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Consumption of alcohol on a non-licenced premises

  • 26-11-2017 8:10pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 407 ✭✭


    What is the law on customers bringing their own wine to consume in a cafe - is their any procedure / criteria the cafe owner has to follow for it to be legal?

    Thanks in advance


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,086 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If the cafe is not itself licensed, I'm pretty sure it's not legal. There's no procedure you can follow to make it legal (other than applying for and obtaining a license, of course).

    If it's a premises licensed for the consumption of alchohol then so far as I know it would be legal without any special procedure being followed. But, from a commercial point of view, the licensee may be reluctant; he pays a lot of money to have a licence because he makes good money out of selling drink; every bottle of wine that he lets a customer bring in and consume is one bottle less that he might sell to a customer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,387 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    I've been to a few restaurants in Dublin that aren't licensed for alcohol and allow customers to bring their own drinks so it's not unknown.

    In fact it's a great thing as I and my companions were able to bring our favorite wines at a fraction of the price we would pay in a licensed premise.

    But I'm curious about the legalities as I don't see how the difference is for such a restaurant compared to bringing alcohol to a persons house who is cooking a meal. Doesn't the law only apply to the sale or provision of alcohol?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,086 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The Intoxicating Liquor Acts regulate both the sale and the consumption of drink so, yeah, there's definitely scope in there for a rule which forbids commercial operators from allowing their premises to be used for the consumption of alcohol, unless suitably licensed. But the Acts are a sprawling mess and I don't pretend to know my way around them, so I can't at this point put my finger on a provision which does this. But it has always been my fairly strong impression that there is such a provision; otherwise what would stop me, e.g., bringing my beer into the cinema to enjoy with the film, into McDonald's to try and mask the revolting taste of the food sold there, into the social welfare office to while away the hours while I'm waiting for my number to come up?

    In many cases, of course, what would stop me is the reluctance of the occupier of the premises to allow it, but there are obvious instances - e.g. the cinema case - where allowing people to bring in drink could conceivably be fine, or even desirable, from the occupier's point of view, and yet it never happens. There has to be a reason for that.

    Allowing it opens up space for creative arguments from people who say "Selling drink? Us? Heavens, no! We're just renting space in which people can consume their own drink (which we obligingly store for them until they require it)." And the revenue have always discouraged that kind of evasion, so I don't think they'd open up the possibilities by allowing the consumption of drink on unlicensed commercial premises. So, even though I can't find the provision which bans this, I still have a pretty strong instinct that, yup, it's banned. But I'm happy to be corrected by someone who knows their way around the licencsing acts better than I do (which is practically everybody).

    As for the cafes that allow it, I don't know whether they have a restaurant certificate which they are not otherwise using to sell drink, or whether they have some exemption that gets around the rule, or whether they are in fact operating in breach of the rules.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭Sesame


    I remember this came up recently in regards to the new licencing laws. Hair salons often give out wine or prosecco now instead of tea and coffee and licenced premises were giving out.
    I can't remember if it came within the scope of the new regulations though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 407 ✭✭Carnmore


    Thank you. Has anyone got a definitive answer on this?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    otherwise what would stop me, e.g., bringing my beer into the cinema to enjoy with the film,

    You'ld have to wee, and miss bits of the film you could just pause if you bittorrented it?:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    More seriously, I'd look at the byelaws preventing gatting. if it is different drinking your beer in a public park, a private park ( the zoo say) a private building anyone can enter, a private building admission is restricted, a home


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    e.g. the cinema case - where allowing people to bring in drink could conceivably be fine, or even desirable, from the occupier's point of view, and yet it never happens. There has to be a reason for that

    Not sure when the last time you went to the cinema was but the majority of cinemas sell alcohol now and I and many other people bring drink to the cinema, not 6 packs now but a shoulder that's mixed in with the coke you buy at the cinema


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,086 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Not sure when the last time you went to the cinema was but the majority of cinemas sell alcohol now . . .
    If they're selling alcohol, then they certainly have a licence.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,650 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The Intoxicating Liquor Acts regulate both the sale and the consumption of drink so, yeah, there's definitely scope in there for a rule which forbids commercial operators from allowing their premises to be used for the consumption of alcohol, unless suitably licensed.

    There may be 'scope' for it :confused: but surely the acts regulate the consumption of alcohol on licensed premises and simply forbid the sale on unlicensed premises?

    Say I meet a gang for a coffee in a local cafe. One of the party purchases a slice of cake and asks the proprietor if she can drink a wee bottle of wine she bought in the off licence across the road. What law would be broken if she was allowed to and did so?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,086 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    coylemj wrote: »
    There may be 'scope' for it :confused: but surely the acts regulate the consumption of alcohol on licensed premises and simply forbid the sale on unlicensed premises?

    Say I meet a gang for a coffee in a local cafe. One of the party purchases a slice of cake and asks the proprietor if she can drink a wee bottle of wine she bought in the off licence across the road. What law would be broken if she was allowed to and did so?
    That's a very good question, and one to which I don't have an an authoritative answer. And yet I have a strong sense that there are regulations which forbid or control this. A couple of thoughts:

    1. If there were a general right to do this, wouldn't all unlicensed restaurants and cafes routinely do this, and have done it for years? The ones that didn't would be at an obvious competitive disadvantage.

    2. If there were a general right to do this, wouldn't we expect objections from restaurants with licences/certificates, to the effect they face unfair competition from unlicensed, non-excise paying drinking premises? And wouldn't we expect the guards to be pointing out that, as the premises are unlicensed, they don't have the same degree of supervision/control/right to object if the level or nature of the drinking there is problematic?

    3. It would open up obvious scope for evasion by people who own both an off-licence or grocery, and an adjacent cafe or restaurant. Or by co-operation between two owners of such premises. Over the years people have been very creative in attempting to evade the licensing regime, and the Revenue have been pretty thorough in cutting off possible evasions.

    So, I could be wrong, but if I had to bet I'd be betting that, yes, there is a provision tucked away in the spaghetti junction that is the Licensing Acts which controls, restricts or forbids this practice. But you're going to have to wait for someone who actually knows something about licensing law for authoritative confirmation, or authoritative refutation, of my hunch.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,086 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    On further research, I think the relevant provision (or, at least, a relevant provision) may be Intoxicating Liquor Act 1962 s. 26. S. 26 deals with “unlicensed drinking premises” which are, basically, premises that don’t have an on-licence and are not registered clubs and that are “used or made available for the consumption of intoxicated liquor by persons resorting to them”. You may not drink on unlicensed premises unless you are:

    - the occupier of the premises

    - a family member of the occupier

    - a resident in the premises

    - someone who works on the premises

    - a bona fide private guest of one of the above.

    If you breach this rule, then the occupier of the premises is guilty of an offence.

    There’s an defence for (unregistered) clubs established for purposes other than consuming liquor - e.g. a sports club. So long as the liquor is provided by the members for consumption by the members, they bring it in within 12 hours before consuming it (i.e. it’s not stored there) and this isn’t something that “habitually or frequently” goes on, then there’s no offence.

    So that looks like it. If I run a cinema, say, and I allow patrons to bring in and consume their own beer while watching the films, my cinema becomes an “unlicensed drinking premises” and i’m guilty of an offence under s. 26. Same goes if I have a restaurant (and don’t have any kind of on-licence for it).

    At least, that’s what it looks like to me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,610 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If they're selling alcohol, then they certainly have a licence.
    I get the impression cinemas use the theatre rules.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    1. If there were a general right to do this, wouldn't all unlicensed restaurants and cafes routinely do this, and have done it for years?
    Not every restaurant proprietor will want people drinking on the premises.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    a bona fide private guest of one of the above.

    Isn't everyone technically a guest of the owner?

    Or what's to stop them saying everyone is a guest but still pay the owner as they don't want to do their friend a diservice?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,086 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Victor wrote: »
    I get the impression cinemas use the theatre rules.
    Do theatres need a licence or certificate of some kind?
    Victor wrote: »
    Not every restaurant proprietor will want people drinking on the premises.
    True. But I think many would.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,086 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Isn't everyone technically a guest of the owner?
    A private guest. And, now, I think the courts would have no difficulty in saying that the parliamentary intention was that "private guest" in this provision was not intended to include a customer or patron of a business.
    Or what's to stop them saying everyone is a guest but still pay the owner as they don't want to do their friend a diservice?
    Nothing will stop them saying that. But it's a little unrealistic to hope that the courts will accept it. There's a long history of people trying to recharacterise behaviour in unrealistic ways to get around the licensing acts, and the courts going through them for a short cut.

    - "I'm not selling drink! I'm renting a glass, and filling it for free!". No, mate, you're selling drink.

    - "I'm selling an apple, and providing a free glass of beer as a marketing offer!" No, still selling drink.

    If somebody comes to your business premises, and pays you for some goods or services (a film, a meal) they're not a private guest; they're a customer or patron. They don't magically become a private guest because they bring a bottle of beer with them and drink it. I doubt that the courts will have too much difficulty seeing this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Do theatres need a licence or certificate of some kind?

    Yes, they need a Publican’s Licence (Ordinary) - Theatre.


    Victor wrote: »
    I get the impression cinemas use the theatre rules.

    Only Vue cinema in Liffey Valley hold a Publican’s Licence (Ordinary) - Theatre.

    All other cinemas which are licenced hold Wine Retailer's On Licence's with the exception of a cinema in Oldcastle, Co. Meath which has a Publican's Licence (7-Day Ordinary).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,581 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    GM228 wrote: »

    Only Vue cinema in Liffey Valley hold a Publican’s Licence (Ordinary) - Theatre.

    All other cinemas which are licenced hold Wine Retailer's On Licence's with the exception of a cinema in Oldcastle, Co. Meath which has a Publican's Licence (7-Day Ordinary).

    Not correct. Multiple other Dublin cinemas hold a Publican's Licence (Ordinary) - Theatre.

    Odeon Blanchardstown, Coolock, Charlestown, Point Village; Omniplex Rathmines; Lighthouse Smithfield; Movies@Swords, @Dundrum and the IFI.

    Also the "Cinema" in Oldcastle isn't a cinema anymore I'm pretty sure!

    This is an awful time of year to look at Revenue's licence lists if you were looking at the current one, as the renewal date was last month and many licences are not renewed yet. I do have national lists from September, somewhere; but only the Dublin one to hand as its all my sphere of interest covers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    How do the corkage places get away with it?

    Keep schtum maybe?

    I don't know many places that actually do it and if they do its most certainly by word of mouth.

    However I know leisure plex run a byob bowling night and the don't sell alcohol or charge a corkage fee so maybe we can start there?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,650 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    However I know leisure plex run a byob bowling night and the don't sell alcohol or charge a corkage fee so maybe we can start there?

    +1 their website has 'BYOB' splashed on several pages and there's no sign of a bar area in their publicity photos which suggests they have no liquor licence of any kind.

    http://leisureplex.ie/

    But the act quoted by Peregrinus in post #15 would seem to apply and if the premises has no on-licence, that sort of carry-on would be illegal. It appears that if the premises does have a licence (e.g. wine licence in a cafe) then BYOB is fine but not if the premises is unlicensed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,359 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    How many cafes which are open during normal drinking hours don't hold licenses? The only ones I can think of in Galway are chipper / chinese / charcoal-grill type places, which most likely don't want the hassle of drunks there anyways.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    L1011 wrote: »
    Not correct. Multiple other Dublin cinemas hold a Publican's Licence (Ordinary) - Theatre.

    Odeon Blanchardstown, Coolock, Charlestown, Point Village; Omniplex Rathmines; Lighthouse Smithfield; Movies@Swords, @Dundrum and the IFI.

    Also the "Cinema" in Oldcastle isn't a cinema anymore I'm pretty sure!

    This is an awful time of year to look at Revenue's licence lists if you were looking at the current one, as the renewal date was last month and many licences are not renewed yet. I do have national lists from September, somewhere; but only the Dublin one to hand as its all my sphere of interest covers.

    Fair enough, but I have this months issued national list which they are not on, and considering that all licences expire on September 30th unless they renewed later than October 31st then they currently don't hold such licences*, renewing late does not give a retrospective right to sell alcohol from October 1st.

    * there is an exception where there is an issue relating to tax clearance certificates.

    Yes you are correct about the Castle Cinema, my bad, it's actually a theatre - odd that the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht's National Inventory of Architectural Heritage lists the building as a "storage building", perhaps it needs an update.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,581 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    GM228 wrote: »
    Fair enough, but I have this months issued national list which they are not on, and considering that all licences expire on September 30th unless they renewed later than October 31st then they currently don't hold such licences*, renewing late does not give a retrospective right to sell alcohol from October 1st.

    * there is an exception where there is an issue relating to tax clearance certificates.

    Yes you are correct about the Castle Cinema, my bad, it's actually a theatre - odd that the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht's National Inventory of Architectural Heritage lists the building as a "storage building", perhaps it needs an update.

    There were 996 Publican or specialist licences that allow sale to the public (aerodrome, national sporting arena etc etc) licences on the September 30th list in Dublin. There are 650 in the October 31st list. There will be something approaching that 996 or above (there's been a lot of new openings this last while) by September 30th 2018

    Either the are a LOT of tax clearance cert issues or there is something else going on - non prosecution for late renewal or whatever.

    There's also a small few pubs including one very famous one that haven't been on the register in over a year, which I suspect is an admin error on generating the list and nothing more dodgy. The list was missing most of D7 and D8 one month until I requested it be fixed!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,581 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Something sort of on-topic - is a Railway Refreshment Room licence holder allowed serve non-passengers; and do they have different opening times to Publican licences?

    There are two premises which definitely operate as a pub, without even entrances to the railway station they are physically adjoined to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    How many cafes which are open during normal drinking hours don't hold licenses? The only ones I can think of in Galway are chipper / chinese / charcoal-grill type places, which most likely don't want the hassle of drunks there anyways.

    Internet cafès


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,260 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    L1011 wrote: »
    Something sort of on-topic - is a Railway Refreshment Room licence holder allowed serve non-passengers; and do they have different opening times to Publican licences?

    There are two premises which definitely operate as a pub, without even entrances to the railway station they are physically adjoined to.

    Under the various exemptions and licences that railway stations have to serve alcohol, they may only serve bonafide passengers and their hours of trading can be worked around timetables. To serve to non passengers, a regular licence is required and has been done before.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,581 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Under the various exemptions and licences that railway stations have to serve alcohol, they may only serve bonafide passengers and their hours of trading can be worked around timetables. To serve to non passengers, a regular licence is required and has been done before.

    Revenue data issues excepted, the premises I'm referring to do not appear to have any further licences.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,260 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    L1011 wrote: »
    Revenue data issues excepted, the premises I'm referring to do not appear to have any further licences.

    That too is a possibility :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Under the various exemptions and licences that railway stations have to serve alcohol, they may only serve bonafide passengers and their hours of trading can be worked around timetables. To serve to non passengers, a regular licence is required and has been done before.

    Connolly station has a bar before the turnstiles.

    Does that fall into that category or does it have a license?

    Nothing stopping someone walking into the station and buying a drink and leaving


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Connolly station has a bar before the turnstiles.

    Does that fall into that category or does it have a license?

    Nothing stopping someone walking into the station and buying a drink and leaving

    Also if people were made to produce a valid train ticket then surely a Leap card which many people have would surely be adequate as it is a valid train travel train ticket, but someone could leave the bar and not use the leap card.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,260 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Also if people were made to produce a valid train ticket then surely a Leap card which many people have would surely be adequate as it is a valid train travel train ticket, but someone could leave the bar and not use the leap card.

    A Leapcard is an e-wallet and not a ticket. It doesn't hold a ticket for specific trips, which is what a transport station barman requires to serve you on Good Friday.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,581 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A Leapcard is an e-wallet and not a ticket. It doesn't hold a ticket for specific trips, which is what a transport station barman requires to serve you on Good Friday.

    Mine contains a ticket (for significantly over the distance limit) permanently. Not the norm, of course.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,202 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    There are barber shops giving free beer to clients.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,581 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    There are barber shops giving free beer to clients.

    And sometimes well before serving hours at that - having had a bottle of Molson handed at 8am getting a pre-wedding haircut last year!

    I suspect there's an awful lot of cases of borderline or outright illegality when it comes to alcohol legislation that is basically just allowed due to a lack of interest in pursuing it and revealing how odd and old our legislation is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,086 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don't think it's a lack of interest, still less a desire to avoid revealing "how odd and old our legislation is". The latter is already well-known.

    It's long been the case that the authorities are, um, judiciously selective in their application of the licensing laws. If what you're doing on a small scale is not causing public order problems, a loss of revenue, unfair competition for licensees or any other of a list of problems, then they may leave well enough alone.

    In other words, if your barber gives you a bottle of beer, no problem. If he gives you so much beer that you leave his premises drunk, or that people are coming to the premises primarily for the beer and not for the haircuts, or if he sells you a bottle of beer, problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    L1011 wrote: »
    Something sort of on-topic - is a Railway Refreshment Room licence holder allowed serve non-passengers; and do they have different opening times to Publican licences?

    There are two premises which definitely operate as a pub, without even entrances to the railway station they are physically adjoined to.

    As pointed out they are only supposed to serve bona fide passengers who have travelled or hold tickets entitling them to travel at least 10 miles (or ship passengers who have a ticket for at least 50 miles).

    Having looked at this before and reviewed the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1927 and the Licensing (Ireland) Act 1902 I was of the opinion that they could serve both:-

    (a) any customer within the allowed hours of an ordinary publican licence, and

    (b) any bona fide rail/ship passenger at any time/day subject to the 10/50 mile rule.

    But previous correspondence with Revenue suggests that only (b) applies, in my opinion when you read the actual legislation applicable nothing restricts them to selling to passengers only, rather that the bona fide passengers are the only ones allowed to avail of the unrestricted hours - if Revenue are correct it raises the question as to how Gerry Robinson gets away with it at Raphoe. He used a clause in the 1902 Act to actually get his licence, but would (if Revenue are correct) be in breach of the licence as his railway is only 2.8 miles long.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,086 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Perhaps he sells tickets that entitle you to two return journeys for a total distance of 11.2 miles!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't think it's a lack of interest, still less a desire to avoid revealing "how odd and old our legislation is". The latter is already well-known.

    It's long been the case that the authorities are, um, judiciously selective in their application of the licensing laws. If what you're doing on a small scale is not causing public order problems, a loss of revenue, unfair competition for licensees or any other of a list of problems, then they may leave well enough alone.

    In other words, if your barber gives you a bottle of beer, no problem. If he gives you so much beer that you leave his premises drunk, or that people are coming to the premises primarily for the beer and not for the haircuts, or if he sells you a bottle of beer, problem.

    I think this pretty much sums it up.

    Getting a beer with a haircut as an added value service for free= Not so bad

    Going to get s haircut and leaving gee eyed every time = really bad.

    Byob at a cafe where most people will have one or 2= seems to be acceptable

    Bringing a keg to cafe and doing handstands on it to chug and leaving flutered, more than likely drunk in public is wrong


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,650 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    GM228 wrote: »
    As pointed out they are only supposed to serve bona fide passengers who have travelled or hold tickets entitling them to travel at least 10 miles ...

    +1 people used to go to the old MGWR station in Athlone on a Good Friday, buy a one-way ticket for Moate (10 miles down the Mullingar line, since closed), then they'd hit the bar and drink all day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    coylemj wrote: »
    +1 people used to go to the old MGWR station in Athlone on a Good Friday, buy a one-way ticket for Moate (10 miles down the Mullingar line, since closed), then they'd hit the bar and drink all day.

    Could you not go into to the bar in Connolly Station with a ticket to Clontarf Road


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    No. It had to be at least 10 miles away.

    Will The barman bother though?

    I went from Connolly to wexford and got a pint before the train and they never asked me



    Mod
    Post amended. Pls be polite on this foru
    m


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes




    Mod
    Post amended. Pls be polite on this foru
    m

    Apologies,noted on further posts

    mod
    ok thanks


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