrome, national sporting arena etc etc) licences on the September 30th list in Dublin. There are 650 in the October 31st list. There will be something approaching that 996 or above (there's been a lot of new openings this last while) by September 30th 2018

Either the are a LOT of tax clearance cert issues or there is something else going on - non prosecution for late renewal or whatever.

There's also a small few pubs including one very famous one that haven't been on the register in over a year, which I suspect is an admin error on generating the list and nothing more dodgy. The list was missing most of D7 and D8 one month until I requested it be fixed!

L1011

Something sort of on-topic - is a Railway Refreshment Room licence holder allowed serve non-passengers; and do they have different opening times to Publican licences?

There are two premises which definitely operate as a pub, without even entrances to the railway station they are physically adjoined to.

Stephen15

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How many cafes which are open during normal drinking hours don't hold licenses? The only ones I can think of in Galway are chipper / chinese / charcoal-grill type places, which most likely don't want the hassle of drunks there anyways.

Internet cafès

Losty Dublin

L1011 wrote: »

Something sort of on-topic - is a Railway Refreshment Room licence holder allowed serve non-passengers; and do they have different opening times to Publican licences?

There are two premises which definitely operate as a pub, without even entrances to the railway station they are physically adjoined to.

Under the various exemptions and licences that railway stations have to serve alcohol, they may only serve bonafide passengers and their hours of trading can be worked around timetables. To serve to non passengers, a regular licence is required and has been done before.

L1011

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Under the various exemptions and licences that railway stations have to serve alcohol, they may only serve bonafide passengers and their hours of trading can be worked around timetables. To serve to non passengers, a regular licence is required and has been done before.

Revenue data issues excepted, the premises I'm referring to do not appear to have any further licences.